Eldar and objectives

[Stormbrow II]

I cant read that site, I dont agree with 3/4 of his articles. Im sure other people find him useful, but for the most part I find him to be a poor pundit, and his ideas lead to success only in a particular metagame.

I'm one of the people that's found his stuff useful, especially his thinking about Tau. Can I ask what particular metagame you're on about because if its mech-heavy he's usually spot-on in fairness to him?

 

Phoenix Lords are situational at best and not something I'd rate above Eldrad, Farseers, Yriel, Avatars and Autarchs in that order.

 

In general though Wolf Tail Talismans (sp?) and the Rune Priests stick are your best friends for cutting down Space-elf tricks: if you don't want to be tarpitted by a Seer Council then parking a Runer within 24" is usually enough to see them dragged down quickly enough to allow you to get back in the fight. And as was said earlier you don't bother casting powers and risking the Priest until the Farseer is no more.

 

I've found the Mech-heavy Eldar lists frustrating in the extreme to play as they simply park up and move away from you the entire game and its quite hard to bring the tanks down with either re-rolled cover saves due to Fortune being cast more than 24" away from you and the Wave Serpents S8 cap and losing a D6 for Melta. It's simply a case then of trying to stop the Dragons getting too close and the Avengers getting too far away. It doesn't inflict much damage but it can be so hard to kill that make it a tougher prospect than pretty much all the other Eldar builds out there.

[wiplash]

Drop Pod them in, let him come to you, hell have to tank shock you to get close enough to contest, and then ram a chainfist through his cockpit in true pit-fighter style.

If the drop pod is close enough will it contest the objective or do vehicles or immobile ones not affect this

 

 

Remember, he cant NOT roll for reserves, its something that must be done every turn, and if they come in, they come in.

yeah eldar players often try to "forget this" ;)

Thats not entirely true.

 

pffffff, cos thats never happened in our games has it lol :)

[Grey Mage]

If you have transports for your packs, he wont be able to tank shock them, or his attack lines will be awkward.

The point is you want him to try tank shocking,so you can rip it apart with the autohit attack.

 

Though...funniest thing in the world I ever saw...back when I was still having to use a Daemon Hunter Inquisitor Lord to fill out my points,He had a Psycannon and an Auspex. The Eldar player infiltrated the scorpion Lord thingy in and he deployed close enough to let my guy take the free shot. Since Scorps only have a invulnerable save,and the psycannon ignores invulnerable saves..during his deployment,3 S6 attacks,and at the start of my turn,another 3 s6 attacks. Needless to say he was very very upset when his Striking Scorpion squad was reduced to just the lord. Said lord then got ambushed by a squad of Grey Hunters and wiped out,though he took out all but the PW,MotW,and Both Meltagunners.

 

 

Must be in 2nd edition that Striking scorpions had an Invulnerable save as the had a 3+ armour save since 3rd. Unless you are reffering to cover saves as such you have been cheating without knowing.

Striking Scorpions did not have an invulnerable save, even in 2nd ed.

[MylesTheTroll]

Remember, he cant NOT roll for reserves, its something that must be done every turn, and if they come in, they come in.

yeah eldar players often try to "forget this" :D

 

Thats not entirely true. You do have to roll for reserves, but accordind to the Eldar FAQ:

The player may chose +1, +2 or no bonus to hid reserve rolls

So they have to roll, but the bonus is up to them. This can be used tacticaly.

 

That only applies if they are taking 1 or 2 Autarchs as HQs. The FAQ is in regards to the Autarch and Yriel's "Master Strategist" rules.

 

Otherwise, they follow the same basic rules for reserves as everyone else.

 

And if they are taking 2 Autarchs, that kind of tips the game in your favor since you can reliably use your Rune Priests offensively.

[Grey Mage]

I cant read that site, I dont agree with 3/4 of his articles. Im sure other people find him useful, but for the most part I find him to be a poor pundit, and his ideas lead to success only in a particular metagame.

I'm one of the people that's found his stuff useful, especially his thinking about Tau. Can I ask what particular metagame you're on about because if its mech-heavy he's usually spot-on in fairness to him?

 

Phoenix Lords are situational at best and not something I'd rate above Eldrad, Farseers, Yriel, Avatars and Autarchs in that order.

 

In general though Wolf Tail Talismans (sp?) and the Rune Priests stick are your best friends for cutting down Space-elf tricks: if you don't want to be tarpitted by a Seer Council then parking a Runer within 24" is usually enough to see them dragged down quickly enough to allow you to get back in the fight. And as was said earlier you don't bother casting powers and risking the Priest until the Farseer is no more.

 

I've found the Mech-heavy Eldar lists frustrating in the extreme to play as they simply park up and move away from you the entire game and its quite hard to bring the tanks down with either re-rolled cover saves due to Fortune being cast more than 24" away from you and the Wave Serpents S8 cap and losing a D6 for Melta. It's simply a case then of trying to stop the Dragons getting too close and the Avengers getting too far away. It doesn't inflict much damage but it can be so hard to kill that make it a tougher prospect than pretty much all the other Eldar builds out there.

 

My meta-game? In town there are, last time I counted, a little over three dozen players, and Im the only one whos played Space Wolves on a regular basis for the last six years- though they are a secondairy army for about 4 other guys. Last tournament was- 2 Nid players, 3 C:SM, 1 C:SW, 1 Eldar, 1 Necron, 2: Tau, 1 BA, 1 C:CSM and 2 Orks. Most players have meched up these days, but footslogging lists can still compete- if you know what your doing. Drop Pods were about a two month Fad, though some of us still use them- but Im probly the most regular at it.

 

Phoenix Lords are not even close to situational- they are in fact the kind of unit that creates situations by their presence. The main problem is that most Eldar players have it stuck in their heads that theres only two ways to play- Mechdar and Jetbikes. Mechdar as youve noticed is a primarily defensive maneuver, and "Flying Circuses" is an aboslute waste- barely mediocre in CC, non-scoring, horrible shooting *again, unless at vehicles or very large hordes* and very expensive.

 

Phoenix Lords are an agressive choice. Every single one of them wants to get stuck in close, save perhaps Baharroth. Asurmen in particular is undervalued in the article I was linked to- hes an excellent HQ hunter, and murder on anything without a large invulnerable save. This is however why you dont see them in Mechdar lists- when your doubling the price of the unit just for its transport, and reducing your firepower by staying in it for 90% of the game, you just dont have the points to work such things.

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

The point is you want him to try tank shocking,so you can rip it apart with the autohit attack.

 

 

 

wait what? autohit? I thought you still had to roll to hit, roll to pen, so on and so forth.

 

 

maybe its just my list of wolf missile doomdooomydoomness but i just dont see a problem with eldar at all. Ive faced monster eldar and killed a wraithlord out right from one long fang pack, killed another the next round, and the third the next turn. then i let up the avatar easy and living lightning and fragged a farseer and dire avengers to death.

 

and mechdar well i just stun/shake his vehicles and move on and usually with my list ive done quite well.

[Grey Mage]

No, death or glory auto-hits.

[Stormbrow II]

killed a wraithlord

No wonder you beat him.

 

The thing with Eldar mech lists is that they're so hard to put down and shaken/stunned isn't enough to stop the squads from getting out and pulling your stuff apart (apart from Dire Avenger squads in Serpents that hide all game). Granted, when stuff gets out it dies but if he's bagged enough of your big hitters then you might not have enough left to make the most of it. That's assuming you can stun/shake the important stuff long enough and not just struggle to get through re-rolled Cover saves, Energy Fields and/or Holo Fields.

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

Well when packing 20+ missiles I had expected to take out all 3 wraithlords to go away but failed a few to hits.

 

And in my 2k list I have no problem keeping mechdar at a stand still

[Stormshrug]

just a quick something, don't rely on meltabombs etc to down eldar vehicles. they are skimmersand as such you require a 6 to hit them in combat.

 

Actually, I think that's a 4th Ed rule. The 5th Ed rulebook doesn't say anything about special rules for hitting skimmers, so far as I could find. HOWEVER, any vehicle that has moved 6+ inches requres 4+ to hit, and anything that has moved 12+ inches requires 6+ to hit, and since all Eldar vehicles have the "Fast" keyword, it's functionally the way you describe it. They'll be very hard to hit in CC (Death or Glory excluded) unless your opponent forgets to move them (and if they do, take advantage of it!).

 

Makes bringing Monoliths down with Dreadnoughts easier, though...

 

-Stormshrug

[MylesTheTroll]

just a quick something, don't rely on meltabombs etc to down eldar vehicles. they are skimmersand as such you require a 6 to hit them in combat.

 

Actually, I think that's a 4th Ed rule. The 5th Ed rulebook doesn't say anything about special rules for hitting skimmers, so far as I could find. HOWEVER, any vehicle that has moved 6+ inches requres 4+ to hit, and anything that has moved 12+ inches requires 6+ to hit, and since all Eldar vehicles have the "Fast" keyword, it's functionally the way you describe it. They'll be very hard to hit in CC (Death or Glory excluded) unless your opponent forgets to move them (and if they do, take advantage of it!).

 

Makes bringing Monoliths down with Dreadnoughts easier, though...

 

-Stormshrug

 

Actually, Combat speed (up to 6") 4+ to hit. Crusing speed and faster (above 6") 6s are required to hit. pg 63 BRB

[Hear da Lamentation]

Thanks guys,some very useful stuff in there. The biggie for me was that death or glory autohits. There's my chance at least to blow the tank before it gets into 3" of the objective. All my objective holding/taking units have at least a powerfist in them, so I'll be able to try that out next time. Thanks Grey Mage for that nugget.

 

One question ...

 

Lets say I have a unit of Grey Hunters surrounding an objective, keeping anyone coming into base to base out of 3" of the objective. Eldar tank shock to move me out of the way. So I get to "death of glory" - and lets say it works and i immobilise / wreck/destroy the begger. Assuming it is full of troops, where does it stop? At the edge of my troops where I hit it? Or at the end of it's move - right next to the objective?

[Grey Mage]

It stops immediately wherever you made the attack. IE on the edge

 

Also, note that you can make a ranged attack- it also autohits. So, if you have a meltagun you might use that for the AP 1, even if it wont get 2d6 vs the waveserpent *as its not a close combat attack*.

[Hear da Lamentation]

Thanks Grey Mage. I guess the powerfist is more reliable as it will be str 8 against AT10 (from the rear) whereas the melta would only be str 8 against AT12. However, if the tank isn't a waveserpent the melta will be great. I didnt realise you could missile with death or glory. Nice !

[Grey Mage]

Thanks Grey Mage. I guess the powerfist is more reliable as it will be str 8 against AT10 (from the rear) whereas the melta would only be str 8 against AT12. However, if the tank isn't a waveserpent the melta will be great. I didnt realise you could missile with death or glory. Nice !

Either way its front armor- the Meltagun is more likely to destroy via AP 1.

 

Check "Death or Glory!" on page 69, left hand side at the top. Of the core rulebook that is.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

If you have transports for your packs, he wont be able to tank shock them, or his attack lines will be awkward.

The point is you want him to try tank shocking,so you can rip it apart with the autohit attack.

 

Wild Wolf! *shakes head* ;)

 

First you need to pass the Ld test. Ld 8 fails 10/36 = 27.78% Ld 9 fails 6/36 = 16.67%.

Then he needs to actually run over your dude with the appropriate weapon.

Then you need to glance or penetrate AV 12 with s8 ~ if he is a Wave Serpent, the melta loses its MELTAiness.

Then you need to Stun - Immobilise - Destroy it.

 

The melta does this 5/6 times with penetration or 3/6 with a glance. The power fist does this 4/6 times with a pen or 2/6 with a glance.

 

:lol: ALERT :)

Ld 9, Melta,

30/36 to pass, 1/6 glance, 3/6 to stop it. 90/1296 = 6.9%

30/36 to pass, 2/6 pen, 5/6 to stop it. 300/1296 = 23.1%

 

or 30% to stop the thing.

 

Otherwise brother-Wolf will be a red smudge *sad face* :lol: assuming they hadn't fled the scene....

[Grey Mage]

Yeah, but then we look at a chainfist- 8+2d6 to penetrate means that only 1 in 6 times will it fail to do so, and then it will kill it or otherwise stop it 2/3 times giving us a about 55% chance of success.

 

The beauty of the thing is if it tank schocks like that it cant ram the DP- so it has to stay an inch away. Assuming, for sake of argument, that the DP is centered on the objective that puts it at 2.5-3.5" away, depending on the size of the marker.

 

And remember, with a WG its LD 9, wich passes 5/6 times itself.

[wiplash]

yeah if you have a wolf guard with chainfist - as is being duscussed in this whole thread!

then you are passing the Leadership 30/36 times - 83.33%

auto hit - 100%

2D6 AP - effectively 2+ to glance - 83.33%, or,

2D6 AP - 2.5+ to penetrate - 75%

 

and then you are going to get a result anything 2+ is worth it for atleast a turn

[stinkenheim]

Thanks Grey Mage. I guess the powerfist is more reliable as it will be str 8 against AT10 (from the rear) whereas the melta would only be str 8 against AT12. However, if the tank isn't a waveserpent the melta will be great. I didnt realise you could missile with death or glory. Nice !

 

you resolve all hits against the front, as far as i am aware that includes the clos combat attacks as you aren't really in a position to look for a weak point, your more concerned with stopping the thing asap.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

yeah if you have a wolf guard with chainfist - as is being duscussed in this whole thread!

I'll work with that anyway

 

Ld 9, Chainfist. Chainfist glance gives 2/6 and pen gives 4/6

 

30/36 Ld, 3/36 to score AV 12, 2/6 to stop tank = 180/7776 or 2.3%

30/36 Ld, 30/36 to beat AV 12. 4/6 to stop tank = 3600/7776 or 46.3%

 

combines for 48.6%.

 

which isn't terrible, but I would prefer to keep my men in a tank in preference to putting my chances in DoG w/CF, which is what I was saying to Req.