Combat Squads

[Warprat]

So, I am still learning the basics. How to use Combat Squads...

 

 

 

My all foot army 1500 pts. (Used to learn game fundamentals. Pretty much just basic units... not very optimized.)

 

1 Chapter Master

1 Ten man Tac Termie squad w/2 cyclones

1 Dread with assault cannon, hvy flamer

4 x Tac squads each w/ plasma cannon, flamer, combi-flamer, melta bomb.

 

 

 

 

 

Against a close combat army in a non-kill point mission, Combat Squads seem the way to go. But how to use them?

 

Last couple games, against a Space Wolves player, I just brutalized him. But, that was more due to him using his army for the first couple times, than me doing anything spectacular. Once he figures out how to effectively hit my lines, I'm in for a real fight.

 

One time, he drop podded a Grey Hunter squad in piecemeal and I hit it with 3 double flamer Combat Tac squads, and the Terminators open fired on the remnants. But really I allocated too many resources and overkllled a little, just trying to get a good feel for the literal fire power I could put out. Multiple flamer templates offer dimishing returns. But they are good.

 

Space Wolves are very good in the hand to hand department. He runs a Sky Claw squad with Priest, giving him prefered ememy. He also runs Logan Grimnar with a Terminator squad. Grimnar, if you don't know it, makes the Termies troops and is a monster in CC with living legion, prefered enemy and a +1 combat bubble. So he is a force multiplier as well as a butt kicker. He lives up to the fluff! He can pretty much take down my whole 10 man Terminator squad in a couple turns just with Grimnar alone.

 

Then there is the Rune Priest with Jaws of the World Wolf. If used in a flank attack, this guy can trace down a line of troops. Also works nicely against dreadnoughts.

 

 

 

 

So I am having some difficulty trying to figure out how I need to space the Combat squads, to use them as speed bumps. Too close and he can assault two or more squads at once. Too far, and they will be unable to fire (like Guard) on the victors.

 

How do you run your Combat squads? Shove one forward, so the enemy must hit it, then fire on the victor? This seems obvious, but how much space to give between. Flame template + 6" move (9-10 inches?

 

Also, how should the heavy weapons be deployed? So far, I have been mainly keeping them stationary (in cover) as much as possible to use the plasma cannons. But this leaves the double flamer Combat squads somewhat exposed, without the support of the heavies 4 bolters. If these guys don't need to claim an objective, would it be better to move them up to support, taking opportunity shots with the plasma cannon?

 

Run the flamer squads as one group and the plasmas in another. Or run 2 and 2?

 

 

 

How do you deal with units that can move through your forward squads in rhinos, or with jump packs? Castle up, or spread out? So far I have been trying to deploy 2nd to maximize my setup using refused flank against a section of his army. That seems to work fairly well.

 

I am trying to employ Combat Tactics as well, but not succeeding very well, due to my poor use of Combat squads.

 

 

I could use some advice here...

 

 

 

Many Thanks!

 

Warprat ;)

[henrythesecond]

So, I am still learning the basics. How to use Combat Squads...

 

My all foot army 1500 pts. (Used to learn game fundamentals. Pretty much just basic units... not very optimized.)

 

1 Chapter Master

1 Ten man Tac Termie squad w/2 cyclones

1 Dread with assault cannon, hvy flamer

4 x Tac squads each w/ plasma cannon, flamer, combi-flamer, melta bomb.

 

In 5th Edition, due to the increased survivability of vehicles and the fact that 2/3 of the missions require offensive

play in the form of objective grabbing, it's generally a good idea to get at least a couple of your Tac Squads some

kind of delivery system, either Rhinos or Drop Pods.

 

Against a close combat army in a non-kill point mission, Combat Squads seem the way to go. But how to use them?

 

Last couple games, against a Space Wolves player, I just brutalized him. But, that was more due to him using his army for the first couple times, than me doing anything spectacular. Once he figures out how to effectively hit my lines, I'm in for a real fight.

 

One time, he drop podded a Grey Hunter squad in piecemeal and I hit it with 3 double flamer Combat Tac squads, and the Terminators open fired on the remnants. But really I allocated too many resources and overkllled a little, just trying to get a good feel for the literal fire power I could put out. Multiple flamer templates offer dimishing returns. But they are good.

 

Space Wolves are very good in the hand to hand department. He runs a Sky Claw squad with Priest, giving him prefered ememy. He also runs Logan Grimnar with a Terminator squad. Grimnar, if you don't know it, makes the Termies troops and is a monster in CC with living legion, prefered enemy and a +1 combat bubble. So he is a force multiplier as well as a butt kicker. He lives up to the fluff! He can pretty much take down my whole 10 man Terminator squad in a couple turns just with Grimnar alone.

 

Then there is the Rune Priest with Jaws of the World Wolf. If used in a flank attack, this guy can trace down a line of troops. Also works nicely against dreadnoughts.

 

While giving as much info as you can is encouraged when you ask a question on these forums, I suspect the lack of replies

you've received (despite nearly 40 views) may be down to the fact that you've wandered a little off topic. I've found people

tend to reply to queries when the question and facts are put as succinctly as possible.

 

So I am having some difficulty trying to figure out how I need to space the Combat squads, to use them as speed bumps. Too close and he can assault two or more squads at once. Too far, and they will be unable to fire (like Guard) on the victors.

 

How do you run your Combat squads? Shove one forward, so the enemy must hit it, then fire on the victor? This seems obvious, but how much space to give between. Flame template + 6" move (9-10 inches?

 

Also, how should the heavy weapons be deployed? So far, I have been mainly keeping them stationary (in cover) as much as possible to use the plasma cannons. But this leaves the double flamer Combat squads somewhat exposed, without the support of the heavies 4 bolters. If these guys don't need to claim an objective, would it be better to move them up to support, taking opportunity shots with the plasma cannon?

 

Run the flamer squads as one group and the plasmas in another. Or run 2 and 2?

 

In my opinion, the 'non-heavy' combat squads should be close support for each other, the 'heavy' combat squads should

definitely be in postions to offer anti-vehicle and long range support. Cover is preferable, but not essential for Space Marine

long range support, unless your opponent is carrying a lot of long range AP1/2 weaponry.

 

You may also find the topic on how to arm your Tac Squad Sgts (who should be with the 'non-heavy' squads) quite informative.

 

How do you deal with units that can move through your forward squads in rhinos, or with jump packs? Castle up, or spread out? So far I have been trying to deploy 2nd to maximize my setup using refused flank against a section of his army. That seems to work fairly well.

 

I am trying to employ Combat Tactics as well, but not succeeding very well, due to my poor use of Combat squads.

 

I could use some advice here...

 

Many Thanks!

 

Warprat :)

 

Probably the best advice I can give you is to keep playing, keep trying as many different things as you can until you

hit upon the one that A.) You enjoy using, B.) Suits your army build, C.) Offers a chance to compete in each game you play.

 

Just my worthless 2p...

 

Regards.

[LardO'Blood]

What I enjoy doing is toying with my opponent, use urban landscape or a rhino (even immobilized) to block LoS and creep around the map and force your opponent to choose between either the combat squad or a juicy unit like 5 tac terminators or sternguard. This can balance out a list that uses lots of expensive units, they never are in the same basket.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

When discussing Tactical combat squads, I refer to the breakdown as follows:

 

Heavy Weapon Combat Squad: "Support Squad"

Other Five Guys: "Point Squad"

 

That being said, you need to keep your Point Squads -- who are, I assume, being used to seize objectives or as hunter/killer units to go after enemy positions -- relatively close together. Five Marines are not difficult to kill for most armies, but ten or fifteen close enough to be capable of providing mutual support to each other A.) makes a harder target, since there are more bodies B.) provides a stronger close-attack element since there are more guns/chainswords hitting one target and C.) the other Point Squads can act as counter-attack units if one of their number is locked up in combat. And since they're all scoring units, any one of them that survives can hold an objective.

 

Plus, if you're facing any horde armies or even have to bite your nails over your targeting allocations, consider that combat squads allow you to pour bolter fire into double the number of targets if necessary. This is especially useful for thinning out rapid assault units that rely on numbers to overwhelm Marine squads, like 'gaunts, boyz, and some Eldar Aspect squads. In some cases, killing off a whole unit isn't necessary to dilute their assault capability to the point where they are reasonably ineffective. A corollary to this is that you can put a Support Squad's firepower into an enemy assault element about to charge, then pre-emptively charge said assault element with the Point Squad. "It is usually better to charge than be charged" is one of my adages, and in this case, you're preventing the Support Squad from being charged and taking its heavy weapon out of play while the Point Squad's extra attacks from charging and by virtue of being Marines should do enough damage to dilute the assault unit's impact if/when it defeats the Point Squad and moves on to another part of your battle-line.

 

Whoo. That was a little more than I expected to write. Hope it helps.

[Warprat]

When discussing Tactical combat squads, I refer to the breakdown as follows:

 

Heavy Weapon Combat Squad: "Support Squad"

Other Five Guys: "Point Squad"

 

That being said, you need to keep your Point Squads -- who are, I assume, being used to seize objectives or as hunter/killer units to go after enemy positions -- relatively close together. Five Marines are not difficult to kill for most armies, but ten or fifteen close enough to be capable of providing mutual support to each other A.) makes a harder target, since there are more bodies B.) provides a stronger close-attack element since there are more guns/chainswords hitting one target and C.) the other Point Squads can act as counter-attack units if one of their number is locked up in combat. And since they're all scoring units, any one of them that survives can hold an objective.

 

Plus, if you're facing any horde armies or even have to bite your nails over your targeting allocations, consider that combat squads allow you to pour bolter fire into double the number of targets if necessary. This is especially useful for thinning out rapid assault units that rely on numbers to overwhelm Marine squads, like 'gaunts, boyz, and some Eldar Aspect squads. In some cases, killing off a whole unit isn't necessary to dilute their assault capability to the point where they are reasonably ineffective. A corollary to this is that you can put a Support Squad's firepower into an enemy assault element about to charge, then pre-emptively charge said assault element with the Point Squad. "It is usually better to charge than be charged" is one of my adages, and in this case, you're preventing the Support Squad from being charged and taking its heavy weapon out of play while the Point Squad's extra attacks from charging and by virtue of being Marines should do enough damage to dilute the assault unit's impact if/when it defeats the Point Squad and moves on to another part of your battle-line.

 

Whoo. That was a little more than I expected to write. Hope it helps.

 

 

This is what I am after, sorry for being too long winded about it...

 

 

 

What distance is close enought to support, but far enough not to get double charged? Take the case of 2 Combat Squaded Tactical Squads...

 

As I understand it, the main idea is to use bolter fire and specials to hit opponents that run into the Point Squad. So, the 2 Point Squads would lead, and cover each other's flank, while applying fire power to approaching enemy. If one squad gets hit, it attempts to fall back with Combat Tactics and the attacking enemy unit is fired upon by whatever survives of the Point Squad, and the other undamaged flanking Point Squad.

 

 

The Support Squads, mean while, advance behind the Point Squads, and apply thier Heavies and bolters. Or, one or both stay behind to guard objectives and use mainly only the heavy to support.

 

It seems to me that there are two possibilities here. One, the Support Squad follows within 2" behind the Point Squad, allowing the Point Squad to use Combat Tactics and fall back between the Support Squad members in the event of being assaulted. Hopefully allowing escape.

 

Or two, the Support Squad remains at a longer distance, but within bolter range, the better to avoid be assaulted, or rapid fired upon. If this, then what range? Certainly within 24" to allow heavy weapon and single bolter shots, but what about using rapid fire at under 12"? Viable?

 

 

 

Then there are HQ's to consider. Leaders stacked with Point Squads seem pretty vulnerable. OK, or not? Seems better than the more static Support Squads... but a bit flimsy. Or, keep them in another, more specialized full squad unit of counter assaulters like Termies or Assaults. Or a shooty squad like Sternguard.

 

 

A dreadnought would actually be a pretty cool support unit as well. Able to add some longer range heavy firepower, and close range counter assault with heavy flamer. It could also counter assualt to tarpit the enemy, allowing the Combat Squads to escape if another enemy unit barges in.

 

 

OK, thanks for bearing with me!

 

Warprat ;)

[Leonaides]

All you need to do is be out of charge distacne from the enemy unit - so if they start their move 3" in front of your 'point' squad (for example), and your support squad is at least 3" behind your 'point' squad, you cant be charged by them (note - beware cavalry with a 12" charge). You have no need to be this close, but thats probbaly the best way I can think to explain it. IG speedbumps used to run in long lines, with just under 1" between each model (so you coldnt just charge through them to the units behind) and about 3" between each line wehre I play. However, thats probably a bad way to use marines. Especially 5 man comabt squads as it only takes a casualty or 2 before the enemy can just charge straight through you. I'd recommend at least 3" distance between each unit in any case, in an attempt to minimise any potential for multiple unit charges - as a BA I start to cackle wildly when my opponent is nice enough to give me 2 or 3 units I can charge at the same time with something nasty like a big DC.

 

Your HQ should probably be with a point squad, unless you have a dedicated counter assault squad (doesnt appear so). Termies dont really need the extra killing power, but a captain/master in with a tac squad massively increases their killing potential in CC.

 

It doesnt look like he's got much in the way of vehicles, apart from that drop-pod, so just pummel his termies with heavy plasma shots as much as possible (to cut down on their numbers for the inevitable assault), use your dread and a combat squad of termies to play backstop for when his grey hunters appear (charging either one into his GH's will probably ruin his day, and dont forget to shoot on the way in), and move your combat squads out to form a loose line to intercept anthing heading towards your firebase.

 

As soon as his GH's are down and you've engaged them (you dont say if they have a PF or not - if they do its probably best to send the terminators into them rather than the dread), your other backstop unit can move up to reinforce your front line units. Watch out for thouse skyclaws - if you get the chance to drop a couple of plasma hits on them do it as they are more mobile than you so will be charging you at some point (you cant stop the hit, so do what you can to minimise it). Use 2 layers of point units - Id suggest 3 tactical combat squads slightly in front, with the second termie squad, and the 4th point squad (with master) slightly behind, so that whichever front line squad gets charged, you can get help to them in the next turn. (total distance between front 3 screening units and fire supprt units - somewhere between 7-10 inches so you can intercept his JP troops before they are in range to charge your fire support)

 

You can afford to lose a couple of those front units, so expect them to die and be happy if any survive. Their job is to get his assault units to waste their charge on a not-very-important unit, and leave his killer units sitting ducks in front of your heavy hitters. The termies - no easy way to say this, but they're also a sacrificial unit. Their job is to do slow up his big choppy death unit (which is why you need to have given it a bit of a pasting beforehand to minimise the number of attacks heading your way).

 

You play all-footslogging, and he seems to be at least partially mechanised - so your play-style is basically forced on you. Shoot him as much as possible from your fire support units, making him come at you. Dont go to meet him till you absolutely have to (the more turns you can shoot him the better), and when you get there, expect units to die. Remember the victory conditions though - you dont need to kill his mega unit if delaying it will do - even if it takes the lives of all your termies to allow your tac squads to leg it for an objective counter.

[Warprat]

All you need to do is be out of charge distacne from the enemy unit - so if they start their move 3" in front of your 'point' squad (for example), and your support squad is at least 3" behind your 'point' squad, you cant be charged by them (note - beware cavalry with a 12" charge). You have no need to be this close, but thats probbaly the best way I can think to explain it. IG speedbumps used to run in long lines, with just under 1" between each model (so you coldnt just charge through them to the units behind) and about 3" between each line wehre I play. However, thats probably a bad way to use marines. Especially 5 man comabt squads as it only takes a casualty or 2 before the enemy can just charge straight through you. I'd recommend at least 3" distance between each unit in any case, in an attempt to minimise any potential for multiple unit charges - as a BA I start to cackle wildly when my opponent is nice enough to give me 2 or 3 units I can charge at the same time with something nasty like a big DC.

 

Your HQ should probably be with a point squad, unless you have a dedicated counter assault squad (doesnt appear so). Termies dont really need the extra killing power, but a captain/master in with a tac squad massively increases their killing potential in CC.

 

It doesnt look like he's got much in the way of vehicles, apart from that drop-pod, so just pummel his termies with heavy plasma shots as much as possible (to cut down on their numbers for the inevitable assault), use your dread and a combat squad of termies to play backstop for when his grey hunters appear (charging either one into his GH's will probably ruin his day, and dont forget to shoot on the way in), and move your combat squads out to form a loose line to intercept anthing heading towards your firebase.

 

As soon as his GH's are down and you've engaged them (you dont say if they have a PF or not - if they do its probably best to send the terminators into them rather than the dread), your other backstop unit can move up to reinforce your front line units. Watch out for thouse skyclaws - if you get the chance to drop a couple of plasma hits on them do it as they are more mobile than you so will be charging you at some point (you cant stop the hit, so do what you can to minimise it). Use 2 layers of point units - Id suggest 3 tactical combat squads slightly in front, with the second termie squad, and the 4th point squad (with master) slightly behind, so that whichever front line squad gets charged, you can get help to them in the next turn. (total distance between front 3 screening units and fire supprt units - somewhere between 7-10 inches so you can intercept his JP troops before they are in range to charge your fire support)

 

You can afford to lose a couple of those front units, so expect them to die and be happy if any survive. Their job is to get his assault units to waste their charge on a not-very-important unit, and leave his killer units sitting ducks in front of your heavy hitters. The termies - no easy way to say this, but they're also a sacrificial unit. Their job is to do slow up his big choppy death unit (which is why you need to have given it a bit of a pasting beforehand to minimise the number of attacks heading your way).

 

You play all-footslogging, and he seems to be at least partially mechanised - so your play-style is basically forced on you. Shoot him as much as possible from your fire support units, making him come at you. Dont go to meet him till you absolutely have to (the more turns you can shoot him the better), and when you get there, expect units to die. Remember the victory conditions though - you dont need to kill his mega unit if delaying it will do - even if it takes the lives of all your termies to allow your tac squads to leg it for an objective counter.

 

 

Thanks!

 

This is pretty much a good summation of what has been happening, except my Combat Squads have not been optimized in any formation. I always hit any grouped up enemy units with plasma cannon and flamer, cyclones frags too if they are very packed together.

 

My termies usually spend the first turn hitting a razorback/rhino at longer range, killing it. While the plasma cannons tacs work on the survivors. Then they whittle what they can with fire power, while heading for the worst of the close combat threats. They work great... they don't always survive, but they take and give a hell of a beating.

 

I will probably change my HQ to a Librarian with the invunerable re-roll and AP3 flamer powers. Forget the names... at work now. Like I originally posted, Space Wolves have some great leaders with good force mulipler abilities. The Wolf Guard can take termie armer with power weapons and storm shields. With Logan Grimnar's prefered enemy, and +1, my tactical termies are toast after a couple rounds. The re-roll power will even things up a bit when my power fists finally get to swing back. But to keep him alive, I will have to place him in a supporting Point Combat Squad.

 

Another option for HQ would be Lysander. I have read he is a combat monster. With a full squad of tactical termies, he is something to think about. Any opinions on this guy?

 

 

The amount of shooting power I can put out is pretty decent, and when I can catch him piecemeal, as I have been doing, fantastick. But he is learning to fear my firepower and avoiding grouping up now, so I am working to up my game. He has all the bells and wistles on his units with melta-guns and powerfists and transports, while I am taking a completly different minamalist hoard appoach. So, it is an interesting matchup.

 

 

Looking forward to using transports and more optimized units when I feel I have mastered the basics.

 

Warprat ;)