Consensus on WG Battle Leader and Saga of Hunter

[BDS]

Here is the FAQ:

 

Q. Can an Independent Character that has

joined a Wolf Scouts pack outflank? What about

if he has the Saga of the Hunter?

A. No he cannot. He can only join an outflanking

unit if he has the ability to outflank because of

the Saga of the Hunter.

 

So, an IC without the outflank ability can not join a wolf scout unit. An IC with the outflank ability, given by Saga of the Hunter, can join a unit of wolf scouts.

 

Clear so far.

 

He does not loose stealth, it is not marked with an asterisk on page 76 of BBB. However, the wolf scouts do not have stealth nor would they gain it by a Wolf Gaurd Battle Leader(WGBL) that joined them.

 

The WGBL can not infiltrate, and if joining a scout unit the scout unit would loose infiltrate per pg 76 BBB, as infiltrate IS marked by an asterisk.

 

Move through cover is moot, as IC's roll an extra dice for difficult terrain...ah, except for the fact that move through terrain is marked by an asterisk. Since the WGBL does not have move through cover the unit he joins that does, scouts, loose this special rule.

 

So, thus far a WGBL:

Can join a scout unit

WGBL and scout unit can outflank.

WGBL and scout unit can NOT infiltrate

WGBL and scout unit can be held in reserve.

WGBL and scout do not have move through cover as a combined unit. Scouts regain this rule should the WGBL leave the unit and the WGBL will roll three dice per IC rules upon leaving combined unit.

 

This leaves only: Operate behing enemy lines (OBEL)

 

Codex:If a wolf scout unit makes use of its ability to outflank, roll a dice when it enters play to see where it may be deployed.....goes on to list locations and is not needed for this discussion.

 

So, can a wolf scout unit choose to outflank in any other way than described by OBEL... answer is no, must roll as described by OBEL.

How is this roll defined...answer it is defined by the description of wolf scout unit OBEL.

Is any other term other than "outflank" used...answer no.

Does both the WGBL and wolf scout unit have the outflank rule...answer yes.

Are there more than type of "outflank" described in codex or BBB..answer no, scout units roll on seperate unique table when using outflank. Outflank is constant, roll table is not.

Does the unit remain a scout unit when joined by and IC...answer yes...all units retain their original FO when joined by IC unless stated specifically in their specific rules. (ex. does a Bezerker unit stop being a bezerker unit when joined by Typhus?...answer no)

 

So, upon review of this information I am concluding that that a WGBL with Saga of the Hunter should be able to outflank with a scout unit and must adhere to the OBEL rolling table. The remaining special rules are summarized above.

 

Is this how others are playing this? More specifically how is this being ruled on in British GT's, Independent tournaments, etc.?

 

I did do a search, but a search does not filter out comment by emotion or fluff, etc. and was looking for concrete rule answwers or rulings of tournament organizers.

 

Thank you for the discussion,

BDS

[Skirax]

Well, and this is no solid answer, but Stuart Mackaness, who works for Games Workshop, I do believe, is the owner of Tempus Fugitives, and in one of his packs, there is a Wulfen option that is led by a named character who has Saga of the Hunter, but the squad does not, so the unit can outflank...

 

Now this may seem like a moot point, but it shows that a unit who the WGBL joins gains the ability, whereas if he were to join a unit with OBEL (scouts) then they would not be able to use OBEl because it is a unit specific rule, and you would need to be a part of that unit to make use of the rule.

[MylesTheTroll]

pg 48 BRB Under "Special Rules"

 

The answer as to why they cannot is there. Summary: Unit's special rules are not conferred upon the IC and vice-versa, unless specifically implicated in the rule itself.

[Grimtooth]

Geesh this again?

 

If a Wolf Scout UNIT makes use of its ability to outflank.........

 

OBEL is not granted to Wolf Scout MODELS, it is granted to a Wolf Scout UNIT. When the IC joins the unit he is part of that unit for everything except in close combat where he fights as a unit of his own.

 

So, an IC with Saga of the Hunter can join a Wolf Scout unit and is allowed to OBEL because he is part of the Wolf Scout UNIT and has outflank which is all that OBEL requires.

[MylesTheTroll]

Geesh this again?

 

If a Wolf Scout UNIT makes use of its ability to outflank.........

 

OBEL is not granted to Wolf Scout MODELS, it is granted to a Wolf Scout UNIT. When the IC joins the unit he is part of that unit for everything except in close combat where he fights as a unit of his own.

 

So, an IC with Saga of the Hunter can join a Wolf Scout unit and is allowed to OBEL because he is part of the Wolf Scout UNIT which is all that OBEL requires.

 

Once again,

 

pg 48 BRB Under "Special Rules"

 

The answer as to why they cannot is there. Summary: Unit's special rules are not conferred upon the IC and vice-versa, unless specifically implicated in the rule itself.

 

I wish it worked that way, but this rule is definitive as to why it doesn't regardless of logic.

[Grimtooth]

Geesh this again?

 

If a Wolf Scout UNIT makes use of its ability to outflank.........

 

OBEL is not granted to Wolf Scout MODELS, it is granted to a Wolf Scout UNIT. When the IC joins the unit he is part of that unit for everything except in close combat where he fights as a unit of his own.

 

So, an IC with Saga of the Hunter can join a Wolf Scout unit and is allowed to OBEL because he is part of the Wolf Scout UNIT which is all that OBEL requires.

 

Once again,

 

pg 48 BRB Under "Special Rules"

 

The answer as to why they cannot is there. Summary: Unit's special rules are not conferred upon the IC and vice-versa, unless specifically implicated in the rule itself.

 

I wish it worked that way, but this rule is definitive as to why it doesn't regardless of logic.

 

It is implicated in the rule. I quoted the first line of OBEL to you,

 

If a Wolf Scout UNIT makes use of its ability to outflank.........

 

When an IC joins the Wolf Scout unit, he is part of that unit for all purposes except for close combat where he fights as his own separate unit.

[Hfran Morkai]

But BEL is an amendment to a special rule as opposed to an entirely new special rule, therefore myself and my opponents often agree that it is possible for the unit to use BEL, though that's not hard and fast.

[MylesTheTroll]

I understand that, but that isn't specifically stating that an IC gets it too. If it was, then there wouldn't be so many debates on it across the different WH40K forums.

 

The rules on pg 48 even goes as far as to mention the Stubborn USR which in it's entry on pg76 says "Independent characters that stubborn confer the ability onto any unit that they join." Now that specifically states it.

[Grimtooth]

I understand that, but that isn't specifically stating that an IC gets it too. If it was, then there wouldn't be so many debates on it across the different WH40K forums.

 

The rules on pg 48 even goes as far as to mention the Stubborn USR which in it's entry on pg76 says "Independent characters that stubborn confer the ability onto any unit that they join." Now that specifically states it.

 

OBEL specifically sets the standards for who can use it.

 

1. That the unit be able to outflank.

 

2. That the unit be Wolf Scouts.

 

An IC with Saga of the Hunter that has joined a unit of Wolf Scouts specifically has those two requirements.

 

Again I point to the actual rule and will actually break it down,

 

If a Wolf Scout unit......

 

An IC with Saga of the Hunter is joined to Wolf Scouts he is part of that unit for all purposes except close combat where he fights as a unit of his own.

.....makes use of its ability to outflank,.........

 

An IC with Saga of the Hunter has outflank as does the Wolf Scouts, so the entire unit can outflank.

 

If we want to go by your examples, they consist of the Stubborn USR and the Infiltrate USR. I could say that by your standard of examples, that rule only applies to USR which OBEL is not and therefore not under the rule on page 48.

[Adarul Greystalker]

I agree with the original poster's interpretation of the rules. It's not a question as to whether Behind Enemy Lines is conferred to the independant character as he joins the unit, as clearly it would not be. Rather, Behind Enemy Lines appears to be an ability of the scout unit that is "triggered" when the scout unit outflanks. Therefore, if the scouts outflank, the special rule comes into effect and they use the modified table.

 

Now I know that this doesn't decide the matter, as it is quite the ambiguous question and there will still be disagreement until GW FAQs it, but this is the interpretation that my gaming group uses. It's supported by a clear rules-as-written argument as demonstrated by the original poster of this thread, and I think that it clearly embodies the rules-as-intended as well.

[BDS]

pg 48 BRB Under "Special Rules"

 

The answer as to why they cannot is there. Summary: Unit's special rules are not conferred upon the IC and vice-versa, unless specifically implicated in the rule itself.

 

 

I thank you for quoting a rule book page and rule. Your example on page 48 refers to "Universal Special Rules"(USR's) as outlined in the passage you quoted. The examples in the quoted passage also use USR's. OBEL is not a universal special rule. It is a d6 table used by the unit "Wolf Scouts" when they use the universal special rule "outflank".

 

 

BDS

 

ps; edited. Somehow the wrong post was quoted with the quote function.

[Grey Mage]

But BEL is an amendment to a special rule as opposed to an entirely new special rule, therefore myself and my opponents often agree that it is possible for the unit to use BEL, though that's not hard and fast.

This was the conclusion of my gaming group aswell.

[BDS]

But BEL is an amendment to a special rule as opposed to an entirely new special rule, therefore myself and my opponents often agree that it is possible for the unit to use BEL, though that's not hard and fast.

This was the conclusion of my gaming group aswell.

 

 

So, has anyone chose to use this in a more formal setting? Say a league, tournament, etc? Was there an issue with the organizer or any of your opponents? How about in pick up games with opponents you are not familiar with?

 

I am asking because it is wonderful fluff. The tactical applications are present, but do not appear overpowering to me for what you pay for and sacrifice, etc. I am looking at running what I would call junior heroes. Guys who are stand outs but are not all Wolf Lords or special characters (SC's).

 

The glamor of 5th edition hero-hammer is a getting a little stale with me and I want to try to work on some lists with some flavor, some tactical prowess, and some variety.

 

Thus the thought of a Wolf Guard Battle Leader (WGBL) with a couple fen wolves joining a wolf scout unit for a quest behind enemy lines smells like good story telling to me. Same with a wolf priest.

 

Thank you for the feedback thus far,

 

BDS

[Stormshrug]

This rules clusterfrag is the biggest, deadest horse on our forum, probably. I can't offer any rules insight that hasn't been offered before.

 

However, I can say a bit about how it plays, since I've been using it for a while.

 

Pros:

-Strategic flexibility (You can shore up defensive lines, catch their open flank, or whatever you need to do)

-Psychological advantage (Your opponent doesn't know where he'll come in)

-Likely to arrive in combat without being shot first (since it starts off the board, and then can assault the first turn)

-Excellent against infantry (I5 Frost Blade)

-Excellent against vehicles (meltabombs)

 

Cons:

-Fragile (No way to get Eternal Warrior, no way to get a Toughness boost) - Keep him away from Power Fists

-Invul. Save costs you attack power (I personally prefer to embrace the 'glass cannon' and take a Plasma Pistol, but if you want a Storm Shield, it'll cost you an attack and the ability to fire a weapon, which is very nice for cracking transports to assault the contents)

-WGBL isn't quite up to taking down enemy Special Characters or really nasty HQs on his own (If you send him against anything with a name or more than 200 points of wargear with no backup, he's gonna die, very possibly without inflicting wounds if they have a good Invul save)

 

 

Personally, I love Saga of the Hunter on a WGBL - it gives you a cheap HQ you can deliver directly to the enemy's weak point. But, I will say, I don't run him against certain armies, particularly those with few models and lots of Invulnerable saves (BA, certain Tyranid and SW lists). To be effective, he requires that your enemy HAVE soft spots you can sink his fangs into, and there are some (fairly competitive) armies out that are all quills and no soft underbelly. In the games I've had him, he's had some great moments (taking down an outflanking enemy Demolisher headed straight for my troops, killing a Daemon Prince and then putting two wounds on Khârn the Betrayer), but he's not going to outdo a more expensive option in raw kill tally or ridiciulousness of feats.

 

-Stormshrug

[Grimtooth]

This rules clusterfrag is the biggest, deadest horse on our forum, probably. I can't offer any rules insight that hasn't been offered before.

 

However, I can say a bit about how it plays, since I've been using it for a while.

 

Pros:

-Strategic flexibility (You can shore up defensive lines, catch their open flank, or whatever you need to do)

-Psychological advantage (Your opponent doesn't know where he'll come in)

-Likely to arrive in combat without being shot first (since it starts off the board, and then can assault the first turn)

-Excellent against infantry (I5 Frost Blade)

-Excellent against vehicles (meltabombs)

 

Cons:

-Fragile (No way to get Eternal Warrior, no way to get a Toughness boost) - Keep him away from Power Fists

-Invul. Save costs you attack power (I personally prefer to embrace the 'glass cannon' and take a Plasma Pistol, but if you want a Storm Shield, it'll cost you an attack and the ability to fire a weapon, which is very nice for cracking transports to assault the contents)

-WGBL isn't quite up to taking down enemy Special Characters or really nasty HQs on his own (If you send him against anything with a name or more than 200 points of wargear with no backup, he's gonna die, very possibly without inflicting wounds if they have a good Invul save)

 

 

Personally, I love Saga of the Hunter on a WGBL - it gives you a cheap HQ you can deliver directly to the enemy's weak point. But, I will say, I don't run him against certain armies, particularly those with few models and lots of Invulnerable saves (BA, certain Tyranid and SW lists). To be effective, he requires that your enemy HAVE soft spots you can sink his fangs into, and there are some (fairly competitive) armies out that are all quills and no soft underbelly. In the games I've had him, he's had some great moments (taking down an outflanking enemy Demolisher headed straight for my troops, killing a Daemon Prince and then putting two wounds on Khârn the Betrayer), but he's not going to outdo a more expensive option in raw kill tally or ridiciulousness of feats.

 

-Stormshrug

 

Stat-wise, a WGBL is only meant for MEQ. Attached to a Wolf Scout pack, he is going to come in on most enemies long range support (tanks/dev squad equivalent) and just wreck the hell out of it. Of course you are not going to do that to a shooty fex, but hopefully you would know better then to do that.

 

Wolf Scouts already can be optimized to smoke out some armor. With an attached WGBL, they will indeed smoke out the long range ground forces as well causing a much more serious look at his own back lines and allocating forces to deal with them thus taking them away from the front line.

[Stormshrug]

Stat-wise, a WGBL is only meant for MEQ. Attached to a Wolf Scout pack, he is going to come in on most enemies long range support (tanks/dev squad equivalent) and just wreck the hell out of it. Of course you are not going to do that to a shooty fex, but hopefully you would know better then to do that.

 

Wolf Scouts already can be optimized to smoke out some armor. With an attached WGBL, they will indeed smoke out the long range ground forces as well causing a much more serious look at his own back lines and allocating forces to deal with them thus taking them away from the front line.

 

I agree completely. That said, I've also run up against BA and Tyranid comps (and it's perfectly doable with SW, too, if you want) that simply don't HAVE any long range support. Takes away too many points from extra Sanguinary Guard / Tyranid Warriors. In cases like that, it's hard to get the most out of him (and, hence, I run a Vindicator instead if I know my opponent and we're both 'teching').

 

-Stormshrug

[Grimtooth]

Stat-wise, a WGBL is only meant for MEQ. Attached to a Wolf Scout pack, he is going to come in on most enemies long range support (tanks/dev squad equivalent) and just wreck the hell out of it. Of course you are not going to do that to a shooty fex, but hopefully you would know better then to do that.

 

Wolf Scouts already can be optimized to smoke out some armor. With an attached WGBL, they will indeed smoke out the long range ground forces as well causing a much more serious look at his own back lines and allocating forces to deal with them thus taking them away from the front line.

 

I agree completely. That said, I've also run up against BA and Tyranid comps (and it's perfectly doable with SW, too, if you want) that simply don't HAVE any long range support. Takes away too many points from extra Sanguinary Guard / Tyranid Warriors. In cases like that, it's hard to get the most out of him (and, hence, I run a Vindicator instead if I know my opponent and we're both 'teching').

 

-Stormshrug

 

In that case, I wouldn't OBEL them either, but instead use them to protect my rear tank line from deep striking DOA BA thinking about alpha striking my back lines. They might get one of my tanks on their initial deep strike, but then get hit pretty damn hard my turn instead of hopping to the next tank to pop with hand meltas.

 

Against Nids, they could be fodder if OBEL or serving as a defense against tunneling units. I would probably use them as an infiltration denying unit to protect a flank or whatnot before hitting hard on a flanking counter assault.

[BDS]

Thanks for the input. I really love the SW codex as it allows different and competitive builds. I have in the past run mega HQ's, and will definitely be enjoying Bjorn and Grimnar. But, as I build my models I tend to go....ah this guy could be a WGBL, he looks cool, how could I make him work, etc.

 

I will definitely be trying out my soon to be modelled Thorson Wolftrail, with two Fen wolves to lead a scout scoud. The scout sqoud may also include a wolf guard for extra punch at times.

 

Thanks,

 

BDS

[Stormshrug]

In that case, I wouldn't OBEL them either, but instead use them to protect my rear tank line from deep striking DOA BA thinking about alpha striking my back lines. They might get one of my tanks on their initial deep strike, but then get hit pretty damn hard my turn instead of hopping to the next tank to pop with hand meltas.

 

Against Nids, they could be fodder if OBEL or serving as a defense against tunneling units. I would probably use them as an infiltration denying unit to protect a flank or whatnot before hitting hard on a flanking counter assault.

 

 

I think you misunderstood me. I *always* field at least one pack of Wolf Scouts. Those guys are never not useful, given how friggin' cheap they are and their high access to special weapons. And they very rarely don't pull their weight.

 

To uphold his saga, however, the WGBL with Saga of the Hunter *has* to start in reserve... if he could Infiltrate, he'd be considerably better, and I'd probably keep using him in matches against opponents with few targets vulnerable to CC ambushes. Having him *have* to start off the board means that against a bum-rush army with few ranged elements (certain BA, SW, Nids, etc), his arriving late is ONLY to my opponent's benefit, since it splits up my army's killing power.

 

-Stormshrug

[Denis]

And what about rules that says "when independent character without scout or infiltrate USR joins a unit that has this rules, unit lose this USR"? And since battle leader dont have this rules unit of scouts lose them and can't outflank at all?

[Stormshrug]

And what about rules that says "when independent character without scout or infiltrate USR joins a unit that has this rules, unit lose this USR"? And since battle leader dont have this rules unit of scouts lose them and can't outflank at all?

 

 

At this point in the discussion, I think everybody is just assuming that it works the way it seems to have been intended to work. I refer you to the many, many, many pages of heated discussion in prior threads if you're realy hankering to watch somebody flog a deceased equine with a power fist. Just use the search function for "Saga of the Hunter" and make sure to bring a raincoat for the splatter.

 

-Stormshrug

[TiguriusX]

pg 48 BRB Under "Special Rules"

 

The answer as to why they cannot is there. Summary: Unit's special rules are not conferred upon the IC and vice-versa, unless specifically implicated in the rule itself.

 

 

I thank you for quoting a rule book page and rule. Your example on page 48 refers to "Universal Special Rules"(USR's) as outlined in the passage you quoted. The examples in the quoted passage also use USR's. OBEL is not a universal special rule. It is a d6 table used by the unit "Wolf Scouts" when they use the universal special rule "outflank".

 

 

BDS

 

ps; edited. Somehow the wrong post was quoted with the quote function.

While this argument makes sense at first glance it is flawed.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the BRB only contains USRs...it doesn't have codex specific rules (that is the point of a codex). It is only natural it would use a USR in an example for how the rules it contains work. The BRB is providing a framework for you to use with your codex. The example is not a limitation on how the rules work or interact.

 

I don't want to flog the dead horse with a power fist and derail this thread but I just want to make sure you understand what it is you are arguing.

[BDS]

pg 48 BRB Under "Special Rules"

 

The answer as to why they cannot is there. Summary: Unit's special rules are not conferred upon the IC and vice-versa, unless specifically implicated in the rule itself.

 

 

I thank you for quoting a rule book page and rule. Your example on page 48 refers to "Universal Special Rules"(USR's) as outlined in the passage you quoted. The examples in the quoted passage also use USR's. OBEL is not a universal special rule. It is a d6 table used by the unit "Wolf Scouts" when they use the universal special rule "outflank".

 

 

BDS

 

ps; edited. Somehow the wrong post was quoted with the quote function.

While this argument makes sense at first glance it is flawed.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the BRB only contains USRs...it doesn't have codex specific rules (that is the point of a codex). It is only natural it would use a USR in an example for how the rules it contains work. The BRB is providing a framework for you to use with your codex. The example is not a limitation on how the rules work or interact.

 

I don't want to flog the dead horse with a power fist and derail this thread but I just want to make sure you understand what it is you are arguing.

 

I can go along with this line of thought. Since codex trumps BBB...SW codex says OBEL works as described above, and also says scouts have outflank, the SW FAQ states a IC with "Saga of the WOlf" has outflank and can join units of wolf scouts....

 

BDS

[TiguriusX]

I can go along with this line of thought. Since codex trumps BBB...SW codex says OBEL works as described above, and also says scouts have outflank, the SW FAQ states a IC with "Saga of the WOlf" has outflank and can join units of wolf scouts....

 

BDS

What exactly from SW codex is trumping BRB to grant OBEL to IC?

 

Not saying you are wrong...just not following

[Denis]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the BRB only contains USRs...

Special Rules

When an independent character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the 'stubborn'

special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character, and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit. In some cases

though, the independent character or the unit may lose their special rules as a result of the character joining the unit. For example, If an independent character without the 'infiltrate' special rule joins a unit of infiltrators during deployment, the unit cannot infiltrate (see the Universal Special Rules section for more details).

 

USR used here only as examples (in rule book no other special rules at all so it's natural to use them as examples) and there is no notice of the fact that this rule can only be applied to USR.