Consensus on WG Battle Leader and Saga of Hunter

[MaleOpener]

A bit off topic here, but why would you place a WGBL into a wolf scout pack?

 

Why not just use a member of the WG, and not fiddle with such rulings?

 

I find wolf scouts a bit fragile, though they can perform well at times.

[Stormshrug]

A bit off topic here, but why would you place a WGBL into a wolf scout pack?

 

Why not just use a member of the WG, and not fiddle with such rulings?

 

Because you can do both.

 

-Stormshrug

[JamesI]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't OBEL just a modification to outflank?

 

So, an IC with Saga of the Hunter has outflank, joins scouts who also have outflank. Scouts outflanking use the OBEL chart, so the whole group OBELs. Isn't that the way it works, both by RAW and RAI?

[Grimtooth]

And what about rules that says "when independent character without scout or infiltrate USR joins a unit that has this rules, unit lose this USR"? And since battle leader dont have this rules unit of scouts lose them and can't outflank at all?

 

Read the Scout and Infiltrate USR. Both confer the outflank rule.

 

So,

 

1. Wolf Scouts have Scout USR which confers outflank.

 

2. IC with SoH joins Wolf Scouts.

 

3. Wolf Scouts lose Scout USR, but do not lose outflank because it was already conferred and they do not lose it when joined by the IC because the IC has SoH which allows outflank.

 

Clear?

[Stormshrug]

And what about rules that says "when independent character without scout or infiltrate USR joins a unit that has this rules, unit lose this USR"? And since battle leader dont have this rules unit of scouts lose them and can't outflank at all?

 

Read the Scout and Infiltrate USR. Both confer the outflank rule.

 

So,

 

1. Wolf Scouts have Scout USR which confers outflank.

 

2. IC with SoH joins Wolf Scouts.

 

3. Wolf Scouts lose Scout USR, but do not lose outflank because it was already conferred and they do not lose it when joined by the IC because the IC has SoH which allows outflank.

 

Clear?

 

As mud.

[Grimtooth]

And what about rules that says "when independent character without scout or infiltrate USR joins a unit that has this rules, unit lose this USR"? And since battle leader dont have this rules unit of scouts lose them and can't outflank at all?

 

Read the Scout and Infiltrate USR. Both confer the outflank rule.

 

So,

 

1. Wolf Scouts have Scout USR which confers outflank.

 

2. IC with SoH joins Wolf Scouts.

 

3. Wolf Scouts lose Scout USR, but do not lose outflank because it was already conferred and they do not lose it when joined by the IC because the IC has SoH which allows outflank.

 

Clear?

 

As mud.

 

At what point does your reading comprehension break down?

 

If something confers something, you have the original and now whatever it conferred. If you take away the original, whatever was conferred is not then taken away. It remains.

[WG Vrox]

Lets just say that WGBL can OBEL with SoH,

 

Has anyone ran a squad of 10 Wolf Scouts with a MotW member, 2PP, 1MG, joined by a WG with MotW CM/MB and a WGBL with SoH, MotW CM/MB, 2 Fen Wolves?

 

I would think it would a fun fluffy way to bring some serious pain to the back lines and make any commander center up his forces on the board. Of course 350 points makes it a bit of a investment, however one that I think you could expect a return on if only in Psy-Ops.

 

Vrox.

[TiguriusX]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't OBEL just a modification to outflank?

 

So, an IC with Saga of the Hunter has outflank, joins scouts who also have outflank. Scouts outflanking use the OBEL chart, so the whole group OBELs. Isn't that the way it works, both by RAW and RAI?

Even though OBEL is merely modifying outflank it is still a "special rule" (listed under scout special rules on p.88)

The RAW for IC should then control what happens when an IC without the OBEL joins the scout unit

I believe the disagreement is over how RAW controls that IC/Scout interaction

 

Whether RAW makes sense is a completely different story

[JamesI]

Doesn't the FAQ say that an IC joined to scouts causes the scouts to lose OBEL unless the IC has Saga of the Hunter?

[TiguriusX]

Doesn't the FAQ say that an IC joined to scouts causes the scouts to lose OBEL unless the IC has Saga of the Hunter?

 

 

Nope...only talks about "outflank"

 

Big swing and miss by FAQ team

[Karack Blackstone]

Reread BEL again, the first thing it says is as or instead of outflanking... (basically instead of outflanking, one uses the BEL special rule.)

 

By doing so with SoH on an IC, the unit has outflank. This by all clear rules reading should allow an IC to BEL with the Scouts held together. Also read the Saga Oath under the Sagas page (pg # eludes me, don't have 'Dex) and see that it says to hold such an IC in Reserve.

 

Presumably if you can follow my logic, IC's with SoH can Outflank, and instead of Outflank, one can choose to use the BEL rule instead. Scouts and IC both have outflank, therefore the combined unit can BEL.

[Grimtooth]

Reread BEL again, the first thing it says is as or instead of outflanking... (basically instead of outflanking, one uses the BEL special rule.)

 

By doing so with SoH on an IC, the unit has outflank. This by all clear rules reading should allow an IC to BEL with the Scouts held together. Also read the Saga Oath under the Sagas page (pg # eludes me, don't have 'Dex) and see that it says to hold such an IC in Reserve.

 

Presumably if you can follow my logic, IC's with SoH can Outflank, and instead of Outflank, one can choose to use the BEL rule instead. Scouts and IC both have outflank, therefore the combined unit can BEL.

 

An IC with SoH can only outflank. And IC with SoH can join a Wolf Scout unit and per the OBEL rules, when a Wolf Scout unit outflanks, it does so via the OBEL rules.

 

Tig, as much as you point out the rules for an IC joining a unit you have yet to discredit anyway the RAW argument that I have put forth.

 

Outflank and being part of the Wolf Scout unit are the only two requirements for OBEL. An IC with SoH joined to a Wolf Scout unit fulfills both of those requirements.

 

If you want a specific example that GW put into place to show that a unit special rule does not apply, look at Berserk Charge. I don't have the exact wording, but it specifically tells you that the power does not work to attached units. The OBEL is specific to who it allows to use it, member of the unit and have outflank.

[Stormshrug]

And what about rules that says "when independent character without scout or infiltrate USR joins a unit that has this rules, unit lose this USR"? And since battle leader dont have this rules unit of scouts lose them and can't outflank at all?

 

Read the Scout and Infiltrate USR. Both confer the outflank rule.

 

So,

 

1. Wolf Scouts have Scout USR which confers outflank.

 

2. IC with SoH joins Wolf Scouts.

 

3. Wolf Scouts lose Scout USR, but do not lose outflank because it was already conferred and they do not lose it when joined by the IC because the IC has SoH which allows outflank.

 

Clear?

 

As mud.

 

At what point does your reading comprehension break down?

 

If something confers something, you have the original and now whatever it conferred. If you take away the original, whatever was conferred is not then taken away. It remains.

 

I understand your interpretation. I also understand the six other interpretations put forth in this thread, and many of them also hold water.

 

Therein lies the problem. We're dealing with interpretations, not explicit rules. The meanings of words are being called into question, not just in the particulars of thier use by GW, but more generally. Until we get an FAQ on the matter, there will be no 'real' consensus.

 

-Stormshrug

[TiguriusX]

Reread BEL again, the first thing it says is as or instead of outflanking... (basically instead of outflanking, one uses the BEL special rule.)

 

By doing so with SoH on an IC, the unit has outflank. This by all clear rules reading should allow an IC to BEL with the Scouts held together. Also read the Saga Oath under the Sagas page (pg # eludes me, don't have 'Dex) and see that it says to hold such an IC in Reserve.

 

Presumably if you can follow my logic, IC's with SoH can Outflank, and instead of Outflank, one can choose to use the BEL rule instead. Scouts and IC both have outflank, therefore the combined unit can BEL.

 

An IC with SoH can only outflank. And IC with SoH can join a Wolf Scout unit and per the OBEL rules, when a Wolf Scout unit outflanks, it does so via the OBEL rules.

 

Tig, as much as you point out the rules for an IC joining a unit you have yet to discredit anyway the RAW argument that I have put forth.

 

Outflank and being part of the Wolf Scout unit are the only two requirements for OBEL. An IC with SoH joined to a Wolf Scout unit fulfills both of those requirements.

 

If you want a specific example that GW put into place to show that a unit special rule does not apply, look at Berserk Charge. I don't have the exact wording, but it specifically tells you that the power does not work to attached units. The OBEL is specific to who it allows to use it, member of the unit and have outflank.

 

I am not trying to have a full blown RAW discussion. This isn't my thread and all previous OBELs like that ended up locked

 

I just wanted to point people in the direction of the applicable rules so new pups aren't misled by the lack of opposing arguments

[BDS]

Lets just say that WGBL can OBEL with SoH,

 

Has anyone ran a squad of 10 Wolf Scouts with a MotW member, 2PP, 1MG, joined by a WG with MotW CM/MB and a WGBL with SoH, MotW CM/MB, 2 Fen Wolves?

 

I would think it would a fun fluffy way to bring some serious pain to the back lines and make any commander center up his forces on the board. Of course 350 points makes it a bit of a investment, however one that I think you could expect a return on if only in Psy-Ops.

 

Vrox.

 

Vrox,

Ran something similar night before last. 2000pts SW vs Orks. I rand WGBL (PP, FA, 2 wolves, melta bombs), 7 scouts, 1 mg, 1 wulfen, 1 PP, WG (FA, PP, melta bombs). I rolled a 2 so came in on the right flank. Took out 20 grots, 10 lootas, and Ork Dred, in two turns....liked it.

 

Ended up keeping the group together. But, I realized I like the option that the WGBL can split off and take on another target...this increased the tactical applications that are possible. I have not decided on whether the PP/FA is better than dual WC/Melta bomb yet, but both models look cool so maybe I will build both.

 

On a related note, same game, my Rune Priest with Saga of Beast, wiffed all game with LL, but succesfully used the reroll on his melta bomb to lay waste to a 200pt Forge World Drednaught monstrosity...a legend begins for this yound Rune Priest.

 

Thanks,

BDS

[Adarul Greystalker]

I like to run this setup:

 

Wolf Guard Battle Leader (Wolf Claw, Storm Shield, Melta Bombs, Wolf Tail Talisman, Saga of the Hunter)

Wolf Guard (Combi-Melta, Power Fist)

Wolf Scout (Meltagun, Power Weapon, Close Combat Weapon)

4 Wolf Scouts

 

The wolf scouts are an MVP unit almost every time I run them. When I run the battle leader with them, I tend to split him off after a turn or so to maximize the disruption they can create. I have an all-comers list that uses these units, and in that case, I leave a space open in one of my grey hunter rhinos so that I can deploy the battle leader with them if outflanking him would be disadvantageous.

[Stormshrug]

The wolf scouts are an MVP unit almost every time I run them. When I run the battle leader with them, I tend to split him off after a turn or so to maximize the disruption they can create. I have an all-comers list that uses these units, and in that case, I leave a space open in one of my grey hunter rhinos so that I can deploy the battle leader with them if outflanking him would be disadvantageous.

 

Doesn't this... errr... explicitly run counter to the Oath "Always start in Reserve?" Or do you start the Rhinos with the GHs in Reserve somehow?

 

-Stormshrug

[Adarul Greystalker]

Yeah, deploying with the grey hunters in the rhino ignores the oath. I don't think it's that big of a deal.

[Stormshrug]

Yeah, deploying with the grey hunters in the rhino ignores the oath. I don't think it's that big of a deal.

 

BAD! NO COOKIE!

 

Note: I'm mostly kidding. Unlike some other sagas, this one's pretty pointless unless you follow the oath.

 

-Stormshrug

[Adarul Greystalker]

No cookie? Do they even serve those at the Fang? <_< I would prefer mead-roasted caribou and a mug of dark ale anyway!

 

You're right, though. Saga of the hunter is very pointless if you have a storm shield and don't outflank. The idea is that I use it that way in a take-all-comers list when my primary plan ends up not being a very good idea.

[Grey Mage]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't OBEL just a modification to outflank?

 

So, an IC with Saga of the Hunter has outflank, joins scouts who also have outflank. Scouts outflanking use the OBEL chart, so the whole group OBELs. Isn't that the way it works, both by RAW and RAI?

Thats the way Ive always read it.