Enhance vs. Death Masks

[BladeEncarmine]

Yay... my own armies are giving me trouble again!.

 

Situation: Dante and an assault squad charged a squad of Enhanced Storm Guardians. My friend takes the Death Mask test and fails. I tell him he is WS2 because the DM sets his WS to 1, then Enhances adds 1 to it. He claims that the DM overrides Enhance, so he should only be WS1... mostly because I think he wanted the guardians to not hurt me (hit on 5s instead of 4s) so his D-cannons could obliterate me. We again diced off and this time he won it, so I slaughtered all of them save the warlock... who held XD.

 

Now, not that I'm complaining if this his interpretation is the case (for my BA, my Eldar would have a screaming fit ;) )... but I do like to know things and I'm looking for support for either side of the argument.

 

Thanks in advance for my stupid questions again :) .

[Mordekiem]

This is an example of a straight up rule conflict and there is no answer. Just dice off.

 

Unless the death mask says something about their base WS or something.

[Roland Durendal]

I actually think your friend played it right. Enhance takes place first (correct me if I'm wrong), usually in his phase. It then adjusts their WS to be +1 (which in this case is WS4). The death mask reduces your WS to 1, and so it would take that adjusted WS4 to WS1. Hopefully this makes sense...

[Grey Mage]

Yep, Id agree that the most recent modifier takes precedence here. Even if that does suck for my eldar. *sighs*.

[Koremu]

Enhance is "always on", so takes place before the Death Mask effect, which is only under certain circumstances, so yeas, I'd rule that WS1 is correct (and would likewise be the same in an Eldar v. Eldar battle with Banshees)

[Mordekiem]

Yet the very logic that enhance is always on means that they should have WS2. The deathmask turns it off briefly by making the WS 1, but then enhance turns right back on. And then the enhance would be the most recent effect.

 

It is like those birthday candles you can't blow out. The Deathmask tries to blow them out, but they just relite.

 

 

Like I said. Dice it off. ;)

[Roland Durendal]

Here's how I see it working:

 

Eldar Turn: Cast Enhance. Guardians now WS+1 (WS4)

BA Turn: Assault Guardians above. Guardians are stile WS4. Death Mask is used on Guardians. Guardians go from WS4 to WS1. Guardians are squished.

 

It's not Guardians are WS4 but then Death Masked to WS1 but then re-enhanced to 4. They are at 4 to begin with and then Death Mask takes their WS and brings it to 1. I don't have my codex in front of me, but unless Death Mask specifically states it takes their BASE WS to 1, it works as I describe. If it takes their Base WS to 1 though, I could see how there might be wiggle room to argue for WS2.

[angry man]

i would take the WS to be 2. this is how i see it:

 

normal WS 3 (we'll call WS x) - so at the moment x=3

enhance +1 to WS, so :x+1 = 4

 

i would interpret it that the dedath masks reduce the WS (x) to 1, so with enhance it is x+1=2

 

just the way that i'd interpret it

 

AM

[Mordekiem]

Eldar Turn: Cast Enhance. Guardians now WS+1 (WS4)

BA Turn: Assault Guardians above. Guardians are stile WS4. Death Mask is used on Guardians. Guardians go from WS4 to WS1. Guardians are squished.

Eldar do not "cast" enhance. It is simply always on. Like ATSKNF for marines. It does not turn on or off it simply is.

[Koremu]

Yet the very logic that enhance is always on means that they should have WS2. The deathmask turns it off briefly by making the WS 1, but then enhance turns right back on. And then the enhance would be the most recent effect.

No, the fact that enhance is passive and the Death Mask active results in WS1 - The Enhance bonus happens before the DM, so gets nullified.

[JamesI]

Yet the very logic that enhance is always on means that they should have WS2. The deathmask turns it off briefly by making the WS 1, but then enhance turns right back on. And then the enhance would be the most recent effect.

No, the fact that enhance is passive and the Death Mask active results in WS1 - The Enhance bonus happens before the DM, so gets nullified.

This is the way I see it too. An effect like death masks that set a stat at something goes last. Like Furious charge on Seth, Astorath or Corbulo. Their strength goes up, then their weapon hits at a particular strength set in the rules so the furious charge strength increase is irrelevant.

[Mordekiem]

Yet the very logic that enhance is always on means that they should have WS2. The deathmask turns it off briefly by making the WS 1, but then enhance turns right back on. And then the enhance would be the most recent effect.

No, the fact that enhance is passive and the Death Mask active results in WS1 - The Enhance bonus happens before the DM, so gets nullified.

Both arguments are completely valid and logical. And both are supported by directly conflicting rules with absolutely no way to resolve them.

 

Except one:

 

Let's roll off to see who wins. :)

[SeattleDV8]

Ding ding ding!

Mordekiem is correct in that there is no correct answer.

Discuss this pregame or roll off.

[bladeofregret]

this is tricky, because the book says the WS is reduced to 1 for the duration of the assault phase. It's not worded in such a way that it is unchangeable like for ex. how furious charge interacts with powerfist initiative or Seth's blood reaver strength.

 

I would argue that the BASE WS is reduced to 1 but any modifiers still apply because it's not written in a way to deny said modifiers, again referring to my earlier examples and how they are written in such a way that they do block the modifiers.