RAS in Razorbacks

[Ultramarcos]

Hi Guys,

 

this weekend I played for the first time my 2000pts list in a tournament. While I thought I would shake the world with my BAs, I did a simple 12place in a 16 tournament.

My army was looking good in theory but in the table, the truth is something else...the reason of my thread is that my core unities were pretty much RAS in razorbacks and didn't work as I thought so here goes some rationalization on my learnings this weekend, I hope it helps others as well, and please constructive comments are wellcome here.

Ok, the list was

Mephy

Libby JP (Shield,Unleash)

2 SP

1 10men RAS with JP

2 5 men RAS Razorback AssCannon

1 6 men RAS Razorback Flamer

2 Baals

2 Vindies.

 

For the sake of the subject I will stick to the performance of the razorbacks.

 

Highlights.

- Super mobility and hard to be knocked out in cc...- in no time you are in the face of your adversary's army and on top of that if you keep moving, they will hit only on the 6 for close combat.

- twin Assault Cannon are fantastic weapon and did a lot of damage both in troops and in light-medium armoured vehicules.

 

What I didn't like

- not enough people inside to sustain a fight for more than the turn you charged.

- Power fist in small groups are waste

 

 

Took me 3 games and 3 losses to realize that I should keep moving the Razorback in a Dancing mode (like Attack bikes or Speeders but obviously not as good as they do) and unleash the guys inside only in the last minute and this is the first learning

1- keep moving the razorbacks and only disembark the guys inside when is really needed.

 

2 -Make sure you have redundant unities, when you get 2 unitiies of 5 or 6 charging one unity is much more effective then 2 small charging different unities. (obvious but again, once you are in the game you forget that)

 

3- Make sure you spare them for the strategical attack (Behind Vindies or with some cover somewhere) and again profit from their speed.

 

4- saturate the list with them so you can Min/max the list. 3 is not really a good number I would go for 4 at least...or use one /a couple for objectives taken...but still there are better options for that.

 

My opinioin at the end is, either you specialize the list in a Razorback rush, with as much as you can...droping Vindies and Baals or don't bother...they are average in Move/shoo/Fight but not specialyst in none of those things.

 

Someone said in this forum that the new dex should be used a scalpel, not a hammer...I trully understand the statement now.

 

Marcos (still recovering from the weekend)

[SamaNagol]

When you say 'droping Vindicators and baal predators or dont bother' can you elaborate on that? I find they compliment Razorbacks incredibly well.

[angel of justice]

just a few thoughts

 

I have found that giving the sergeant in the razorback RAS a power weapon and a priest with a power weapon makes razorbacks a lot more survivable considering that most of the time the army ignores it for the 6 marines that just shredded a combat squad. This also works if you have a squad of 5 death company and 2 power weapons plus a chaplain.

 

Heavy flamers on razorbacks seem dangerous to me, since they only get one or 2 shots and when they do there in melta deathzone range and rapid-fire range for nasty things like pulse rifles and plasma guns.

[Ultramarcos]

When you say 'droping Vindicators and baal predators or dont bother' can you elaborate on that? I find they compliment Razorbacks incredibly well.

Yes, for sure they do, but my point is, if you want to use a list based on Razorbacks (Min/Max), you better try to fit as much of them as you can, in the sense of, don't do as I did and put a partial Razorback driven list. I was not being literal in that statement, I don't go without one or both os those choices unless something realy good is replacing it.

 

 

To angel of justice comments, I agree with you, PW works much better than powerfists (thanks Moritcon) in small lists at the point that I see them a wast of points, also I agree that the SPs are really effective in the game...I'm still a bit unconfortable to give them power weapon as it will pump their price really high.

For the flamers...it's pretty much what I was trying to say...the theory is good, but they don't work.

 

 

Marcos

[SamaNagol]

I have put a Heavy Flamer on my Death Company's Razorback. I am reconsidering it as I would probably be better off with Heavy Bolters. However they would be stuck in the enemy lines by that time after dropping off the lads.

[Ultramarcos]

I have put a Heavy Flamer on my Death Company's Razorback. I am reconsidering it as I would probably be better off with Heavy Bolters. However they would be stuck in the enemy lines by that time after dropping off the lads.

IMHO, I would discard Razorback and try to put more bodies on the DC in a rhino. But that's me.

[SamaNagol]

With what points? It is not like a Razorback costs more than a Rhino. If you have a smaller squad, you are effectively getting a heavy weapon for 5pts.

[Dingareth]

Having more bodies when you hit combat helps...

 

Also, I've found RazorAS to be great. Just don't worry about priests, power fists, or power weapons. Anything you were going to beat in cc with a 5 man squad won't need a PW or FC to die, and anything that the PW or FnP would help against is going to murder a 5 man squad. If you've got the points, a special wepom can be good, but I'd draw the line at 160 points. 5 guys, TLAC Razorback, and a flamer is great. 4 of the are better though!

[SamaNagol]

The art of using Fast Razorbacks is to whittle down squads at range so that your 6 men with Power Weapon and Meltagun can take them on the charge.

[wookielips]

im with dingareth on this one.

 

i have 2 killer units on my list, and 4 RAS 5 to hold objectives. Even with 4xAssaultCan, and 2 more on baals, i do not expect to have the RAS 5 kill anything. their job is to stay in the transport and provide plenty of shooty.

 

if i have a home objective that i expect nothing to ever come contest (including units my opponent keeps in reserve), i will dump the one of the RAS 5 out on that. otherwise, they stay embarked while all the RBs move around shooting stuff to bits (along with the LR-Godhammer and 2xAC baals and 1xFlame baal).

 

they are NOT who i am charging with, so they do not have anything more than a flamer in each squad, nor do they have any fancy IPs near them.

 

i may use one or two in a two objective (possibly 3 obj) game to assist in a large combat, but thats about it. the units i have that are made to CC are both larger and harder hitting (dante w SG (2xIP/1xPF) w chapter banner w SP-PW (DS'ing in), RAS 10 (2xMG, 1xPF) in LR with unleash rage libby + SP-IP & PW)

[SamaNagol]

It is entirely dependent on game size. I only play 1500pts, so having all those units is not an option.

[Ultramarcos]

At the end, what I learned in the hard way, looks like to be the consensus.

5 men RAS are to be minimized in points, and stay inside until the last minute to either take objective or be a support to other major unity in CC.

Would that summaries the discussion so far ?

[SamaNagol]

Yes, I NEVER disembark from the Razorback until I know I have absolute certainty of winning an Assault or I desperately need the extra Meltagun shot to shift a vehicle off something.

[wookielips]

Yes, I NEVER disembark from the Razorback until I know I have absolute certainty of winning an Assault or I desperately need the extra Meltagun shot to shift a vehicle off something.

 

im learning that the hard way. but i wish someone had told me that a month ago :)

 

even less of a reason for me to disembark, i never put meltas in such a small unit. eh, live and learn.