Am I Right?

[Hinti]

Hi Folks!!!

 

I've an very interessting Diskussion going on with a Friend (Teammate) of mine. Background is: We've a APO-Game in ~3 Weeks.

I'm fielding some GK's (with at least one GM, using the GK Datasheet). Sidearm to my IG. Thats it.

The Question is:

The Chaos-Boys are fielding Anggrath (wich ist as per Apo Book) a Gargant Creature. So MY Opinion is, that my GM ist able to remove him from the table with our awesome NPW only WE have........he say's NO. Directing me to Page 91 in the APO Rulebook, wich means no instant kill (not the Rule!!!) but only w3 Wounds??

 

So is HE right, or am I??

 

bad englisch i know

 

plz no Discussion about Yes or NO the NPW has this ability in "normal" Cases.........it has it :P;) ;)

 

 

THX

Hinti

[the jeske]

because of the old wording the nfw has it is slain ouright . gargantuan creatures rules only say that if they are ID and its not a titan killer weapon they lose X wounds. nothing about slain ouright , so he gets one shoted.

[Hinti]

ID =???

I did'nt unterstand anything?????? Sorry about that........lets do it the easy way.

Your Post is supporting my Opinion?

[Gaz1858]

Yes because the Nemesis Force Weapon does not cause Instant Death (ID) and instead just removes all wounds then yes I and the Jeske agree with you.

[number6]

Yes, thejeske has the right of it with the RAW.

 

But I still think it's wrong and you shouldn't allow it. It's Apocalypse! This game is not meant to be competitive. It's supposed to be laid back, pew-pew, beer-n-pretzels.

 

Everybody knows that the DH force weapons rules are old. Everybody knows that it's broken. Most of us continue to allow it only because the army as a whole is so gimped and, frankly, the single broken FW we can usually afford to field (if at all! :tu: ) isn't going to make or break the game.

 

But those old rules in the context of Apoc are definitely broken. And also definitely unsporting. Play the DH FW as if it just caused Instant Death normally ... you know, like all the other FWs in the game do. (At least with respect to Gargantuan creatures. Maybe continue to allow "just kill it" for smaller beasties. Either way, house rule it. It's Apoc! It's friendly! Be friendly!)

[Napalm]

we have some simmilar threads here in the board.. fighting Anngrath & Killing an Hierophant etc.

 

first you have to know the special rules of the gargantuam creatures

 

They are fearless, and are not affected by psychic powers (friendly or enemy) without strengh value.

 

"All gargantuam creatures are Immune to the Instand Death Rule. In ADDITION, they are not affected by any attack that would normally kill a model automatically (like a force weapon, an attack that kills as a result of a failed characteristic test, etc.) Such an attack cause D3 wounds...

 

so he gets D3 wounds, trough the super awesome NFW instead getting slayn outright....

[Hinti]

"All gargantuam creatures are Immune to the Instand Death Rule. In ADDITION, they are not affected by any attack that would normally kill a model automatically (like a force weapon, an attack that kills as a result of a failed characteristic test, etc.) Such an attack cause D3 wounds...

 

so he gets D3 wounds, trough the super awesome NFW instead getting slayn outright....

 

I'm still not suporting your Opinion (as you know), because all the written Rules for the Big Ones are in NO direct Relation to the NPW!!! The NPW has NOT the ID Rule (as written in RB 5.th)........read the Codex!! I know ist strictly RAW...........but well :sweat:

 

I'll try to explain:

The Situation is, my GM charge Anggrath (has Grimorie and Sacred) all I have to try to ist getting at least ONE LP los for HIM, then I have to do an PSI Test if solved, Anggrath is gone.....

I've NEVER said that would be easy (it will probably not), but ist is possible in MY way......

 

Maybe this help a little bit.......

 

If I'm wrong, call the Ordo Malleus ;) ;) ;)

 

btw: Napalm IS my Teammate *gggg*

 

greetz

Hinti

[Inquisitor Fox]

The key is "by any attack that would normally kill a model automatically"

 

It seems pretty clear to me that remove all remaining wounds is the same as "attack that would normally kill a model automatically" which goes to the D3 wounds. I happen to agree with number6 on this one, Apocalypse is about fun and having a good time, it's not supposed to be highly competative. Thankfully I live in a region that seems to do the same with the small games too, so it's a win-win for me. I definately side on the D3 wounds side of this discussion :)

[Justicar Valius]

Besides you don't get in combat with Angrath, he is the chaos 18" wide "i own this bubble"

 

Lead him away with juicy troop squads in rhinos don't even boither getting in combat.

[Chengar Qordath]

The key is "by any attack that would normally kill a model automatically"

 

It seems pretty clear to me that remove all remaining wounds is the same as "attack that would normally kill a model automatically" which goes to the D3 wounds. I happen to agree with number6 on this one, Apocalypse is about fun and having a good time, it's not supposed to be highly competative. Thankfully I live in a region that seems to do the same with the small games too, so it's a win-win for me. I definately side on the D3 wounds side of this discussion :D

I have to agree with INP's logic here; since the rules specifically cite "any attack that would normally kill a model automatically" instead of just referring to the Instant Death rule, Gargantuan creatures only take D3 wounds from a GKGM's NFW.

[skarn]

In the 3rd Vraks book, Hector Rex's sword "slays ouright" anything it wounds, just like a GM NFW. It also states it does D3 wounds to gargantuan creatures...

[Whitefireinferno]

The Gargantuan thing rules in the APOC book mentions it don't work with Force Weapons right? and the NFW is a force weapon right? so sadly d3 wounds before death is what your best hope is.

[Hinti]

hmmm seems Napalm was right...........

Well OK have to life with that!!!!

 

Thanks

Hinti

[Inquisitor =D=]

hmmm seems Napalm was right...........

Well OK have to life with that!!!!

 

Thanks

Hinti

 

 

Win some, Lose some.

 

Good luck and Happy (daemon)Hunting!

 

=]D[=

[Eddie Orlock]

You know, if I was marshalling this game, I'd allow the big ugly to be slain outright if the Deamon Hunter Player burnt a strategic asset on giving the Grand Master the Marine Uber Weapon docterine. They are marines, so, marine assets aren't out of the question. That, and the upgrades from the crusade relic would give the master a better chance of even tagging Angrath.

 

Then again, doesn't the big meanie have a Collar of Khorne. Don't those nullify psychic attacks on a 2+, and wouldn't the instant psychic slay count as a psychic attack? It's be worth looking into, I'd have checked, but I don't have access to my reference matierials right now.

[Inquisitor Fox]

Force Weapons are a psychic attack, as they require a psychic test to activate and cannot be used if you've used another psychic power in the same turn. In the new rulebook it clarifies this as well, so a Collar of Khorne should/would protect against use of a Force Weapon much like a Psychic Hood.

[skarn]

He doesn't have a collar of khorne

[the jeske]

Force Weapons are a psychic attack, as they require a psychic test to activate and cannot be used if you've used another psychic power in the same turn.

does it actualy say this in the GH codex ? because codex >rule book.

[Hinti]

Sine the DH Codex is 3rd Edi(?) Inquisitor NicolePyykkonen ist "wrong"......Our Entry for Force Weapon is different from the 5.th Rdi RB. And as GW by them self says: Codey overrules RB

But thats NOT the Question here................the GK GM NFW ist the most Powerfull FW in the Game

[Chengar Qordath]

Force Weapons are a psychic attack, as they require a psychic test to activate and cannot be used if you've used another psychic power in the same turn.

does it actualy say this in the GH codex ? because codex >rule book.

Actually, that is a non-issue since the Collar of Khorne/Blessing of the Blood God specifically mentions force weapons as well as psychic powers. Of course, since the unit question might not have that upgrade, the question might be even more moot than it already is.

[Inquisitor Fox]

@the jeske & Hinti:

 

Ahem, quoting from our own GK Codex:

 

"Force weapons are potent psychic weapons that can only be used by a trained psyker. They are treated as a power weapon, but can unleash a psychic attack that can kill an opponent outright. Roll to hit, to wound, and to save as normal. Then, as long as at least one wound has been inflicted, make a Psychic test for the psyker against one opponent wounded by the weapon. The normal rules for using psychic powers apply, and you cannot use another psychic ability in the same turn."

 

It then goes on with a few more details not applicable to this argument.

 

This is on page 17. Tell me which part of this does not SPECIFICALLY say it is both a psychic attack, follows the normal rules for psychic powers (which include psychic hoods), and that you cannot use another psychic power in the same turn.

 

You all can say Codex>Rulebook all you want, but the Codex in this case is just as clear as the rulebook. No amount of RAW argument is going to get you out of this one ;) Psychic hoods work to stop a GK Force Weapon, it is a psychic attack, and if you use another power you're out of luck.

[the jeske]

This is on page 17. Tell me which part of this does not SPECIFICALLY say it is both a psychic attack, follows the normal rules for psychic powers (which include psychic hoods), and that you cannot use another psychic power in the same turn.

did I say that ? am 400km away from home with no dex in range , so unlike GK players I cant check how the english version is worded . that is why I asked.

 

Psychic hoods work to stop a GK Force Weapon, it is a psychic attack, and if you use another power you're out of luck.

dont think I have ever seen a GK GM actualy use a psychic power . But that is not what I was asking about I know you can hood a force weapon , it could be done in 4th ed too. I was asking if the it is a psychic attack is in the rule in the DH dex . because if it was not then it doesnt matter what the rule book says , the codex is always more important . to make an example . in the chaos dex due to how wings upgrade is worded the models with wing move like jump troops ,but can also ride in transports.

[Inquisitor Fox]

did I say that ? am 400km away from home with no dex in range , so unlike GK players I cant check how the english version is worded . that is why I asked.

My apologies, that part was directed more at Hinti... I had a bit of a day yesterday and I apologize for badly worded grammer or emphasis.

 

dont think I have ever seen a GK GM actualy use a psychic power . But that is not what I was asking about I know you can hood a force weapon , it could be done in 4th ed too. I was asking if the it is a psychic attack is in the rule in the DH dex . because if it was not then it doesnt matter what the rule book says , the codex is always more important . to make an example . in the chaos dex due to how wings upgrade is worded the models with wing move like jump troops ,but can also ride in transports.

Fair point.. the reason I bring it up is a lot of people talk of GK GM using Hammerhand (which does count as the weapon so no Force Weapon), Holocaust, or Destroy Daemon... all of which would replace the ability to use the Force Weapon :devil:

[Hinti]

Sorry I miss the Point.......???

 

What do you wan't to tell me??

 

Edit:

 

Maybe I'm a little slower then I thought........

 

The GM NFW is a FW (<----well OK, *lol*)......check

as per Codex different Rules from RB 5th Edi.............check

have to do a PSI-Test as said per Codex...........check (btw. uncheck must I??, what is if i won't?)

Solve Test, Enemys Modell is gone........check

Can't do a PSI-Force after that........check (btw. uncheck, there ist a Item in our Armory, dont know the Name)

Can't do a PSI-Force before, if he want to use the NPW as FW............check (^^^^^^^)

Al these things are in the Codex, and der is in my Opinion no Room fo an missinterpretation......

 

BUT:

Codex says, that the GK NFW inflicts a Psychic Attack.......I think it is NOT a Psychic attack like Inferno, etc.

Maybe now we are on the right way?? @Work no RB or Dex....

[Inquisitor Fox]

You can always decide to NOT attempt to use the Force Weapon as a Force Weapon, in which case it is a fancy power weapon :D It would be the same as attempting to activate the Force Weapon portion and rolling an 11 (which has happened to me before once or twice). In that case it would be just as if the GK GM were equipped with a +2 str Power Weapon (a normal termie).

 

Honestly the only difference between our Codex version and the normal rulebook, is our Codex says removes all wounds from the model, and the Rulebook says inflicts 'Instant Death'. Some people make the argument that ours technically doesn't cause 'Instant Death' because the verbage isn't the same 2 editions later... I think this argument is a load of hooey, and removing all wounds causing the model to die instantly is the same as 'Instant Death', and play it as such. All the other tests, treated as psychic attack (so the exact same as Hammerhand, Inferno, Holocaust, any chaos zapping power, Smite, etc) is the same between the two.

 

Using a Force Weapon is just like using Holocaust, Smite, Scourging, etc in terms of activating wargear or other model defenses. It is a psychic power, a psychic attack, takes tests, all of it. What the Force Weapon does (and the 5th edition rulebook clarifies this) is gives your model access to one additional psychic power that during Close Combat can be used to inflict 'Instant Death' upon a target hit by the weapon.