What is a "move"?

[Albion de Heaven]

Ok, here we have a simple question, a cheesy question, and a very big cheesy question :huh:

 

(i'm not sure that i have right spelled "cheesy")

 

From the rulebook

p62: Smoke Launcher

 

"[...] once per game, after completing its move, a vehicle with smoke launchers can trigger them (it doesn't matter how fat it moved). [....]. The vehicle may not fire any of its weapons in the same turn as it used its smoke launchers, but will count as obscured in the next enemy shooting phase, receiving a 4+ cover save. [...]"

 

So this is how it works.

Now we all know that for vehicles is quite simple since they only move in movement phase.

 

Things get more difficoult when you have a scouting vehicle or a walker

 

if "move" = "movement in movement phase" it's simple

 

but if "move" = "after the vehicle has moved" it becomes quite tricky

 

Imagine:

 

BA going first

"scout phase": BA Baal Pradator makes its scout move and uses smoke

"ba turn": Baal predator may move and fire freely

"opponent turn": Ball predator is obscured by smoke

 

Walker:

Move -> smoke = easy

Move -> run/fleet -> smoke = cheesy?

Move -> assault -> smoke (so if i wipe opponent or charge a vehicle i'm obscured) = even more cheesy?

 

I'm already in CC, it's opponent turn, i wind the combact and make a consolidation move (or even a PILE IN MOVE) after the consolidation i pop the smoke, than in my turn i can move, fire/fleet/run, charge and still be obscured in my opponent next shooting phase.

 

So, tell me your opinion, is it RAW? Am I missing some point?

 

Thank you

Albion

[SeattleDV8]

I believe you would be disallowed from popping smoke in the assault phase.

BRB Pg 62 "....once per game, after completing its move, a vehicle with smoke launchers can trigger them ..."

now we go to the walkers rules Pg. 72 Moving Walkers

"....they can move up to 6" in the Movement Phase and can assault up to 6" in the Assault Phase."

The wording would seem to be different for a reason, disallowing popping smoke except in the Movement phase and the Shooting Phase when running.

BRB pg. 72 Walkers Shooting

"...they can choose to run ....[snip].......they can still trigger their smoke launchers...."

 

Cheesy is spelled correctly but popping smoke when running isn't cheesy, it's a good idea.

[Tanhausen]

BA example:

 

If you use the smoke in the scout moves, at the beginning of your turn, the smoke is not there anymore: it was used in a previous turn.

 

So the timing would be something like : scout and then smoke; turn 1 your enemy has to deal with the smoke, at your turn 1 is has worn off.

 

Walker

 

*** If you run you can't shoot, so you can't launch smoke. *** Edit: I'm wrong, see DV8's post :D

 

I'm not sure about CC.. but I believe that smoke is a shot (and you can't shoot when in CC or when consolidating).

 

If I'm wrong... sorry, but that's the way I think is meant in the rules :P

[Albion de Heaven]

"[...] once per game, after completing its move, a vehicle with smoke launchers can trigger them (it doesn't matter how fat it moved). [....]. The vehicle may not fire any of its weapons in the same turn as it used its smoke launchers, but will count as obscured in the next enemy shooting phase, receiving a 4+ cover save. [...]"

 

 

BA example:

 

If you use the smoke in the scout moves, at the beginning of your turn, the smoke is not there anymore: it was used in a previous turn.

 

Sorry i can't find where is it said that the smoke go away. They work in in the next enemy shooting phase. So even if you have 2 moving phase in a row this doeas not trigger the "next enemy shooting".

 

 

I have another example of bad ruling that RAW can work like this:

p.76 "turbo"

bike, jetbike and so on can turoboost in the movement phase and "In the following enemy shooting phase, the bike benefits from a cover save of 3+ [...]"

of course since "[...]Controlling their bike at such speeds takes all their concentration ans skill, however, so they cannot move throught difficoult terrain, shoot, launch assaults or execute any other voluntary action in the same turn[...]"

 

but again, as it is written you can turbo in the scout movement, go first, move, shoot, assault if you want, and still be able to claim 3+ turbo in "the following enemy shooting phase"

 

is it a :D? yes it is indeed, but the question is "is it strictly legal or i am missing something?"

[Race Bannon]

Are you suggesting that a Baal Predator makes a scout move, then pops smoke, and if Baal player goes first in first turn can move again WITH smoke protection for the opponent's first turn?!

 

I thought the Scout move was not a "normal move". Thus, popping smoke is not allowed.

[Tanhausen]

Dammned cattenaccio player xDDD

 

The phases you go through (assuming you go second):

 

Deployment: you make your scout move.

 

Enemy Turn 1: moves, shoots, assaults, consolidates

 

Your Turn 1: move, shoot, assaults, consolidates

 

Smoke

 

I you launch smoke in your scout move during deployment and then your enemy has his turn, when he gets to his shooting phase it is "his next shooting phase". So if he shoots you, he has to deal with smoke, as I said in the previous post.

 

Then it is your turn 1... and the smoke has gone away.

 

Regarding Close Combat... its 4+ cover save... I don't use cover saves in CC :P

 

As for the turboboosting... I don't know how it works properly (yes, I'm DA but not RW player :P), but I do know that in my gaming area they don't let DA use the TB cover.

[Albion de Heaven]

Smoke

Then it is your turn 1... and the smoke has gone away.

 

Regarding Close Combat... its 4+ cover save... I don't use cover saves in CC :P

 

again... where in the rulebook is it written? the rulebook says After the enemy shooting phase the smoke disperses

 

if i scout and than i make my first turn, when does the "enemy shooting phase" happens dispersing my smoke?

 

 

About the CC i know that it's a cover save so it will not work in cc, but will work outside it (so when u charge a vehicle, or wipe your opponent and so on)

 

 

oh, i forget "catenaccio": with just one T :P:p:p

[Tanhausen]

I'm at work, so I don't have BRB with me: can't tell you where.

 

Hopefully some Brother will come along and ilustrate us.

 

However, if you scout and then its your turn 1... the enemy doesn't shoot you in your phase :P

[thade]

This does bring up an interesting question though...if a Dread moves, pops smoke, then charges into an assault...I believe it still has Smoke for the following shooting phase. This would be valuable if the Dread if it wiped whatever unit it charged on the first turn, or if it had charged a vehicle/bunker. In this case, it seems that the Assault move does count for "finishing it's move".

 

EDIT: I don't see why it wouldn't involve the consolidate move too. Thematically it makes sense...you charge into combat and launch smoke, obscurring you and thematically (though not RAW/literally) you and the troops you are pounding on.

[Seahawk]

if a Dread moves, pops smoke, then charges into an assault...I believe it still has Smoke for the following shooting phase. This would be valuable if the Dread if it wiped whatever unit it charged on the first turn, or if it had charged a vehicle/bunker. In this case, it seems that the Assault move does count for "finishing it's move".

You can quite easily do that, as I have on many occasions. However, the Assault "move" doesn't matter, as you've already fired the smoke launchers after your Movement Phase move.

 

"[...] once per game, after completing its

Well, if you're going to argue the point, you must recognize all aspects. In this case, Scout moves are made before the game begins, ie: not during the game. Thus, you cannot launch smoke pre-game because that action must be done during the game. Easy!

[Albion de Heaven]

that's all?

 

I just have the impression that most of the ppl answering the thread didn't read carefully (or didn't read at all) the initial topic and just answered what they do instead the replaying the real question :P

[greatcrusade08]

Scout move doesnt allow for any other actions like popping smoke.. it clearly shows what is allowed, if its not listed you cant do it..

 

simples

[Tanhausen]

greatcrusade dixit :o

 

And Tanhausen agreed!

[Acebaur]

As was said, you can't pop smoke after scout movement, as it's not a "Movement Phase".

 

A "Move" is done in the movement phase only with regards to smoke. All other movement in other phases is just that, in another phase.

 

 

A Dread that popped smoke in his movement phase and then charged and wiped out a unit would still be smoked for the next enemy shooting phase because it's only after that does the smoke dissapate.

[stormsson]

Pg 76 Scouts

 

"...any scouts may make a normal move. This is done exactly as in their Movement phase, except that during this move, scouts must remain more than 12" away from any enemy..."

 

The word "exactly" is the important one here, and it does list an exception, which doesn't include not popping smokes.

 

As for if you have 1st turn(or steal initiative) it does state in your enemies next shooting phase. Dirty tactic? Definately. Do we allow it in our games? Certainly not.

 

But it is a perfectly legal tactic.

 

Stormsson

[Acebaur]

"exactly as in" does not make it a movement phase. It is before 1st turn so no you canno't pop smoke. "Exactly as in" describes how you can move with the one noted exception.

[SeattleDV8]

As was said, you can't pop smoke after scout movement, as it's not a "Movement Phase".

 

A "Move" is done in the movement phase only with regards to smoke. All other movement in other phases is just that, in another phase.

Except of course there is no rule stating that the 'move' has to be in the Movement Phase.

Smoke Launchers rules never mention a phase. In can be implied as generally vehicles can only 'move' in the Movement Phase but,

turn to pg 72 and you will find that Walkers may pop smoke after running, in the Shooting phase.

This disproves that they can only be used in the Movement Phase.

[greatcrusade08]

This would all be well and good, but the scout move happens before the game begins (turn one).. it isnt a case of classifying it as a movement phase.

 

the scout move is a special rule that allows you to make a movement before the game starts (which is where the wording exactly comes in, it is used to donate the distance you may move and limitations etc).

As the scout move is a special rule it must state what can be done... popping smoke isnt listed, neither are things like go to ground or shoot your weapons or assault...

 

Its a big stretch to argue this and even if you can form an argument that does make sense theres fat chance of being able to convince people opposite you on the games table.

[SeattleDV8]

If one was playing against a Witch Hunters force using an Auspex (WH:C pg.20) allowing a 'free' shot at a unit of infiltrators pre-battle are you suggesting that they would be unable to 'Go to Ground'?

Would you also suggest that if the infiltrators took 25%+ causalties that the unit would not check for Panic?

 

 

You seem to be adding rules that are not there.

BRB pg. 76 ".....,any scouts make a normal move."

A normal move would disallow shooting, assaulting etc. , but smoke is availiable after a move.

Furthermore one can use the USR turbo-boosting in a scout move in that it is part of a normal move.

 

The only rescriction on this move (beond the normal rules of moving) is that the scout must remain more than 12" away from any enemy.

And where in the Smoke Launcher rules are any phases mentioned?

You still cannot prove that it only happens in the movement phase.

[Grey Mage]

No, I think its fairly obvious that they can pop smoke at the end of their scout move.

 

However, I think the contentious part would be wether or not they can fire during the first turn. It says "that turn" however, smoke launchers used during the scout move dont take place in any given turn.

 

I would argue that since it takes place outside the normal course of events the restriction should be applied to the first turn, but I realize thats my interpretation on the matter of "fairness".

[Seahawk]

It's actually quite obvious that they cannot use smoke launchers in scout moves.

 

Smoke Launchers: "Once per game..."

 

pg 92-93: "Deploy any Infltrators and make any scout moves. Start the game!"

 

It's exceedingly clear that smoke launchers can only be used during a game. Since the game has not yet started when you Scout, you cannot use the launchers. Whether or not a Scout move counts as a move or not has no true bearing on the issue.

 

 

I suppose, alternatively, that "Once per game" can be interpreted as an outside action, totally unrelated to the game, that can only happen once. For instance, "Once per game, you roll for deployment and mission." Because you are going to play a game, just once you are allowed to roll for these things. Eh? :)

[greatcrusade08]

It's actually quite obvious that they cannot use smoke launchers in scout moves.

 

Smoke Launchers: "Once per game..."

 

pg 92-93: "Deploy any Infltrators and make any scout moves. Start the game!"

 

It's exceedingly clear that smoke launchers can only be used during a game. Since the game has not yet started when you Scout, you cannot use the launchers. Whether or not a Scout move counts as a move or not has no true bearing on the issue.

 

this was what i tried to argue, but this is far more eloquent than my attempt..

 

A wouldnt agree that once per game also includes things like deployment etc.. it clearly says "start the game" above so anything that happens before then wouldnt be considered part of the game

[Grey Mage]

Yet we have things like Corbulos ability that seem to imply otherwise.

[SeattleDV8]

It's exceedingly clear that smoke launchers can only be used during a game. Since the game has not yet started when you Scout, you cannot use the launchers. Whether or not a Scout move counts as a move or not has no true bearing on the issue.

 

 

I suppose, alternatively, that "Once per game" can be interpreted as an outside action, totally unrelated to the game, that can only happen once. For instance, "Once per game, you roll for deployment and mission." Because you are going to play a game, just once you are allowed to roll for these things. Eh? :D

Then in my example above ( Auspex shooting at infiltrators 'pre-battle') you couldn't cause a Panic check then?

BRB pg. 44 " A unit losing 25% or more of its models during a single phase"

Strictly speaking this happens during Depolyment and not in any game phase.

 

I feel that just because a special rule or wargear allows you to do something outside of the normal timing doesn't mean we leave all of the rules pertaining to the action, good and bad, behind.

Just as I would say Depolyment 'counts as' a game phase or the pre-battle part of the game.

[greatcrusade08]

Just as I would say Depolyment 'counts as' a game phase or the pre-battle part of the game.

 

its an easily solved argument... simply show where it says this in the rulebook