What is a "move"?

[Seahawk]

Even Corbulo's is meant as I explain it. Seize the initiative happens during the game, as it has started and then you roll for seizure (seems like a bad thing? though if I could ignore a seizure merely with a dice roll I'm in! :tu:). It's during the game because it says Start the Game, and then you'd normally start the first turn...or seize it away. Hence, even Corbulo is stuck to "during the game."

 

For auspexes, they say "and may cause the infiltrators to fall back" without specifying how they would do so. I'd argue that it's very similar to going to ground or getting pinned. When you go to ground, you cannot perform any voluntary actions but you are still subject to what happens to you. That is, you can't shoot but you can flee from failing a morale check.

 

This is the same as trying to tank shock with a scout move (you can on the Spearhead deployment; the closest two opposing models would be is ~17"). You can't, because Scouting allows only normal movement (turboboosting is normal movement too). Tank shock says it's "instead of moving normally."

 

However, say you could via some special rule. You'd force a Morale check on a unit, just the same as an auspex combo would. But you still couldn't launch smokes because it's not allowed by the smoke rules.

[SeattleDV8]

Tank Shock wouldn't work...You have to remain more than 12" from enemy units with the scout move.

Scouting bikes would be the most likely unit to lose 25% of their models in the scout move with Dangerous terrain tests.

If you define the Game as only the actual game turns you still have the problem that this happens outside the normal game turn and as such have no way to deal with it.

The line "Start the Game!" to me is fluff, the rule is what follows '.....starts game Turn 1 with his first player turn."

The pre-battle depolyment ,infiltrate and scout moves are part of the Game but not the game turns.

[Mezkh]

Tank Shock wouldn't work...You have to remain more than 12" from enemy units with the scout move.

Scouting bikes would be the most likely unit to lose 25% of their models in the scout move with Dangerous terrain tests.

If you define the Game as only the actual game turns you still have the problem that this happens outside the normal game turn and as such have no way to deal with it.

The line "Start the Game!" to me is fluff, the rule is what follows '.....starts game Turn 1 with his first player turn."

The pre-battle depolyment ,infiltrate and scout moves are part of the Game but not the game turns.

 

Scouting is pre-game movement. You can't use a power that may be used during the game, pre-game. It's that simple, and helpfully the way the rules are written here also prohibits the silly scenario that was created by the thread creator where you scout, smoke, have a turn of acting normally, and then get the benefits of smoke bottom of turn 1.

 

And yeah, Corbulo's power is also 'once during the game', and is consistent, you can seize as per Seahawk's explanation, but Corbulo can't be used to reroll mission type, deployment type, or any of those pre-game rolls either.

[SeattleDV8]

Yes I agree that the OP did put forth a silly scenario, but no-one has answered my question-

What happens to a squad that loses 25%+ in the 'pre-battle' section of the game?

If the Depolyment is not part of the game then why do we have rules for it?

[Mezkh]

If a squad loses 25% while scouting, nothing happens. Morale is only taken if you lose 25% during a phase (movement, shooting, assault).

[Agrab]

If a squad loses 25% while scouting, nothing happens. Morale is only taken if you lose 25% during a phase (movement, shooting, assault).

 

so, say i have an auspex with snipers, I can not cause pinning or anything?

 

I would say that move is defined as the actual movement phase, as the rest say 'run' 'assault' 'consolitdate'

 

that said, scout move is still a move as it acts as if it were in the movement phase

[Isiah]

What happens to a squad that loses 25%+ in the 'pre-battle' section of the game?

 

Scouting units would be pretty silly to risk it [a dangerous terrain test that is] but are still subject to its ruling during a Scout move and to any another other terrain-type restriction as it would be in any other move. A Scout move is basically only a pre-Turn 1 move with a stipulated proximity distance to the enemy at the end – no other immunity to any other rule is inferred. Indeed in all other respects we are told Scouting units move:

 

"[...] exactly as in their movement phase".

 

 

 

 

As to smoke launchers – I don't see how they can be used as technically as Scout move is not considered part of the 'game' as is defined in the mission rules on p92/93 of the BRB. And smoke can only be used 'once per game' !!

 

 

Cheers

I

[Marshal Wilhelm]

"[...] once per game, after completing its move, a vehicle with smoke launchers can trigger them (it doesn't matter how fat it moved). [....]. The vehicle may not fire any of its weapons in the same turn as it used its smoke launchers, but will count as obscured in the next enemy shooting phase, receiving a 4+ cover save. [...]"

 

So this is how it works.

Now we all know that for vehicles is quite simple since they only move in movement phase.

Things get more difficoult when you have a scouting vehicle or a walker

if "move" = "movement in movement phase" it's simple

but if "move" = "after the vehicle has moved" it becomes quite tricky

 

Imagine:

BA going first

"scout phase": BA Baal Pradator makes its scout move and uses smoke

"ba turn": Baal predator may move and fire freely

"opponent turn": Ball predator is obscured by smoke

 

Walker:

Move -> smoke = easy

Move -> run/fleet -> smoke = cheesy?

Move -> assault -> smoke (so if i wipe opponent or charge a vehicle i'm obscured) = even more cheesy?

 

I'm already in CC, it's opponent turn, i wind the combact and make a consolidation move (or even a PILE IN MOVE) after the consolidation i pop the smoke, than in my turn i can move, fire/fleet/run, charge and still be obscured in my opponent next shooting phase.

 

"Move" is restricted to the movement phase.

An Assault is not a "move"

Scouting is a "move" ~ it says so in its entry. Anything that needs a "move" to happen, is satisfied by Scouting.

 

If you Scout - Smoke - SEIZE THE INITIATIVE - then you can still fire in your T1 and be protected until the Shooting phase of the Baddies T1.

 

+++

 

Scouting that results in 25% casualties does require a Morale test.

Scouting is a "move" ~ it says so in its entry. Anything that needs a "move" to happen, is satisfied by Scouting.

 

This is all RAW

[Mezkh]

"Move" is restricted to the movement phase.

An Assault is not a "move"

Scouting is a "move" ~ it says so in its entry. Anything that needs a "move" to happen, is satisfied by Scouting.

 

If you Scout - Smoke - SEIZE THE INITIATIVE - then you can still fire in your T1 and be protected until the Shooting phase of the Baddies T1.

 

+++

 

Scouting that results in 25% casualties does require a Morale test.

Scouting is a "move" ~ it says so in its entry. Anything that needs a "move" to happen, is satisfied by Scouting.

 

This is all RAW

 

No. If you're going to use Rules as Written, then refer to the BGB, not memory, and use them as they're actually written :lol:

 

Smoke is used after completing it's move, once per game.

Move requirement is satisfied - Once per game is not satisfied. Therefore Scout move is not permitted to trigger smoke Launchers.

 

A unit losing 25% or more of it's models during a single phase must pass a morale check at the end of that phase, or fall back.

Losing 25% of units models can be satisfied, but this occuring during a phase and taking a test at the end of a phase cannot. Therefore scouting that results in 25% unit casualties does not incur a penalty morale check.

 

This is all RAW ;)

[Mezkh]

If a squad loses 25% while scouting, nothing happens. Morale is only taken if you lose 25% during a phase (movement, shooting, assault).

 

so, say i have an auspex with snipers, I can not cause pinning or anything? You can cause pinning because the BRB states any unit that suffer casualties from Pinning weapons immediately take a Pinning test. Quite different to the rules for Morale tests.

I would say that move is defined as the actual movement phase, as the rest say 'run' 'assault' 'consolitdate'

 

that said, scout move is still a move as it acts as if it were in the movement phase. Quite correct, there seems to be a misinterpretation issue though with various rules that are enabled by movement and other qualifiers, where those other qualifiers are being forgotten or ignored....

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Smoke is used after completing it's move, once per game.

Move requirement is satisfied - Once per game is not satisfied. Therefore Scout move is not permitted to trigger smoke Launchers.

 

A unit losing 25% or more of it's models during a single phase must pass a morale check at the end of that phase, or fall back.

Losing 25% of units models can be satisfied, but this occuring during a phase and taking a test at the end of a phase cannot. Therefore scouting that results in 25% unit casualties does not incur a penalty morale check.

 

This is all RAW ;)

 

Hmmm. *strokes chin* I have been wrong before and I have made a twit of myself before, maybe this is not an exception. D'oh! :)

 

I looked at the Deployment section of the BBB. The "start the game!" line is terrible. Like SDV8 said, it looks like a throw-away line. "Ala-kazaam!" or "Yippee!" seem interchangeable with it :(

 

I had a look in BBB 4th ed. In that one, the start the game is clearer and is separated from the "pre-game" stuff in a much clearer way. Until I can find a sound argument for what constitutes a game, as per RAW, I will go with "start the game!" as being the bell-ringing moment for the game to start. If they'd provided a definition for it, I'd be happier, but this is what we have got. -_-

 

I am not convinced that the game is from T1 onwards, as what are rules for if they are not apart of a game? However, without anything better than the "Ala-kazaam" line, I'll have to grow to love it :D

 

That Scout follows the rules for moving but never says that it is a phase, also seems right by RAW.

 

"Strike twooo.... " Fiddlesticks! :wub: :lol:

[Reglor]

I just looked at the new C:BA FAQ and it has this in it

 

Q: Can a Baal Predator use smoke launchers during its

Scout move?

A: Yes.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I just looked at the new C:BA FAQ and it has this in it

 

Q: Can a Baal Predator use smoke launchers during its

Scout move?

A: Yes.

 

Yippee! *licks Reglor's face* What?! I excited! ^_^

 

Wrong by RAW ~ I hate reading stuff incorrectly and then spouting off how I am right.

 

So what is the game then....? *strokes chin*

 

O GW, provider and opener in various degrees of cans of worms :lol: "Their can-of-worms-factor is over 9000!!!!11!!!!1!!" :P

[Agrab]

I just looked at the new C:BA FAQ and it has this in it

 

Q: Can a Baal Predator use smoke launchers during its

Scout move?

A: Yes.

 

Yippee! *licks Reglor's face* What?! I excited! :lol:

 

Wrong by RAW ~ I hate reading stuff incorrectly and then spouting off how I am right.

 

So what is the game then....? *strokes chin*

 

O GW, provider and opener in various degrees of cans of worms :lol: "Their can-of-worms-factor is over 9000!!!!11!!!!1!!" :lol:

the game is the second you two agree to play and agree on your lists

after that, everything is game

the game is before first turn, all dice rolling (deployment, mission, etc.) is game

[Seahawk]

I think I found it!

 

"A game of Warhammer 40,000 represents the ebb and flow of battle but, in order to turn the chaos into a manageable game, players alternate taking turns moving and fighting with their units. So, one player will move and fight with his forces first, then his opponent will move and fight. Then the process repeats with the first player moving and fighting again, and so on until the end of the game."

 

It defines the game as when players take turns moving and fighting with their units. I think...

 

Deciding what points to play falls under "arranging a game," not "playing the game."

 

Also, as Corbulo's rule is stated that "during the game," and the FAQ disallows rolling for set up, first turn, etc, that backs up my claim.

 

Lastly, the "Start the Game!" is indeed a rule, not a fluff. It's surrounded by all the rules needed to play in a box where the only fluff is italicized. So I'll stick to it where at that point you actually start the game.

[SeattleDV8]

They may or may not have used that for the reason why they ruled it that way.

Could be that Corbulo is not on the table at that point.

I noticed that the new FAQ answers are very terse More one word answers than I have seen in a long time.

Same with the Smoke launcher question, could be the 'move' was more important than when it occured.

"Start the game!" marks the spot where game turn one begins as the actual rules following it state, is this the Beginning of the Game?

You make good points Seahawk and Mezkh, but I feel that the rolls for mission is the start of game. Heh

I doubt we can convince each other but thanks for the good debate.

[Isiah]

Whether you agree with the result of the answer given or not... Oh well. Another debate put to bed by GW :tu:.

 

They should write FAQs more often :P

 

Cheers

I

[Albion de Heaven]

They should write FAQs more often :P

 

 

indeed they should!!

 

even for stupid things so ppl would stop to debate and play more :D

 

I hate when i travel and play with ppl from other regions the play with different interpretations and we have to debate during the game, it is so...so... well you get it :P