DA advancements, Chaplains etc.

[Front-line]

I've been reading a bit through the codices, Index Astartes etc, but I can't really find a solid answer to this. Neither did a search, if this exists as a topic, I apologize.

 

On to the topic at hand. Being very interested in the lore (as well as military history) I'm writing my own little story around the DA army I'm building. What I'm wondering is sort of .. how the various Astartes move through the ranks? That is, the military organization and how a soldier goes from initiate to chapter master, but more importantly, the in-betweens. I really appreciate any input that can shed some light on this and given the forum I post in, I am talking about how the DA do this mostly ;)

 

The Codex Astartes lay down some ground rules for the various companies and the Dark Angels adhere to that with the exception of companies 1 and 2. So, basically, initiates are taken in as scouts and eventually become full battle-brothers in the support companies before moving into the battle companies. At least, that's my perception.

 

Furthermore, good soldiers/leaders become sergeants. In DA, sergeants can then be promoted into the first company (Deathwing), and from there they can become captains of battle companies. Space Marines do not use Lieutenants as a rank, you go from Captain down to the squad leaders - Sergeants. Again, at least this is what I've been able to decipher so far. (Off course, any input that shows otherwise is appreciated, this is simply what I think I know :) )

 

Moving further, it appears that Chaplains are picked because of their abilities to fulfill that role and Chaplains work at company level (with the company master) and as such are really above sergeants in the command chain. Now, do Chaplains also get promoted into the Deathwing? After all, regular Chaplains are not part of the Inner Circle yet. Same question really applies to Librarians as well. Do the Deathwing have their own Chaplains and Librarians (if so, are there 1 of each like in the other companies)?

 

Also, while Deathwing is an apparent "promotion" in terms of becoming part of the renowned first company and part of the Inner Circle, what about the second company - Ravenwing. Are the Astartes there also hand-picked because of their abilities? Can you go 10th company -> 5th company -> Ravenwing -> Deathwing?

 

Don't know if this sounded very weird or not, but it is sometimes confusing to me to try and see the military hierarchy and how you move around in it with regards to the positions that are on a company/chapter level and how those positions may again be promoted (can a Chaplain become Company Master? Will he have to go through Deathwing first?). Books like "Brothers of the Snake" show an Astartes moving up in the ranks from battle-brother to Sergeant and eventually Captain (ok, not explicitly), but Chaplains are also know as great leaders and I'm certain some Chaplains have the aspirations to become Captains or even Chapter Masters.

 

*edit: That's what happens when I don't have the DA book with me at work :) RW are listed as having Librarian/Chaplain and has the standard set-up while DW has no Chaplain. Given their IC role I guess they use the Chapters Interrogator-Chaplains?

[puck]

In some C:SM chapters (the Blood Ravens specifically) there is a somewhat intermediate rank between sergeant and captain known as Force Commander. DA fluff says we're a Codex chapter (at least in terms of organization) with the exception of the first two companies so I would assume we also use this rank. I've always found it a little hard to swallow that one would jump from managing 5-10 soldiers as a sergeant to managing upwards of 100 when you count all the support structure of a whole company. It seems like either A: there would have to be some sort of training to learn the new skills required for captaincy or in my opinion far more likely B: there is an intermediate rank where one learns how to manage multiple squads in a unified force.

[Front-line]

That's actually something I've been considering as well. Granted, in the DA sergeants go through the Deathwing first, but it's still a big leap. Now, as you brought up the Blood Ravens, I remember reading the first omnibus (okay, I realise that taking lore input from that book is like trying to learn Islam by reading Tolkien but still) about one of the librarians (think it was the one who turned and whos name escapes me) being angry that there weren't more Librarians that had been/were chapter masters (or was it captains?) which implies they also have aspirations to get there. I just can't seem to find much literature on how Chaplains and Librarians move through the ranks other than the natural progression of Chaplains in DA which is to become Interrogator-Chaplain. I figure some stay as Chaplain, but certainly some would prove good enough to lead Companies and maybe even the chapter itself.

 

I may have to reread the literature again and harder, but I can't remember these holes being filled in any of my books at least.

[Chaplain Killmer]

I think there are different carreers that are available to the new space marine after finishing his initate period and being introduced into the brotherhood in powerarmor. Those are depending on the skills and talents of the new marine. Its a bit of a mix of DA and vanillas.

 

Tier -1

Initiates very freshly introduced and undergoing first training and starting the process becoming a marine

Psyker screening all but the strongest candidates with psychic abilities will be eliminated to keep the chapter as a whole save - survivors with powers will go the librarians way

 

Tier 0

Scouts nearly finished marines that are about to get first real combat experience

 

Tier 1

Battlebrother in a reserve company every marine enters this rank - full combat training with more or less all weapons and tactics that are used in the whole chapter

 

Tier 2

Special Tactics and Weapons Specialists - brothers will join corresponding squads like assault squads, bikers, tank drivers or recieving more training in special weapons like the flamers, chainsword and so on - this road leads towards the veterans line without command function

Battle Squad Leaders - this line leads to command line like sergeants

Apprentice Techmarine

Apprentice Chaplain

Apprentice Apothecary

 

Tier 3

Battlebrother in a company member in a Tactical, Assault or Devastator squad

Battle Squad Leaders in a battle company

 

Tier 4

Techmarines

Chaplains inner circle

Apothecaries

Ravenwing Members

 

Tier 5

Battle Company Veterans

Sergeants

 

Tier 6

Lieutenants removed in 2nd edition of warhammer 40.000

Campaign/Battle Force Leaders

Scout Sergeant

Deathwing

Librarians inner circle

Company Champions

Company Standard bearers

 

Tier 7

Captains inner circle

Higher ranking Techmarines

Higher ranking Apothecaries

Higher ranking Librarians inner circle

 

Tier 8

Lieutenant Commander removed in 2nd edition of warhammer 40.000

Captain of the 1st Company inner circle

Master Chaplain inner circle

Librarian Magister inner circle

Master Techmarine

 

Tier 9

Commander removed in 2nd edition of warhammer 40.000

Chaptermaster (Grandmaster; Supreme Grandmaster) inner circle

 

 

Maybe something along this line.

[Leonaides]

Dont forget that technically chaplains and Librarians (and techmarines and apothecaries) are outside the command structure. Despite what your army list tells you to do when you can pick a chaplain as an HQ - fluff-wise this is a force being led by a senior sergeant, and the chaplain is "accompanying" the force. Sergeants are command/tactics trained, chaplains are not.

[Isiah]

Dont forget that technically chaplains and Librarians (and techmarines and apothecaries) are outside the command structure. Despite what your army list tells you to do when you can pick a chaplain as an HQ - fluff-wise this is a force being led by a senior sergeant, and the chaplain is "accompanying" the force. Sergeants are command/tactics trained, chaplains are not.

 

I'm not sure about this. Chaplains and Interrogator-Chaplains are indeed part of the command chain even if running parallel to it rather than directly inline. And don't forget Chaplains and Librarians at this level are command/tactics trained – their 'other' duties are merely bolted on to their primary (fighting) function.

 

I've always considered Interrogator–Chaplains to be the equivalent to a Company Master given the responsibility of command (numbers) at both their disposal and their elevated status as part of the Inner Circle. Normal Chaplains are of only marginally lesser rank by dint of not being in the Inner Circle, but certainly well above the senior/veteran sergeant level as they are well capable of and expected to lead sizeable forces in the field.

 

Cheers

I

[mysideofthemirror]

Looking at my codex the other day I saw a bit on how a battle brother might expect to advance through the ranks.

 

It looks like a Battle Brother would go from being a grunt, to a company veteran (presumably where he'd undergo a lot of scrutiny), to a veteran sarg, then to deathwing, deathwing sarg, and then to company master.

 

As for chaplains and librarians, I tend to think they'd hold rank over anything short of a company master, and even company master would listen to their advice. A high ranking librarian or Int. Chaplain could probably make 'suggestions' to a company master that they'd want to follow.

 

As for techmarines, fluff is they can never be members of the inner circle. Apothecaries we know can be.

[Cypher 102]

The Master of the Forge is the one Techmarine that is allowed in the Deathwing. Someone has to maintain the equipment in the interrogation chambers. I'm sure he's allowed to train his successor as well.

 

The Blood Ravens are an exception to usual codex chapters in having Librarians as their Chapter Master. Not very many chapters are willing to trust leadership of the whole chapter to someone who could potentially be possessed by a power of chaos.

 

I'm pretty sure that once they are done with their training or apprenticeship Dark Angel Librarians are inducted into the Deathwing in order to help with interrogations and keep track of the dungeons.

 

Once they become a Chaplain a marine will tend to stay a Chaplain. Although I'm sure there is some precedent for a chaplain becoming a company master or chapter master in a few codex chapters. The way I see it upon promotion to the rank of Chaplain the marine is assigned to a company and the spiritual well-being of that company becomes his primary responsibility. Upon promotion to Interrogator-Chaplain they are separated from a company the hunt for the fallen becomes their primary responsibility.

 

To be honest once a marine is assigned to one of the specialty branches (chaplain, librarian, techmarine, apothecary) that marine will never leave that career path. The only position for them to advance to is as head of their career within the chapter.

[Dark Dajin]

Like the Grand Master of Chaplains? I'd say he would be of equal rank as a Grand Master of a chapter. With the Supreme Grand Master being the master of the Inner Circle, and thus his political power would be approaching that of a Primarch, leading/steering several chapters...which would make the DA break imperial rules? :lol:

[Syphid]

There are Apothecaries in the Inner Circle?

[Chaplain Killmer]

Not sure about the Inner Circle but in Deathwing for sure.

[Front-line]

Thanks a lot for the replies guys, really appreciated!

 

Looking at my codex the other day I saw a bit on how a battle brother might expect to advance through the ranks.

 

It looks like a Battle Brother would go from being a grunt, to a company veteran (presumably where he'd undergo a lot of scrutiny), to a veteran sarg, then to deathwing, deathwing sarg, and then to company master.

 

As for chaplains and librarians, I tend to think they'd hold rank over anything short of a company master, and even company master would listen to their advice. A high ranking librarian or Int. Chaplain could probably make 'suggestions' to a company master that they'd want to follow.

 

As for techmarines, fluff is they can never be members of the inner circle. Apothecaries we know can be.

 

This is very similar to what I´m thinking as well.

 

I see a lot of confirmations on what I thought, and I also tend to think that once you´re a Chaplain you´ll most likely stay that way (though I´m sure that some Chaplains are qualified to become Company/Chapter masters). Like the fluff also states, some sergeants are too good to go higher, certainly a great Chaplain is a fantastic asset to a company. I do, however, see it was mentioned, that the Chaplains are above sergeants in the command chain, though they tend to leave the tactical movements of the squad they´re assigned to to the sergeants (some references I think show this are the Iron Snakes book and actually the Fallen Angels from HH, though technically he wasn´t a Chaplain on the lines of what they are "today"), but I also seem to have in the back of my mind some Chaplains commanding two or three squads in a book somewhere - basically functioning as a Lieutenant on the battlefield - though I can´t remember where I have that from, it could even be totally wrong, but that´s something I certainly see Chaplains do..

 

I should´ve thought of the Librarians which are, off course, the exception in all cases (with the exception of Thousand.. ooops, Blood Ravens :D ).

[puck]

This topic has been explored a good bit, but I just wanted to point out another facet. All the specialty branches are in some way shape or form zealots. Chaplains are religious zealots (they have to be to counsel guys that fight what SM's fight; can someone say PTSD). Apothecaries are zealots in that they're solely concerned with the preservation of their brother marines to the point that they will take bullets for wounded men and would be too cautious to make a good leader. There is an example in the Iron Snakes book of an apothecary who is more than healthily upset at the lose of some of the members of his squad. Tech-marines are like a Catholic at a Botmitsvah (zealots for the wrong side), They're compromised out of leadership positions because they can not be relied upon to do what best for the chapter at all times. I can just see a tech-marine sergeant leading a squad into a Necron tomb for archeotech and waking everything up. And lastly, Librarians are way too concerned with not being possessed or melted or eaten from the inside out by something which is the definition of terrifying to effectively lead a group of any size. I've always thought that marines are put into these specialist roles based partly on their skill sets but also on a certain lack of ambition which would allow them to focus solely on their specialized tasks and be completely content wherever they're assigned.

 

food for thought.

[Malus the Destroyer]

I can't find it now, but somewhere in the "Chapter Approved" archives is the progression of Chaplaincy. Starting with a Brother having to have earned to awards that are adorned on his right shoulderpad somewhere. After this, he is screened and moved into Chaplaincy, mostly assisting in rituals of older Chaplains, and studying the Chapter cult and rites. After so much time, and/or death of a Chaplain, he takes up the right arm armor, Skull helmet, Crozius Arcanum, and immediatly assumes the fallen Chaplains name and rank upon the battlefield.