Holed Down

[Raye]

Hey guys,

 

Hope I'm in the right forum here!

 

I've recently took up playing Space Marines (Vanilla Dex with Khan Captain - counting as pre-heresy Night Lords) and I mostly play against the same few people. One of the guys I play a lot pretty much always plays the same way, and I wondered if anyone could think of a way to beat this.

 

He keeps his marines in a firing line in cover, and those that aren't in cover are all mechanized. We're talking two Razorbacks and a Land Raider, sometimes additional Preds as firebases at the extremity of their range.

 

The problem is, he won't advance, unless he knows he can push up and kill all my guys. So I have two choices, I can do what he does, stay in cover with MY marines and we can play Summer Bolter Camp 2010, or I can advance (my lists quite mechanized too, Rhinos and Razorbacks) and get mullered by all the shooting. ;)

 

The only way I've managed to throw it into my favour in the past has been to get a lucky outflank, with everything coming on where I want it, however, Outflank's pretty unpredictable, and I often end up stretching my army too far for them to be effective.

 

Any suggestions would be great!

 

Thanks

 

R

[Jackelope King]

If he's playing a gunline, he's already crippling himself. Marines don't make good gunline armies in 5th. 5th Edition is all about mobility and forcing your opponent to react to your threats, not reacting to your opponents' threats.

 

Use your long-ranged fire to knock out his few mechanized elements, then you control the pace of the game. And pick and choose your engagements: send your whole army against a single part of his line. One squad of Marines can't beat an entire army of Marines.

[Raye]

[

If he's playing a gunline, he's already crippling himself. Marines don't make good gunline armies in 5th. 5th Edition is all about mobility and forcing your opponent to react to your threats, not reacting to your opponents' threats.

 

See, I think that mobility is key, but it doesn't seem to affect him too badly to be honest. He wins almost every game he plays.

 

send your whole army against a single part of his line.

 

That's probably the way to do it. Even if I have to glasshammer my way through with Vguard Vets. It's just frustrating to fight Predators in cover.

[Corby]

Drop Pod assault? (essentially loads of marines with melta/plasma+ dreadnoughts landing ontop of him on turn1 with the second wave arriviing later) Your list however seems highly mobile so you should be able to dictate where you engage him. How many points do you play at? Is his list the same or does it change? Are you able to tell us about his list or does he prefer it kept private? Information like this can help us analise a solution to the problem.

[Tanhausen]

It would help to know a bit more about your list... and if you play 180x120 tables, how much scenary you usually have...

 

Also, can you make significant changes to your list or are there some restrictions? Can you proxy, and so on?

 

I assume that the LR, Predator and Razors have Lasscannons?

 

However, I'd say speed is your friend: scouts in LS, LS with MM or Typhoon, scouting Attack Bikes, Podding Dreadnoughts or combimeltas termies/veterans...

 

There are many ways to tackle a static list, even if it spams lasscannons and it entrenches itself.

 

Hordes could also do nicely (but this a powerarmour arena :P ).

 

What you DON'T want to do is taking a low model count army and play into his plan: he's gonna blow your transports away and simply pound on your footslogging troops.

 

Also, remember that 2/3 missions require objective capturing... how does he go out and capture?

[Raye]

It would help to know a bit more about your list... and if you play 180x120 tables, how much scenary you usually have...

 

Usually we play a 6ft x 4ft table with at least two ruins (4+ cover save) and some trees and craters (5+). We usually play 1500points approx, sometimes a little smaller.

Also, can you make significant changes to your list or are there some restrictions? Can you proxy, and so on?

I can make some significant changes, at the moment I'm using a lot of proxy as I don't have all my own models yet, but usually I run something like this:

 

Hq

 

Khan

Chaplain w/jump pack

 

Elites

 

5 CC Termies with Lightning Claws (to be joined by Khan) in a Land Raider

 

Troops

 

2 x Tac Squads (10) with Pfist Sergeant and Meltagun in Rhino/Razorback (depending on points)

 

Fast Attack

 

1 x 10 man assault squad with 2 x flamers and Pfist

 

Heavies

 

Predator with twin linked lascannons and heavy bolter sponsons (i think that's what they have... :P)

 

There might have been more but I can't remember for the life of me!

 

However, I'd say speed is your friend: scouts in LS, LS with MM or Typhoon, scouting Attack Bikes, Podding Dreadnoughts or combimeltas termies/veterans...

 

There are many ways to tackle a static list, even if it spams lasscannons and it entrenches itself.

 

A lot of people recommend drop podding Dreads, I just can't figure out how to equip them. I had a Venerable Dread in one game with a Plasma Cannon and he didn't do well AT ALL. Reckon Rifleman could do it?

 

What you DON'T want to do is taking a low model count army and play into his plan: he's gonna blow your transports away and simply pound on your footslogging troops.

 

Also, remember that 2/3 missions require objective capturing... how does he go out and capture?

 

I have made that mistake LOTS of times. I used to outflank everything possible as well, which more often than not just results in a tactical mess.

 

For capturing things, he'll spend three or four turns grinding you down with lots of fire, then use the really mobile transports like the razorbacks and rhinos he's got to pop out from the cover and charge the objectives for a last turn capture.

[Hellios]

Apart from being really expensive... a terminator unit (LC/TH) in a Land Raider Redeemer... Outflank... burn a unit in cover and charge another... The crusader would be othe other option because it has frag launchers... and redeemers don't right? I can't remember...

 

As has been mentioned another option is to have enough fire power to destroy his mechanised units and his long range fire base and then make him play your game... Also will he hide in objective missions? Because if you can make it so most of the objectives are on your side and are able to lurk in cover... you should be able to grab them and force him to attack you if he wants a draw.

 

Or as other people have said you need to be up in his face... with his gunline (assume the deployment where you get half the board and a 12 inch deployment zone) will he line up across the entire board or just bunch up in a small area? If he lines up across the whole length of the table then make sure your army is fast (meched up) and deploy all your army down one side and rush that part of his army. This way he should only be able to use some of his power, by the time he has sorted himself out a significantly greater proportion of his army should be dead compared to yours and this should help you as you run down his deployment zone and gut him.

[Raye]

Apart from being really expensive... a terminator unit (LC/TH) in a Land Raider Redeemer... Outflank... burn a unit in cover and charge another... The crusader would be othe other option because it has frag launchers... and redeemers don't right? I can't remember...

 

I have used this before, and it is amazing. Especially if the terminators lose no men and then reembark. The only problem with outflank is not knowing which side of the board they're going to arrive on.

 

Or as other people have said you need to be up in his face... with his gunline (assume the deployment where you get half the board and a 12 inch deployment zone) will he line up across the entire board or just bunch up in a small area? If he lines up across the whole length of the table then make sure your army is fast (meched up) and deploy all your army down one side and rush that part of his army. This way he should only be able to use some of his power, by the time he has sorted himself out a significantly greater proportion of his army should be dead compared to yours and this should help you as you run down his deployment zone and gut him.

 

He usually sticks to the heaviest areas of cover, using the Predators as 'walls' to extend the cover and hide his Rhinos. I think what you guys suggested is best and trying to overload a flank. If I could get a homer down and bring the assault squad down and the terminators at the same time, I could probably punch a nice hole in his lines.

 

Other than that we're just going to play The Dividing Line. Split the table in half and hopefully have half the problem! ;)

[Tanhausen]

Quick thoughts...

 

1.- You have no Anti-tank. And no, 1 single and lonely lasscannon predator and 2 troops in a rhino with meltaguns is not enough. Sorry :lol: Just to give an idea... assume you destroy 1 vehicle every 3 shots... how many turns would you need destroy his LR + 2 rhinos + 2 razorbacks + 1 predator? And 1/3 is being generous!

 

2.- Those assault marines... I understand that you simply throw them at whaever they can reach and more often than not, he moves forward some rhino or maybe even the LR and you get assaulted and wasted in 2 turns, right?

 

I'd say your list (and your gameplan) is not using the best tools for the best roles. But is just MHO.

 

Proposal:

 

- Change the Predator w/ lass + bolters to 2 x Predator w/autocannon w/lass sponsons. S7 is usually enough to pop transports, and it still helps the S9 when shooting tanks and walkers (even if you need a 5+ or 6+).

- Podding: its a simple AoBR dreadnough... multimelta and DCCW, if possible with Heavy flamer. I'd say that 2 dreads and 1 of assault marines with meltaguns

 

Its a big change in your game plan:

 

Turn 1, you pod 2 dreads or 1 dread/1 assault and shoot melta as if there is no tomorrow... and engage ASAP... S10 DCCW assaulting is bound to give nice results! Remember the pods have a Storm bolter, so that 2 more S4 shots at another unit if you want... not much, but sometimes its nice ;)

 

You rhinos (with 5 marines), obscured and hidden... now its your turn to play hide and seek ;)

 

Predators in cover and covering the probable lanes you will have to use when rushing for objectives in turn 4, to keep them clear.

 

I'm not that fond of 1 LR... will draw a big amount of shots... but best is to try!

 

One thing is for sure: you'll surprise your friend!

 

Hope it helps

[ImperialReaper]

I dont see the problem.

 

Cover is more or less useless for Space Marines except vehicles due to the fact that your armorsave is in 95% better than the cover save. So there is hardly any advantage for him while hiding behind cover and there is hardly any drawback for you charging him. I can but understand this - I palyed vanilla marines before and most of the time was beter of not moving since i was able to fire all of my weapons at range this way.

 

But as a space marine you have jumptroops, transports, shocktroops, droppods and so on. This should be all you need to get into "holed down" enemys. Especially since you have granades on neraly all of your troops which allow yout to maintain your initiative when assaulting targets in cover.

 

The easiest option would but be to field as much vindicators as possible and play demolisher barrage summer camp 2010 - since it beats bolters and ofers no cover save in 50%.

[Corby]

I dont see the problem.

 

Cover is more or less useless for Space Marines except vehicles due to the fact that your armorsave is in 95% better than the cover save. So there is hardly any advantage for him while hiding behind cover and there is hardly any drawback for you charging him. I can but understand this - I palyed vanilla marines before and most of the time was beter of not moving since i was able to fire all of my weapons at range this way.

 

But as a space marine you have jumptroops, transports, shocktroops, droppods and so on. This should be all you need to get into "holed down" enemys. Especially since you have granades on neraly all of your troops which allow yout to maintain your initiative when assaulting targets in cover.

 

The easiest option would but be to field as much vindicators as possible and play demolisher barrage summer camp 2010 - since it beats bolters and ofers no cover save in 50%.

 

How is cover useless for marines? with every single player plus their mother fielding hordes of Ap1 and Ap2 weapons (THINK DEMOLISHERS CANNONS!) that 4+ cover save is invalualbe. Otherwise its a handful of dead marines. Saying cover is useless for marines is very far from the truth.

[Raye]

Tanhausen

Proposal:

 

- Change the Predator w/ lass + bolters to 2 x Predator w/autocannon w/lass sponsons. S7 is usually enough to pop transports, and it still helps the S9 when shooting tanks and walkers (even if you need a 5+ or 6+).

- Podding: its a simple AoBR dreadnough... multimelta and DCCW, if possible with Heavy flamer. I'd say that 2 dreads and 1 of assault marines with meltaguns

 

Its a big change in your game plan:

 

Turn 1, you pod 2 dreads or 1 dread/1 assault and shoot melta as if there is no tomorrow... and engage ASAP... S10 DCCW assaulting is bound to give nice results! Remember the pods have a Storm bolter, so that 2 more S4 shots at another unit if you want... not much, but sometimes its nice

 

You rhinos (with 5 marines), obscured and hidden... now its your turn to play hide and seek

 

I know my anti-tank is lacking quite a lot. I'm not sure what to try, Devastators irk me by having to stand at the back, and being about the same cost as a Pred.

 

To be honest I think you're right! That list sounds pretty awesome to me. The good thing is, most of the models I am using in the list I posted up there are proxies, because I'm still figuring out what works. So changing the army at this stage really isn't a problem. I love the sound the dreadnoughts dropping in and blowing chunks out of the line while the rhinos hide at the back having a nice cup of space tea before charging in.

 

Thanks for taking the time to post :)

[Zynk Kaladin]

I'd consider getting some typhoons. Put one or two in each corner of your line and hit you enemy's side armor with those krak grenades. Try to knock out his transports so he can't get to the objectives.

[Trozen]

Instead of MM dreads, I would suggest Ironclads. You lose out on the range of the multi-melta for a meltagun, but the armor makes it much more survivable (especially in melee). I know melta can get them, but if you drop them together usually overwhelm your target and provide whatever is moving up some added protection. They rarely disappoint me and are flexible if you replace the stormbolter with a heavy flamer.

[Koremu]

Predators are stationary in order to fire effectively. Throw a Land Speeder Storm and Scouts at them. 4 Krak 'nades and a PFist = no more Predator.

[Tanhausen]

I know my anti-tank is lacking quite a lot. I'm not sure what to try, Devastators irk me by having to stand at the back, and being about the same cost as a Pred.

 

To be honest I think you're right! That list sounds pretty awesome to me. The good thing is, most of the models I am using in the list I posted up there are proxies, because I'm still figuring out what works. So changing the army at this stage really isn't a problem. I love the sound the dreadnoughts dropping in and blowing chunks out of the line while the rhinos hide at the back having a nice cup of space tea before charging in.

 

Thanks for taking the time to post ;)

 

Not at all... had a slow day at work today :P

 

Most important thing though is having a few games: no matter how "good" a list is, you have to get used to it, get the flow and basically know it to the extent you can more or less "autoplay" it and get to know its weaknesses (strengths come out quite easily :P)

 

No unit is THE unit... since no situation (shooting, combat or movement) is an isolated event... it impacts in all of the game (the earlier the decision in the game, the more it sets the course). Even big nasty units have their nemesis... fortunately!

 

That said, assume that the multimeltas are not going to hit 100% of the times (in my case, they hit 0% of the times xD) and that your enemy is still going to play a nasty style (sorry, but camping and rushing for turn 4 objectives is NOT my concept of impressive gaming.... effective? yes. Efficient? yes. Fun? ... no comment :P).

 

The rest of the Brothers share good experiences (which ALWAYS top theories) and each of us goes a different way. I tried to advice in a list similar to yours, not changing EVERYTHING... because I think that you play that list for a reason ;) What is it that you like most of your list? Me? Deathwing terminators... regardless of how competitive they turn out ;)

 

Enjoy your opponents face when you take him the new list... and post here a pic of it! haha

[ImperialReaper]

I dont see the problem.

 

Cover is more or less useless for Space Marines except vehicles due to the fact that your armorsave is in 95% better than the cover save. So there is hardly any advantage for him while hiding behind cover and there is hardly any drawback for you charging him. I can but understand this - I palyed vanilla marines before and most of the time was beter of not moving since i was able to fire all of my weapons at range this way.

 

But as a space marine you have jumptroops, transports, shocktroops, droppods and so on. This should be all you need to get into "holed down" enemys. Especially since you have granades on neraly all of your troops which allow yout to maintain your initiative when assaulting targets in cover.

 

The easiest option would but be to field as much vindicators as possible and play demolisher barrage summer camp 2010 - since it beats bolters and ofers no cover save in 50%.

 

How is cover useless for marines? with every single player plus their mother fielding hordes of Ap1 and Ap2 weapons (THINK DEMOLISHERS CANNONS!) that 4+ cover save is invalualbe. Otherwise its a handful of dead marines. Saying cover is useless for marines is very far from the truth.

 

You are right it ist important for lascannons and plasmacannons. But if the demolisher hits you wont get a cover save as long as the center of the template is on the same sinde of the cover as your troops (or does this just count for orbital bombardements? )

[Raye]

Not at all... had a slow day at work today :P

Ha, me too!

 

That said, assume that the multimeltas are not going to hit 100% of the times (in my case, they hit 0% of the times xD)

 

This happens to me with boltguns funnily enough. My meltaguns have a 100% effectiveness rating. Bolters, you would not believe the amount of misses I can achieve when hitting on a three.

 

and that your enemy is still going to play a nasty style (sorry, but camping and rushing for turn 4 objectives is NOT my concept of impressive gaming.... effective? yes. Efficient? yes. Fun? ... no comment :P).

 

^_^ out of loyalty to my friend, I'll say nothing. But :yuck:

 

The rest of the Brothers share good experiences (which ALWAYS top theories) and each of us goes a different way. I tried to advice in a list similar to yours, not changing EVERYTHING... because I think that you play that list for a reason ;) What is it that you like most of your list? Me? Deathwing terminators... regardless of how competitive they turn out ;)

 

Enjoy your opponents face when you take him the new list... and post here a pic of it! haha

 

I think the thing that I like most about my current list is CC Termies with Lightning Claws and Khan in an outflanking Land Raider. There is nothing I like more than when that works properly!

 

I'm considering taking a few pictures to be honest, wouldn't mind doing a batrep on some of our games. Plus, I think we might play tonight, and if we do, I'll let you guys know how it goes!

[Tanhausen]

I think the thing that I like most about my current list is CC Termies with Lightning Claws and Khan in an outflanking Land Raider. There is nothing I like more than when that works properly!

 

I'm considering taking a few pictures to be honest, wouldn't mind doing a batrep on some of our games. Plus, I think we might play tonight, and if we do, I'll let you guys know how it goes!

 

Outflanking is quite appealing...but its a shame you can't prepare in advance your strategy since you have no control about timing. The only solution I find is numbers: you might not be able to predict when 1 unit will come out, but if you carry 2 or 3... in that sense I'm quite envious of IG or bugs and their bonus/malus for reserves.

 

Also, I don't remember reading your terminator's configuration... and since I play DA, I'm not that familiar with special characters without the book xD But if you are running a 5 x claws squad, I know that you can't mix assault/shoot termies (yes, DA can :yuck:) but maybe you can try some wound allocation improvement, specially since your storm shields are a neat 3++! And remember the stun effect of thunder hammers ^_^

 

If you do play tonight and take some pics, I'd find really interesting his/her deployment.

 

Enjoy!

[Raye]

Also, I don't remember reading your terminator's configuration... and since I play DA, I'm not that familiar with special characters without the book xD But if you are running a 5 x claws squad, I know that you can't mix assault/shoot termies (yes, DA can B)) but maybe you can try some wound allocation improvement, specially since your storm shields are a neat 3++! And remember the stun effect of thunder hammers :)

 

I usually run 5 x Lightning Claw Termies with Khan, but I've been considering giving two of them TH/SS as it would be good for the saves and stops all my squad having the same weapons for the purposes of wound allocation!

 

I wish I could mix assault and shooty termies! I think that would be way overkill in the SM dex though.

[Tanhausen]

I wish I could mix assault and shooty termies! I think that would be way overkill in the SM dex though.

 

*** mumbling lowly ***

 

Some day, some day we'll get a C:DA reviewed... AND THEN!!!!!!

 

*** putting a straight face again ***

 

That's because someone thought all chapters ought to have TDA... but only one Legion has true terminators :P

[Sparhawk]

I dont see the problem.

 

Cover is more or less useless for Space Marines except vehicles due to the fact that your armorsave is in 95% better than the cover save. So there is hardly any advantage for him while hiding behind cover and there is hardly any drawback for you charging him. I can but understand this - I palyed vanilla marines before and most of the time was beter of not moving since i was able to fire all of my weapons at range this way.

 

But as a space marine you have jumptroops, transports, shocktroops, droppods and so on. This should be all you need to get into "holed down" enemys. Especially since you have granades on neraly all of your troops which allow yout to maintain your initiative when assaulting targets in cover.

 

The easiest option would but be to field as much vindicators as possible and play demolisher barrage summer camp 2010 - since it beats bolters and ofers no cover save in 50%.

 

How is cover useless for marines? with every single player plus their mother fielding hordes of Ap1 and Ap2 weapons (THINK DEMOLISHERS CANNONS!) that 4+ cover save is invalualbe. Otherwise its a handful of dead marines. Saying cover is useless for marines is very far from the truth.

 

You are right it ist important for lascannons and plasmacannons. But if the demolisher hits you wont get a cover save as long as the center of the template is on the same sinde of the cover as your troops (or does this just count for orbital bombardements? )

 

That only applies to weapons with the Barrage special rule (like orbital bombardment or the Whirlwind Missles.)

[Koremu]

You are right it ist important for lascannons and plasmacannons. But if the demolisher hits you wont get a cover save as long as the center of the template is on the same sinde of the cover as your troops (or does this just count for orbital bombardements? )

 

That only applies to weapons with the Barrage special rule (like orbital bombardment or the Whirlwind Missles.)

and is completely useless against area terrain, which is like 99% of all 40k terrain

[Tanhausen]

How did it go? Any improvements?

[Giga]

Against gunlines, I prefer to charge into a single part of their line and focus-fire to slaughter as much of it as possible.

 

Preferably, get first turn, and move forward. Get ultra-fast anti-tank stuff such as mm/hf speeders and mm attack bikes and turbo-boost them forward (if you can keep them behind LoS-blocking terrain, do it). Accompany all if it with a land raider full of hammernators (these really do a good job of slaughtering marines) and a bunch of forward-acting tactical squads (with lots of flamers and combiflamers, for some rapid-fire goodness), and go in. Remember to pop smoke and utilize cover. If you get first turn, you should reach his lines by turn 2 and get into assault/melta range. If you get second turn hole up to get cover saves and then move in (and try to steal the initiative).

 

Good ways to keep your army safe is to add a vindicator or two. These tanks will draw most of his anti-tank fire, and with AV13 and smoke launchers they have a good chance to just plain ignore most of his anti-tank shooting on turn 1, and in turn 2 you move them 6" and shoot 24", giving you an effective 30" range on your demolisher cannons.

 

Basically, once you're charging his predators, he's done for. :D