Scoring units - how many?

[DarkGuard]

I'm not sure if this has been discussed in full before, did try a search for it and didn't find much.

 

So here's my question, how many scoring units do you realistically need?

 

Of course the answer would depend on the size of game, so lets assume 1500pts. Furthermore, the type of game is random, so basically how many do you need in an all comers list?

 

I used to be of the belief that you should take one scoring unit for every 500pts of your army, so for 1500pts you should have 3, which I tended to field as 3 full strength Tactical Squads with transports.

 

However, recently I've tried fielding a 1500pts game with only the two scoring units, two full strength Tactical Squads, using the points saved on more killy units such as Sternguard and rifleman Dreads. The whole reasoning behind this comes from Warp Angel's excellent Killhammer series. Basically, to win an objective game you only need one scoring model on one objective and all the others contested. Therefore, for an all comers list it is better to focus on killy units to help generate kill gap and win kill point games than another Troops choice that might not as be as effective.

 

As we all know Space Marine Tactical Squads aren't the best damage dealers, and so in my army that falls to the Sternguard and Vindicators while my Tactical Squads support. Good for kill point missions, but I'm still unsure about objectives. Am I being too risky in only using 20 scoring models? Or is it a gamble that should pay off if used well?

 

I'd like to hear your opinions. :)

[Tanhausen]

As you say, its hard to say "X for Y points".

 

I share your reasoning... so I'll share what I've seen.

 

I usually play 2k and MANY players go for simply 2 scoring units...yes, only 2.

 

The main competitive idea is holding one more objective... and since any unit can contest, most tournament players here play not to win, but to contest your points and hold one.

 

So... if you only want to hold 1 objective, having 2 units gives you PLENTY haha

 

Now, thing is... can you contest the other objective/s?

[Fatuous]

Good question. not easy to answer tho I'm afraid.

 

it will always come down to your play style and your opponent (sorry if that sounds a bit obvious), and how you like to win games, and if you mind the odd draw.

 

Basically, if you only have 2 troop choices (of course theses can combat squad), your opponent is not going to hav ea huge problem killing all of them....... except that you have so many more points to throw in to those killer units, they have to switch fire to deal with them right?

 

Well yes and no. Yes they do need to deal with them, or they will massacre large portions of their list. but this isn't always important in a game. Things will die anyway, so just accepting that your losses will be high in some units and then feed those killer units a squad or vehicle a turn to keep them busy, while you target the reletively low troop counts in your list can and does work (I've done it several times, but it is very easy to get distracted and move fire off those tasty troop choices, I've done that several times too :) ).

 

This tactic is similar to how my army plays, altho I have 2 tac squads and a scout squad at the moment. Everything else is taken up with terminators and dreadnaughts (plus a MOF), and so far it has been doing quite well. People do often go 'Oh s***balls, I have to deal with all this stuff' and ignore my troops to some degree, spending large amounts of fire power killing (or failing to kill) everything else, and assault and regular terminator squad seem to work really well together in a combo of deathdealing. but it is only a matter of time before I get all my troops killed and fed sacrificial units for the terminators and dreadnaughts while they take down all my troops, before getting 1 last guy on an objective late game. It hasn't happened yet, but I'm sure it will.

 

I'm prepared to play for a draw in those cases (and am changing my list a bit for a late game pod'd tac squad to take and hold an objective late game), so if all my troops die, I just ahve to either kill all theirs for a draw, or make sure I have enough things left to contest all the objectives. Oh course this is risky and means that I can not win those games, so I guess it all depends on how u'd feel about having to fight, and maybe fight really hard...... to claw back a draw.

 

Of course if you're happy taking pedro, then you can max out those SG units too for more troops...............

 

So over all. yes I think it is a good and valid tactic (or is this a statergy, I get confused), but it can be countered prety easily byu a level headed opponent that focuses on removing your scoring units, so you may find that while it does well for a few games, it may struggle long term as people learn to ignore some parts and target the troops.

 

that's my take on it anyway, hope it helps.

[amberclad87]

At 1500 I like to field 3-4 scoring units. Although I use the space wolves codex and grey hunters are probably one of the best scoring units in the game. They have a lot of killy power and can still take those important objectives. With C:SM I have found that Kantor with sternguard work well.

[DarkGuard]

I forgot to mention that I like trying to make competitive lists without SCs, so no Pedro then, should have said that earlier. I know he can be good for my list, but only if I can find the points and I'd only use him in tournament play.

 

Some good stuff coming here guys, and I am jealous of your Grey Hunters amberclad.

[mowglie]

Obviously one of the big strengths of the space marine codex is that two full tactical squads = four scoring units if it's important, which leads many SM players to play only two troops choices up to and including 2,500 points.

 

Really it depends on the rest of your army, but as a rule-of-thumb for "standard" builds (i.e. no bike captain, no pedro), at 1,500 I'd want to be playing two full tactical squads plus optionally one 5-man scout squad. (I play them in a storm for versatility)

[FlameAnvil]

Well, you can have 3 LRS of any type spending no more then 750 on them and have 3 tac squads, a libby and a dred or something else. You can sit on 2 obj and contest a 3rd real easy.

[DarkGuard]

Well, you can have 3 LRS of any type spending no more then 750 on them and have 3 tac squads, a libby and a dred or something else. You can sit on 2 obj and contest a 3rd real easy.

 

True, but then if you're looking to contest one objective why not have some Assault Terminators in place of one of the Tactical Squads and upgrade your Libby to Terminator Armour and Storm Shield? Or would that be too risky due to the loss of a scoring unit? That's the real question ;)

[Koremu]

At 1500 I take 2 10 man Tac Squads. I rarely Combat Squad, due to the loss of survivability and the loss of Transport.

[DarkGuard]

At 1500 I take 2 10 man Tac Squads. I rarely Combat Squad, due to the loss of survivability and the loss of Transport.

 

Interesting, that's how I've started thinking at the moment. Have you had problems with only two scoring units in objective games? Or do you find any problems essentially negated by the ability to spend more points on 'killy' units and the such?

[Koremu]

At 1500 I take 2 10 man Tac Squads. I rarely Combat Squad, due to the loss of survivability and the loss of Transport.

 

Interesting, that's how I've started thinking at the moment. Have you had problems with only two scoring units in objective games? Or do you find any problems essentially negated by the ability to spend more points on 'killy' units and the such?

It's only ever a problem in 5 Objective games. Any other type of game and you have enough Scorers to take half the Objectives anyway.

 

Also, by the Standards of my Local Metagame, my Troops expenditure is considered excessive. Eldar Lists with 5 DAs and 3 Guardian Jetbikes are typical (I take great joy in ganking those units too).

[DarkGuard]

We must have very different LGSs then, my Troops expenditure is considered small. Then again we have 60 Marine Chaos lists and 6 Warrior Dark Eldar lists. Plus most Eldar lists are 10 Rangers and 10 Dire Avengers. I remember that before a tournament someone with a Blood Angels list with only a RAS and Tactical Squad as scoring units was criticised. He then won all his games with that list, so I've been trying it recently (only having two Troops that is).

 

Thanks again for your input Koremu :rolleyes:

[Chengar Qordath]

At 1500 I like to field 3-4 scoring units. Although I use the space wolves codex and grey hunters are probably one of the best scoring units in the game. They have a lot of killy power and can still take those important objectives. With C:SM I have found that Kantor with sternguard work well.

This does cover one of the biggest issues with how many scoring units to take; some codices have better scoring units than others. While the tactical squad is generally considered fairly lacklustre so most players minimize how many they have to take, other options like Grey Hunters, Khorne Berzerkers and Plague Marines, or Battlesisters are good enough to be worth spamming.

[Koremu]

We must have very different LGSs then, my Troops expenditure is considered small. Then again we have 60 Marine Chaos lists and 6 Warrior Dark Eldar lists. Plus most Eldar lists are 10 Rangers and 10 Dire Avengers. I remember that before a tournament someone with a Blood Angels list with only a RAS and Tactical Squad as scoring units was criticised. He then won all his games with that list, so I've been trying it recently (only having two Troops that is).

 

Thanks again for your input Koremu :)

You're welcome. And I don't see why having 2 Troops choices is frowned upon. If someone didn't like mine I would feel compelled to point out that those 2 Troops units are fully one-third of all the Tactical Marines on the planet.

[Jackelope King]

And I don't see why having 2 Troops choices is frowned upon. If someone didn't like mine I would feel compelled to point out that those 2 Troops units are fully one-third of all the Tactical Marines on the planet.

Pretty much. You need exactly enough troops on the table to be able to hold one objective at the end of the game, and enough models to contest the other.

 

If your opponent is devoting firepower to killing off your troops, that's less firepower going towards units that can, well, be killy ^_^

 

My Bikers run three units of Bike Squads at 2000 and 2500 (with the squads being bulked up to full size at 2500 from 5 models at 2000). It takes a pretty significant amount of firepower to shoot through a unit of Bikers, and most of my foes have learned that targeting my troops means a Biker Command Squad is going to come crashing into them at full strength, and my firebase will keep shooting unabated.

[norngahl]

Actually I find tacticals pretty resilent- split them into 2x5, one of the 5 with heavy weapon, the other into seargent with combiweapon and cc-power gear and combi weapon and you have 2 scoring units that are pretty versatile and at least your opponent has to waste firepower to wipe out all 5 man or there ist always one or two lonely marines with special weapons swirling around and holding objectives^^ 5 Marines are still tough to take out completly in real. Paper and real warfare is different. Just make sure you don´t drop your people in front of plasmaweapons or battlecannons.. But tacticals become real great if you support them correct. They are tough against any hits that doesn´t ignore their armor or against real massed shots. When you can make sure you keep them away from this, T4 3+AS is a tough nut for most enemies, even for marines. Marines aren´t tougher at 10 man groups, I think it´s the other way round. You either have to waste firepower to kill 5 marines or leave one or two, they always regroup, a IG psyker squad can only blast 5 man instead of 10.. everything about 2x5 man is better, except that 5 man groups tend to loose special equippment earlier, but that´s the price for target overload!

 

Personally I think Marines don´t need much elite support as their troops are already elite. I use my elites (sternguards) with 10 combimeltas, dropping next to the nastiest targets.. Split them into 2x5 and melt anything but land raiders to death or shoot guard psykers out of cover.. They are the ultimate anti-tank and mobile thunderfire cannons. Most enemies really rely on a few baskets. If you crack these units with your elite-suicides, your tacticals will prevail. Melta-sternguard and TFC are your best friend to support tacticals.. Sternguards take out armored baskets or heavy elites, while TFC greatly reduce mobs, kick out hordes like guard out of cover (while sitting save in the deployment zone and aren´t as suicidal as sternguards) and slow down fast lists.

 

Sure, you could play more elites than troops (or anything else like assault units or tanks) but me thinks the more targets you have, the lesser hard will be the loss as all are expendable. I guess Tacticals become worser if you don´t field them in hordes. Either field them in hordes or minimal core of 2x5 barebones and then with nothing but heavy hitters. In my experience both ways work, but they have to be done absolute.

 

At 2000 points I tend to field 1 Librarian with TDA and SS (Nullzone, Vortex), 20 Sternguards with 20 Combimeltas in Drop Pods, 40 Tacticals with PF, Combimelta, Melta, Multimelta in Drop Pods and 2 TFC. So far this list always rocked the house. Biggest problem- make sure this IG HQ squad dies so your reserves arrive at 4+ instead of 5+ and his on 4+ as well insted of 3+.

 

If you don´t field an anti-list to this it will cause serious harm. Best thing ever is the opponets face: "You´ve smashed my airborne-IG with tacticals? Man, didn´t know they are sooo overpowered" :P

[Hellios]

At 1,500pts I run roughly 40 marines... (I didn't have this as an aim but looking at different C:SM lists, my current SW list and my DA list it is true)... I also would imgaine my black templars might come closer to 30 at 1,500pts (I normally use them for 2,000 and don't have a list sorted) but then I have all the neophytes to bulk them up.

 

With the SWs grey hunters rock so thats why I have a few... with my SM and DA lists I have 2-3 tactical squads (they can always split if I want)... and my BT is a black tide list... Personally I think it is more about models on the board.

 

So it all comes down to points distribution... If you totally pimped out those two combat squads and your HQ and the couple of other squads you have then I would say you don't have enough troops... if you balance your list right to get enough models with the right surviabillity and mobillity (and hopefully a little punch) then as long as you don't waste your troops you are good.

 

I take Jackelope king as an example, he seems to know what is talking about when he posts (not that I always agree, for example I'm more in favour of power fists than he is but I think that is down to play style) and basically what things nomally come down to is suitable points distribution within squads for the role they need to do. For how I use my tacticals (and Grey Hunters and so on, although my DAs take non) PFs are often worth it but when reading Jackelope King's posts it is obvious the manner he uses them in is different from mine. SO yer as long as your list is lean and mean you are good ^_^ I personally think some codices are better at this than others... but that is just me.

[FlameAnvil]

I always lose when I have more troops then anything else, My Mecanized marines have never lost.

At 1500 last Saturday I only had 2 10man tac squads with no tanks, and i got crushed, later that day 2 5 man squads in LRs 2 obj to 0. So i would say you need more big hitters then troops.

 

@Hellios: 40 marines? Wow, spam spam spam the tac squads, though as a sally I take redeemers= best thing for removeing those troops from OBJ. high ap, no cover= dead everything.

 

@ Nornghal: Play SOBs S:8 ap:1 d6= no more marines. I had split my Dev squad and both of my tac squads I lost by a lot!

[Captain Idaho]

40 Marines is alot! That is what I love about 5th edition, there are so many more competetive lists in each Codex! I would enjoy facing it, as I have a large amount of hitting power but less feet on the ground, so our battles would be quite a cut and thrust between us.

 

Personally I like to use 3; 2 Full Tactical squads in Rhinos plus a smaller 5 man one, sometimes 5 Tactical Marines with a Librarian or a small Scout squad. This is for games of 1,500pts to 1,750pts.

 

The reason for this is because I need the extra bodies often, especially in a close fought game. I don't go over this amount because I love Dreads and other stuff so much more.

 

2-3 split between 20-30 is the reasonable amount for any Space Marine army. Not too much that it takes away your points for other stuff, not too little that that they are at risk of being all taken out.

[DarkGuard]

Thanks for all the responses guys, I think it's clear to say that the optimum amount of scoring units changes depending on the person using them.

 

I played my first objective game with just two Tactical Squads today, and won, annihilating the enemy. OK it was only two objectives, but the presence of the Sternguard and Vindicators diverted attention onto them, and let one squad of Tactical Marines butcher it's way through two squads of Sisters to reach the objective, and the other was ignored as it was sitting back.

 

Certainly this has given me faith that two Tactical Squads are fine, as you still have 20 T4 3+ save scoring Marines, plus lots of room for killy stuff.

[Jackelope King]

I take Jackelope king as an example, he seems to know what is talking about when he posts (not that I always agree, for example I'm more in favour of power fists than he is but I think that is down to play style) and basically what things nomally come down to is suitable points distribution within squads for the role they need to do. For how I use my tacticals (and Grey Hunters and so on, although my DAs take non) PFs are often worth it but when reading Jackelope King's posts it is obvious the manner he uses them in is different from mine. SO yer as long as your list is lean and mean you are good :P I personally think some codices are better at this than others... but that is just me.

Heh, thanks for the vote of confidence, Helios. Glad to see my points aren't dismissed completely out of hand ;)

[Fetterkey]

I typically have seven scoring units in 2,000 point games-- three Tactical Squads using Combat Squads and a small unit of Scouts.

[Koremu]

I don't think I'd ever use three full 10 man Tactical Squads. Too much duplication for me - I value variety. Two 10 man Squads and a 5 man Squad with an Assault Cannon Razorback (outflanking) is about my limit on Tacticals.

 

For games larger than 1750 I would almost always take either a Scout or Bike Squad, TBH.

[FlameAnvil]

It's interesting to see all the diffrent views on the number of scoreing uints. just goes to show, SMs have the most flexabilty when it come to armies.

 

Infantry

Light Mechanized infantry

Balanced

Heavy infantry

Full Mechanized

[TyrionTheImp]

As a C:DA player I love how my Deathwing terminators are killy and objective holders, of course that requires a special character and a different 'dex.

 

In my lesser experience (but slowly growing) with C:SM I've actually found lesser amounts to be better. Our guys are tough as nails, but at the same time with upgrades and transport they're over the 200 mark for 10. It's all about play style though, I've heard people talk about their massive power armor hordes that do quite well with a higher number of squads, but I feel killiness is a greater factor in the game than having people to hold places. You can kill their troops if you have more dangerous things, and at the same time you're drawing fire away from your own troops. Also, you can win by tabling in any game type, and anything can contest. It's nice though to have some of the best Troops though where 2 really is enough sometimes, and it's not like Tacticals are BAD at killing stuff either.

 

Space Wolves on the other hand...Grey Hunters are just awesome.