The Horus Heresy - Favourite book (or books) so far?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

everytime A D-B posts something i hate the fact i have to wait for books....I WANT IT ALL NOW!!!!

 

i am turning into a fanboy.

 

WLK

[Rain]

Legion, then Horus Rising then Galaxy in Flames. In fact, Legion is probably the best BL book that I have ever read, it was exactly what 40k fiction should in my opinion be and was just well done on all fronts. On the other hand, Fulgrim sticks out as one that I especially reviled. That book single handedly destroyed my love for the Emperor's Children and my plans for a Slaanesh army. Honestly McNiell should be kept away from anything other than straightforward bolter porn, anything requiring a plot more complex plot than "group A wants to blow up thing B owned by group C" should be given to other authors.

[Walter Payton]

Legion, then Horus Rising then Galaxy in Flames. In fact, Legion is probably the best BL book that I have ever read, it was exactly what 40k fiction should in my opinion be and was just well done on all fronts. On the other hand, Fulgrim sticks out as one that I especially reviled. That book single handedly destroyed my love for the Emperor's Children and my plans for a Slaanesh army. Honestly McNiell should be kept away from anything other than straightforward bolter porn, anything requiring a plot more complex plot than "group A wants to blow up thing B owned by group C" should be given to other authors.

 

Quantify that statement; I'm interested, seeing as I have £7.99 saved for a new BL book.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I must say that I disagree. I've not read any of McNeill's Ultramarine stuff (mostly because of how horrible BnC and the Warseer crews claim it is, but also because I just don't like Ultramarines), but I have to say that Fulgrim is one of my favorites in the HH so far. Now part of that is down to my Iron Hands fanboyism, but I think he did a decent job describing what can only be called a descent into madness by the Emperor's Children. It's not a WHAM-one-shot-deal like with Horus that so many people dislike; at least with Fulgrim and his boys, it is a slow process that consists entirely of a one-little-push-after-another before they finally fall completely. Fulgrim and Ferrus are believably written and true to established fluff, whereas, say, in A Thousand Sons, Russ comes off as a huge jackass where all the Wolf players on here claim he's anything but.

 

I'd really like to know why you think Fulgrim is so bad.

[Rain]

@Alecto

Honestly I'm kind of surprised you haven't read Legion yet as you seem like a fluff nutter, and most fluff nutters have. Well let's see, first of all, it's a marine book that is mostly written from the perspective of humans, both normal humans that are the equivalent of guardsmen and Grammaticus who is thematically similar to an inquisitor.

 

The main thing I love about it is that it is just a straight up solid sci fi book with some genuine surprises assuming you haven't read the enormous amounts of spoilers all over this site, and provides a look at marines that actually keeps some of the mystique of their post-humanity intact by not delving too far into their heads and keeping them a kind of "other" that is juxtaposed with the human characters, almost like how the film Alien was good because the titular creature wasn't explained completely.

 

This works especially well as the Alpha Legion is probably the least written about Chaos Legion so there is still some mystique to be had, and the fact that the book never explicitly reveals their true motives while offering several valid extrapolations, speaks to its credit.

 

@Ferrum

I didn't like Fulgrim because it was a bad book. Let's see, first of all, he used the artifact of doom cliche to explain how Fulgrim fell. Instead of actually trying to come up with an interesting way that someone like him could fall, he went for the equivalent of "a wizard did it". Then he pastes in some hamfisted allusions to The Picture of Dorian Gray, while missing the point which was Dorian's outward attractiveness hiding his deepening inward corruption. Instead, Fulgrim paints his face all Joker-like and walks around in a toga. He then kills that one artist guy which is also stolen from TPODG, but in Fulgrim this serves no purpose other than to be "an allusion".

 

Then it just gets stupider. There's a completely pointless part in which Fulgrim kills an avatar, while at no point wondering whether the fact that his "conscience" only appears when he has his new sword that he found in an alien brothel might be a bad sign, especially as he is flat out told it is. The part in which he meets Ferrus is actually not bad, I agree. Then the stupidity starts again. An evil composer lady makes evil instruments that play evil music that turns marines evil. Some daemons are released which actually makes some in-universe sense, but then instead of fighting them like they did the other times they encountered Slaanesh things (warsingers, Laer) they deicide to have sex with one another. This despite the fact that it's unclear how anyone other than Fulgrim and maybe Fabius and Eidolon are really corrupted.

 

Then Fulgrim goes to fight Ferrus Mannus, but he doesn't want to kill him so he lets the daemon take over. This part is actually ok, but since it's predicated on the "a wizard did it" deus ex machina that came before it leaves some to be desired. Which is kind of the point. In Wilde's novel, Dorian himself became debauched, he was not possessed, he wasn't demonic, he just had many means to things and no negative repercussions, that's what made it interesting, unlike Fulgrim.

[increaso]

in A Thousand Sons, Russ comes off as a huge jackass where all the Wolf players on here claim he's anything but.

 

I'd really like to know why you think Fulgrim is so bad.

 

I suspect that Prospero Burns will show us a significantly different view of the Space Wolves. After all, A Thousand Sons is from the perspective of Thousand Sons and Abnett has mentioned that the collaboration with McNeil would not necessarily result in a consistant account of the events that overlap.

 

In any event, i loved the Space Wolves in A Thousand Sons. I'm such a fanboy and they were right about those shifty sorcerors after all ... weren't they?

 

Now Fulgrim.

 

I would also like to know why people dislike this book. There was one scene that was a bit 'adult' compared to the usual boundaries of these novels, but overall it was a good read.

 

edit: thanks Rain for your analysis. I was a little disappointed that Fulgrim had the 'demon did it' excuse as you pointed out, but isn't that the established fluff - shame that it is.

[Walter Payton]

@Alecto

Honestly I'm kind of surprised you haven't read Legion yet as you seem like a fluff nutter, and most fluff nutters have.

 

I actually meant Fulgrim. But you answered that pretty well for Deus Ex Ferrum. I think I will buy Battle for the Abyss instead then.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I jest.

[Aqatone]

I didn't like Fulgrim because it was a bad book. Let's see, first of all, he used the artifact of doom cliche to explain how Fulgrim fell. Instead of actually trying to come up with an interesting way that someone like him could fall, he went for the equivalent of "a wizard did it". Then he pastes in some hamfisted allusions to The Picture of Dorian Gray, while missing the point which was Dorian's outward attractiveness hiding his deepening inward corruption. Instead, Fulgrim paints his face all Joker-like and walks around in a toga. He then kills that one artist guy which is also stolen from TPODG, but in Fulgrim this serves no purpose other than to be "an allusion".

 

Then it just gets stupider. There's a completely pointless part in which Fulgrim kills an avatar, while at no point wondering whether the fact that his "conscience" only appears when he has his new sword that he found in an alien brothel might be a bad sign, especially as he is flat out told it is. The part in which he meets Ferrus is actually not bad, I agree. Then the stupidity starts again. An evil composer lady makes evil instruments that play evil music that turns marines evil. Some daemons are released which actually makes some in-universe sense, but then instead of fighting them like they did the other times they encountered Slaanesh things (warsingers, Laer) they deicide to have sex with one another. This despite the fact that it's unclear how anyone other than Fulgrim and maybe Fabius and Eidolon are really corrupted.

 

Then Fulgrim goes to fight Ferrus Mannus, but he doesn't want to kill him so he lets the daemon take over. This part is actually ok, but since it's predicated on the "a wizard did it" deus ex machina that came before it leaves some to be desired. Which is kind of the point. In Wilde's novel, Dorian himself became debauched, he was not possessed, he wasn't demonic, he just had many means to things and no negative repercussions, that's what made it interesting, unlike Fulgrim.

 

This. This 100 times over. It felt as though there was a good book underneath all of this trying to get out - but the stupidity of parts, the genericness, the obviousness, just knocked it right back down. I always wondered: if Fulgrim is trying to be so perfect, why is he so stupid? I don't know what it is with McNeill, it comes across as though he lacks... inspiration? And gives into run of the mill standards of writing. Safe. Obvious. Uninspired.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Perhaps my better view of Fulgrim is due to the fact that I've never actually read The Picture of Dorian Gray and have only a passing familiarization with that story. And not all of the Childrens' fall is due to the Laer daemon-sword; Fabius' new progenoid organs were developed by him completely independent of the sword, and it took some serious "Lucy! You got some 'splainin' to do!" on Fabius' part to get Fulgrim and the other officers to agree to his experiments.

 

Now on to how everyone was corrupted. When they waltzed into the Laer temple, every single one of them was exposed to the influence of Slaanesh. Most of them were corrupted on the spot, but it was slow and insidious -- the way I imagine Chaos acting. If they had walked in and then walked out again screaming the praises of the Prince of Pleasure, I'd agree with you that it was crap. But most of them were initially sickened by the riot of sound and color. Some of them -- Vespasian springs to mind -- were disgusted and cut out as quick as they could. But the ones affected now had a touch of Slaanesh rooted in their minds. Like a small bit of meat stuck between your teeth when you're without a toothpick or floss, they kept worrying at it and thinking about it and trying to make sense of it. If the human mind does one thing over and over again, it tries to rationalize that which makes no sense to it. For a group of people who are already perfectionists -- artists and Astartes alike -- spending months mulling over the insidious touch of a Chaos power is going to be enough to suck you in and corrupt you, which will lead inevitably towards embracing Chaos as a means to your end. In this case, the Children and the remembrancers sought perfection and new experiences which they discovered came only after giving in to Chaos (though they didn't know the concept of Chaos at the time). Or for another example: radical inquisitors like Quixos. He fought against Chaos for a long time but found that as a means to their end (defeating Chaos), he had to utilize the artifice of the Warp. In the end, Quixos was consumed by it and became an agent of Chaos.

 

But that's just how I see it and we're all different, so I'm not going to belabor the point anymore. I think, however, that we can all agree that Battle for the Abyss was a complete waste of time.

[Walter Payton]

I think, however, that we can all agree that Battle for the Abyss was a complete waste of time.

 

Well, not entirely. Some of the stuff on the Word Bearers (the different chapter names, the rituals, etc) was interesting, but the actual characterisation and storytelling was poor.

[Dark Mechanicum]

everytime A D-B posts something i hate the fact i have to wait for books....I WANT IT ALL NOW!!!!

 

i am turning into a fanboy.

 

WLK

 

Am there already, its quite lovely actually. Lots of cookies and Cake...oh yea and Cobra.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

everytime A D-B posts something i hate the fact i have to wait for books....I WANT IT ALL NOW!!!!

 

i am turning into a fanboy.

 

WLK

 

Am there already, its quite lovely actually. Lots of cookies and Cake...oh yea and Cobra.

 

Cookies AND Cake!?!?

 

I am sold.

 

WLK

[Dark Mechanicum]

And Cobra....we must always bow down to Cobra.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I believe I have read them all, barring "A Thousand Sons" and I haven't listened to the audio-books.

 

Horus Rising was a delight to read. I had dodged reading GW books, but it was Pacific and The Great Crusade forum that stirred up an interest in me for GW literature.

 

I loved Loken and even the Remembrancers. I wanted to follow Horus! What a legend! I loved the whole Atheistic slant and only pure cold logic was tolerable.

Such a juxtaposition to 40K.

 

I actually wish the rest of the series held these 30K principles more dear and kept re-emphasising them instead of diminishing them.

 

Flight of the Eisenstein was grand. Garro was a hero and I loved getting an insight into the Death Guard. If only they were white à la existing fluff ^_^

Having his world view turned inside out was very interesting to watch, nd would have been very traumatic for him.

 

I liked Fulgrim. A bit patchy in areas, but other parts were very good, and Fulgrim's fate was tragic even though he acted like a git.

 

Mechanicum was exciting as we have not had much to do with AdMech fluff. McNeill did a good job with that too.

 

They would be my top four to date.

[Ashe Darke]

Horus Rising was a very good book, it kinda felt a bit like a Hollywood film at times. It also did something which you don't see too often in BL books which is using framing devices. It plays around with time as well with certain aspects being Loken's recollections of events rather than past tense 3rd person real-time which is pretty much BL standard. So from that POV it offers a lot more than the other ones. The only other book to not go for that typical story telling method was Fallen Angels.

 

I think my favourite is Galaxy In Flames though. The sense of wrongness behind Horus's actions, the galaxy wide divide he causes and how easily he shakes this empire to it's core. And there is the stuff with the Saint, and how you genuinely feel that the Emperor is guiding them to safety. The feeling of a desperate struggle that had dire consequences if they didn't escape (this is also true of Flight Of The Eisenstein, but it just doesn't have mass genocide of GiF). Iacton Qruze taking a stand against the Legion's decline. It laid good, evil and the struggle out beautifully and I've never felt so immersed in a book like that, and what a situation to be immersed into? And to take something that you already knew was going to happen and have you going 'NO! NOOOO!' is pretty impressive. Of course this was all set up beautifully in the first two books. Dan and Graham set up the dominoes and with their help Ben set it all rolling. It's probably more down to the subject matter rather than any particular skill on Ben's behalf though (not that he did a bad job) and I heard he got a lot of help from Dan and Graham.

 

So on a stance of how well it was written, devices, techniques etc Horus Rising is yet to be beaten and from more soulful stance Galaxy In Flames. Legion blew my mind first time around and I'm sure I read it again pretty soon afterwards and liked it, but after leaving quite a bit of a gap and coming back it had lost it's charm. Sure first time around when you don't know what's going on it's all exciting and when stuff gets revealed you're like 'no way!'. But for re-reading value it kinda feels like Sixth Sense or any of those other twist films, except Prestige, that film is awesome. First time around yeah, brilliant, was amazing, but then it was spent.

 

As for short stories obviously The Last Church was very cool although it did make we wonder about the crusade. Obviously we know that compliance wasn't possible on some planets and I always said to myself it's because the Emperor wasn't there in person because surely if they met him they would join up. But when he couldn't convince that priest who had been inadvertently been following him all along, that's when I started to question the crusade.

 

Wolf At The Door has my favourite SW representation, they weren't Vikings or hot headed morons, they were smart and focused with the rage being held back until the moment was right. Now that level of self restraint I really liked, it's what wolves are like, not uncontrollable loons. It kinda sets them apart from the actual loons, the World Eaters and the other books have kinda lumped them in with that lot in my head and I personally think they're above that, but still, personal tastes and all.

 

Blood Games was also very cool, touching on something we've not seen much about. It did what it was supposed to, give you a taste of other things that were going on without requiring a whole book, and it did it quite nicely.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

And to take something that you already knew was going to happen and have you going 'NO! NOOOO!' is pretty impressive. Of course this was all set up beautifully in the first two books. Dan and Graham set up the dominoes and with their help Ben set it all rolling. It's probably more down to the subject matter rather than any particular skill on Ben's behalf though (not that he did a bad job) and I heard he got a lot of help from Dan and Graham.

 

So on a stance of how well it was written, devices, techniques etc Horus Rising is yet to be beaten and from more soulful stance Galaxy In Flames.

Blood Games was also very cool, touching on something we've not seen much about. It did what it was supposed to, give you a taste of other things that were going on without requiring a whole book, and it did it quite nicely.

 

I agree with you on the "I know X is a bad, but wow, I really liked him as a goodie"

Maybe that is why I didn't want to read the HH series ~ duh, I know what happens already ;) :P

 

Tales of the Heresy was good too. I really wanted to slap the DA officer from Caliban.

 

I liked all the HH series more or less. :D :lol:

[Dark Mechanicum]

Yea, the Dark Angel officer from Caliban was just wow on my part. Best part is, if you read the Angels of Darkness the Dark Angel novel, the short story was very good at keeping it going with The Tale of Astelan and how the new made Dark Angels were very sneaky gits. Minus the Librarian from the two books.

[Morollan]

fulgrim and legion so far.

 

terrible ones so far: descent of angels and battle for the abyss.

 

This, pretty much, with Legion just about pipping Fulgrim to the top spot, mainly due to Grammaticus.

 

DoA was utter rubbish and I have no idea why they even released the book, although Fallen Angels (the sequel) was far, far better.

 

BftA is also a load of crap which I finished only because I hate putting a book down without seeing it through to the end.

[I am the Stig]

Well, I'm only half way through Descent of Angels, though I've a feeling that when I get too Legion, Mechancicum and (when it's released) the First heretic. Primarily because of the collossal man crush I have on those books protagonists.

 

In no particular order:

Descent of Angels:

I know lots of you hate this book, but as a DA player I actually enjoyed it. Seeing the origins of well established things such as the Ravenwing and Cypher was a real treat. Plus, I would say that I am a bit of a 'true fantasy' nut, so seeing future Dark Angels riding on horseback fight monsters was cool to say the least. (Also, it's fun to play the guessing game of which of Nemiel and Zaharieh becomes Fallen)

 

Flight of the Eisenstein:

Should be obvious really. Even despite the great storyline and awesome, identifiable charectors (and come on, who doesn't like the Lord of the Flies? :)), the thing that really made that book awesome was Mortarion. Mor-fething-tar-ion, the primarch of my beloved Death Guard kicking ass in battle. Just plain awesome.

 

Horus Rising:

The book that started it all. Detailing the Luna Wolves before any chaos influence made them just one big pile of teenage angst, it got me interested in the series from page 1. The Mournival were simply amazing (yes, even failbaddon), and I enjoyed the Spearhead style of warfare. And, to not put to fine a point on it, Horus was the man.

[Haakon Ironheart]

Horus Rising is my first choice. It almost brought tears to my eyes.

 

Galaxy in Flames is my second choice. A true epic...

 

Prospero burns will be my third choice. It has always been good to burn arrogant TS...

[Calgar 2.0]

It might sound pretty cliche, but Flight of The Eisenstein was a my favorite Horus Heresy book. The writing was understandable, and they described the Captains, and the warriors of their command, pretty well.

 

P.S. A-D-B, you could have probably done the Ultras some justice.

[Molasar]

The original novel, Horus Rising and Legion as well. Also enjoyed Galaxy in Flames as everything began to unravel.

[Deus Acerbitas]

I find it funny how just about everyone hates on DoA and loves Fallen Angels. I personally have read DoA twice, and still have failed to make it through Fallen Angels once...

 

But anyways, my favorites would probably be Fulgrim, Galaxy in Flames, and Legion

[valanus]

To be fair I don't thought that any of the HH series so far can really be described as bad, though some are far superior to others. I'm currently trying to soldier my way through the Inquisition War omnibus and find myself having to stop every chapter or two to stop myself from swallowing my own brain in disappointment....

[Walter Payton]

P.S. A-D-B, you could have probably done the Ultras some justice.

 

Eh? His portrayal of us was spot-on.

 

P.S Can anyone quote me the physical description of John Grammaticus? I need it for a story, and have lost my copy of Legion.