Tactics of Frustration

[Foolio_Displasius]

For the last few months a buddy and I have been slowly getting into 40K with new 500pt armies. He's a Tau-playin' noob, and I'm an old hand with 3rd/4th ed Marines whose 40K days got derailed by marriage & grad school. Coming back, I gotta say I'm having serious trouble adjusting my old playstyle to 5th; it feels like the Nilla codex has undermined some of my core army comp preferences. I could use a hand finding compatible replacements.

 

My biggest pain point is the HQ. Would it be grossly uncouth to say that I feel like all the HQ choices have something "wrong" with them? I dislike expensive HQs, yet I insist on at least an inv save, and I'd prefer a better-than-regular-Marine statline. Unless I'm missing something, this seems precisely what the 5th Nilla dex has been tuned not to provide. For reference, my gold standard in 4th was a cheap cheap jump Chaplain with meltabombs, optionally a Plasma Pistol. The rest of my army worked by a battle plan, while this guy just ran around popping targets of opportunity. He was an inexpensive, mobile, expendable distraction who could plug holes in my line and still cause the odd bit of significant damage. Where can such be found in 5th?

 

Another pain point is the troops. Let me just say this so we can all get the laughter out of the way: Under 4th ed I ran 8-man infiltrating footslogger Tac squads with a Fistvet and dual special weaponry. Argh. They were a little static, but they offered an unbeatable cost-value proposition. Now I must spend almost the cost of a Land Raider in order to field a viable Tac squad, i.e., one with heavy/special weapons, a non-trivial Sergeand, and the now-ubiquitous Rhino. To me this feels like a net loss.

 

Also on the subject of troops: In 3rd/4th I saw Scouts as slightly bargain-basement Marines, but liked them and usually took 1 squad. In 5th, however, their statlines just worry me. I'm not sure I'd trust them to anchor a flank or provide cover fire the way I used to. Less BS on the ML doesn't help either... and I'm having a hard time deciding if Tellion is worth the investment to make up the difference. I mean, they're Scouts: Tacs on a budget. Keep 'em cheap, right?

 

Just to wrap this up, I don't post this for the sake of venting against perceived evils of 5th--I'm just an old guy with an old army, and I'm struggling to make my way in the new codex. Thing is, if I can survive this compulsory stuff, I know the 5th ed codex rocks. Whirlwinds are still cheap & killy, Dreads can still rip it up, and surprise of surprises, the "combi-pred" I always favored is now the choice of champions!

[Zynk Kaladin]

My most favorite HQ choice is definitely a pure 100 point librarian with avenger. Yes, he has the stat line of a marine except WS, W, and A and yes, he doesn't have an inv save. However, if attached to a squad he's fine in the not dying department. He already comes with a power weapon (well, force weapon) in his costs and Avenger gives you a nice S5 AP3 flamer template! First of all, a flamer template is great at thinning Tau infantry and AP3 will put the hurt on those battlesuits. Chaplains are still decent in low point games, but I'm no expert with them other than with assault squads.

 

As for tactical squads, yea they're expensive. However, if you put the points into them then they can be a nice backbone to your army. I like running 10 man squads with a Power Fist Serg, Missile Launcher, Plasma Gun, and Rhino. Very flexible; this squad can effectively hurt light armor, walkers, monstrous creatures, independent characters without eternal warrior, MEQ, and regular infantry. Expensive, but they do their job.

 

I don't know much about Tellion other than he's great for popping individual units in an enemy squad or bringing a scout with a missile launcher with him. I donno if he's worth the cost. I like the idea of a Land Speeder Storm with heavy flamer outflanking my enemy and dropping a 5 man CC scout squad with a powerfist serg. Great for contesting your enemy's obj late game or popping that unit making you sweat on turn 1.

 

EDIT: I heard somewhere CC scouts LOVE fighting Tau. Infiltrate a 10 man unit behind their lines and smack the hell out of them :P My friend is getting a Tau army so I'm gonna give the scouts a try.

[KhorneHunter57x]

Firstly, I agree that the Libby is the best value for the points for small games. You have a variety of powers to choose from (I personally prefer Smite over Avenger, but that is just me. Against Tau I would go for Avenger/Force Dome.) and he is generally good.

 

As for Troops, although the Tacticals are expensive to get a viable squad, I think they are worth it. The Combat Squads rule really helps, as you have the option of parking a Rhino with the Missile Marine (Free missile launcher) in the back, and marching up with the Sarge, Special Weapon, and dealing quite a bit of damage. Also, the free grenades are a blessing. I run the same loadout on my Tacticals that Zynk Kaladin does: Power Fist, Plasgun, Missile, and Rhino (except I grab a Hunter-Killer for the Rhino), and I think they are great.

 

I don't think that Telion is worth the cost. He can be worth it, but I think to make his squad survivable enough to be worth the points you have to buy Camo Cloaks, and then you are paying the same price as Marines for a unit that only gets it's 3+ when in cover, and has a lower BS.

[greatcrusade08]

Against Tau i normally wouldnt bother with Telion, nor would i try to outshoot him..

 

But i dont want to turn this advice thread into a "how to beat tau" thread..

 

What i think you should be doing at low points is taking one of the cheapest HQs, whihc is either a chappy or libby..

what you could do is take a 5 man tac squad with fist in a razorback to accompany your libby, and throw in a cheap unit of scouts to make up the second slot..

Youll then be left with plenty of points to add in something special.

 

For the scouts, by far the best option is ten scouts with fist and combi-flamer for 175 points, i can sound alot but they can outflank/infiltrate and can throw out the same number of S4 attacks as an assault squad, and against opponenets like tau (WS2) they still hit on 3's and wound on 3's

[Foolio_Displasius]

Thanks for your ideas thus far.

 

greatcrusade08 - I've toyed with that idea of a 5-man Tac squad with Razorback supporting a cheap HQ, but need some advice about tactics for them. If my scouts are infiltrating/outflanking, the Tacs+HQ+Razor are likely to be an isolated target ripe for his battlesuits.

 

That reminds me: I'd prefer to build an all-comers army than an anti-Tau army, but I still need something that can stop those frickin' battlesuits. They're so mobile and nasty! Is this best handled by an HQ unit, or deepstrikers/podders?

[greatcrusade08]

I find that a land speeder storm (with heavy flamer) and a scout squad with combi-flamer and fist works well against most armies, and with thier mobility will either get first turn charges or can outflank with a 20" assault range on the turn they arrive..

That should stop those battlesuits, in assault they have limited abilites whereas that fist will bend them over!

[ShinyRhino]

My biggest pain point is the HQ. Would it be grossly uncouth to say that I feel like all the HQ choices have something "wrong" with them? I dislike expensive HQs, yet I insist on at least an inv save, and I'd prefer a better-than-regular-Marine statline. Unless I'm missing something, this seems precisely what the 5th Nilla dex has been tuned not to provide. For reference, my gold standard in 4th was a cheap cheap jump Chaplain with meltabombs, optionally a Plasma Pistol. The rest of my army worked by a battle plan, while this guy just ran around popping targets of opportunity. He was an inexpensive, mobile, expendable distraction who could plug holes in my line and still cause the odd bit of significant damage. Where can such be found in 5th?

 

ICs can no longer run willy-nilly about the battlefield all by their lonesome. They're far too easy to kill in a single shot. One failed invulnerable save against a krak missile or lascannon, and you lose that HQ. Marine HQs are force multipliers. Most are junk when looked at as a single unit. It's when you add them to another unit, or consider their effect on the whole army, that they start to shine.

If you want a dirt-cheap HQ unit that won't be a major distraction, and is hellaciously durable, consider Chaplain Cassius. His statline is great, he's got some neat armaments, plus all of the benefits of a standard chaplain. You just can't put a jump pack on him.

 

Another pain point is the troops. Let me just say this so we can all get the laughter out of the way: Under 4th ed I ran 8-man infiltrating footslogger Tac squads with a Fistvet and dual special weaponry. Argh. They were a little static, but they offered an unbeatable cost-value proposition. Now I must spend almost the cost of a Land Raider in order to field a viable Tac squad, i.e., one with heavy/special weapons, a non-trivial Sergeand, and the now-ubiquitous Rhino. To me this feels like a net loss.

 

The first thing you have to do to adapt to 5th Edition is to change yur mindset, unfortunately. In Fifth, Troops are king. 2/3 of all games will inviolve objectives, which only Troops can claim. You're going to need to put some points into your Troops choices to win. Luckily, Marines have some of the best Troop units in the game, from a shooting and durability standpoint.

 

Also on the subject of troops: In 3rd/4th I saw Scouts as slightly bargain-basement Marines, but liked them and usually took 1 squad. In 5th, however, their statlines just worry me. I'm not sure I'd trust them to anchor a flank or provide cover fire the way I used to. Less BS on the ML doesn't help either... and I'm having a hard time deciding if Tellion is worth the investment to make up the difference. I mean, they're Scouts: Tacs on a budget. Keep 'em cheap, right?

 

Scouts are NOT tactical Marines on a budget. They're a completely different animal. They can use a Scout move (with the Move Through Cover rule!), setup deep into the board via Infiltrate, or come on from a short board edge via Outflank. Those options alone make them very tricky to play, harder to master, but incredibly versatile.

Yes, they have lower BS and WS than tacs. Your snipers will hit and wound less than they used to, as will the missile launcher. But, the heavy bolter can now spit out a blast template that hits dead-on 33% of the time, and wounds on a 2+. Shotguns got better.

The real mitigation for Scouts is close combat. WS3 still alows you to hit MEQs on a 4+, and you retain the S4 from last edition. A scout gets three attacks on the charge when armed with pistol and combat blade. Sergeants retain the old statline, plus have a ton of weapon options.

Wound allocation rules now allow you to take mixed units of scouts to play wound allocation games. A mix of shotguns, bolters, and pistol/blade can annoy your opponent, and retain the best weapon for the job despite losses.

 

Just to wrap this up, I don't post this for the sake of venting against perceived evils of 5th--I'm just an old guy with an old army, and I'm struggling to make my way in the new codex. Thing is, if I can survive this compulsory stuff, I know the 5th ed codex rocks. Whirlwinds are still cheap & killy, Dreads can still rip it up, and surprise of surprises, the "combi-pred" I always favored is now the choice of champions!

 

Remember, our compulsory stuff actually wins games. A properly kitted and deployed tactical Squad is a toughnut to crack with the prevalence of cover in 5th, as well as the tried and true 3+ armor save.

[Fatuous]

There have been a lot of changes, but generally speaking, most are for the best, and add to the game play. So you should be able to fix up your old list to 5th ed fairly easily.

 

HQs: Libs are prob the most cost effective, and the hoods are really rather useful.

 

I do however really like my master of the forge. the servo harness adds quite a bit of fire power to an accompanying tactical squad, and while he is not a beast in CC, he will force your opponent to either target him to kill him (and stop the power fist attacks) in which case they focus less killing power on the tac squad, or focus on the tac squad in which case the MOF will do some damage.

 

not the most popular choice (i originally only took hiom for more dreads but love it now), but i like them. the re enforce ruins is nice too, expscially if ur putting some camo cloak scouts in em, but seriously increase survivability of devistators, etc... too.

 

as above, scouts and tacs are very different, so if you plan on taking scouts is to be cheaper marines, youwill be dissapointed. u need to max upgrade the sargents to really get the best out of them.

[Race Bannon]

ShinyRhino = hero. That's a great summary and analysis :P Well said.

[Ming]

Nice analysis!

 

Any 5th ed SM Codex list basically needs to start with 1 HQ and then 4 scoring units before moving on to other choices. 2/3rds of the units must have some kind of transport or mobility other than their feet. Every squad equivalent needs to have a role, and be equipped for that role. The overall army cannot be a hodgepodge mash up, it needs to have a synergistic function. The HQ needs to provide complementary enhancement to the force. 10-man and 5 man squads are the metric now. Weapons are more important than ever. A serious collector must have access to a good supply of combi-weapons and apply those where possible rather than spend precious points on things like rhino extra armor or meltabombs.

 

The 1500 pt list I used last night is a good 5th ed list example - not perfect, but good (it was built around a composition score rubric to get a "10").

 

Librarian Epistolary (null, avenger)

Tac Squad, 10, PF, MG, MM, Rhino

Tac Squad, 10, PF, MG, PC, Rhino

Tac Squad, 10, PF, MG, PC, Rhino

Tac Squad, 10, PW, FL, PC, Drop Pod

Vindicator

2x Speeders, MM/HF

Dev Squad, 5, 4xML

 

Going through the list vs my 5th ed rules of thumb for codex SMs:

HQ - 1, librarian, travels with the pod squad, helps take down opponent invulnerable saves, can kill MEQs with avenger.

Tac squads - 4, all have access to a powered weapon for cc, all have a weapon to take out light armor or better, all can kill MEQs or better.

Mobility - >66%.

Objective killers - the 2 speeders can last turn contest objectives.

 

Simple way to improve: Combiflamers or combimeltas on sergeants.

[mowglie]

In Fifth, Troops are king.

 

Any 5th ed SM Codex list basically needs to start with 1 HQ and then 4 scoring units before moving on to other choices.

 

Ooh, I'm really going to come down on the opposite side here. (unless of course you're counting two full tacsquads as 4 "scoring units", in which case feel free to ignore everything I'm about to say).

 

First, you can win any of the standard scenarios by tabling your opponent.

 

Second, there are five objectives in only 1/9th of your games. In 7/9ths there are 3 or fewer.

 

Third, any unit can contest - troops or not. Even with a single unit of troops you can win a 5-objective game.

 

I do agree that with the right approach tactical squads are far from the weakest troops in 5th.

 

I certainly do not agree that you need to take a HQ and 4 "before moving on to other choices". In fact, at 1,500 points I feel that even three full tactical squads is too many.

[Arikel]

If you are looking for an invulnerable savin', waste layin', butt kickin' and relatively cheap hq look no further than the Relic Blade captain. 130 points gets you the best non special character statline in the book, a 4+ invulnerable, and 3 str 6 attacks at ini 5.

 

As an extra bonus, he removes the complexity of special rules and psychic powers from your tactical decisions, which now consists of getting him stuck in and killing whatever needs killing.

[Zynk Kaladin]

If you are looking for an invulnerable savin', waste layin', butt kickin' and relatively cheap hq look no further than the Relic Blade captain. 130 points gets you the best non special character statline in the book, a 4+ invulnerable, and 3 str 6 attacks at ini 5.

 

As an extra bonus, he removes the complexity of special rules and psychic powers from your tactical decisions, which now consists of getting him stuck in and killing whatever needs killing.

 

To expand on this, for 10 extra points you can get that inv save to 3++ with a storm shield. The captain doesn't lose an attack with the SS because the Relic Blade already takes away the extra CCW attack and for only 10 more points the 130 point captain much more survivable.

 

He's a lot more expensive than other options, unfortunately, but in higher point games he's really worth it. He also allows you to get command squads :D

 

EDIT: my mistake its 15 extra points, not 10.

[Captain Idaho]

And to add to that point, for a mere 145pts you get the same combat potential plus a 3+ invulnerable save. This makes a Captain thus armed very difficult to get rid off when in a squad of Marines.

 

I think you need to get away from Space Marines characters being unstoppable killing machines in 40K. All of them, with only exceptions being special characters, are support units for another Marine unit. Chaplains increase the over all effectiveness of our units charging into assault, Librarians supply versatile capacity that can assist assault forces or shooting units, or even provide additional mobility, hamper opponents and psychic defence. Master's of the Forges are great shooting support, able to fire 2 weapons a turn with the Servo Harness. This can be 2 Plasma weapons potentially, or the flamer, or what ever combi-weapon you fancy. All these characters are useful in assaults in support of a squad of bodies to divide opponents attention a little.

 

Even Captains are support units. They form the solid core of whatever unit they are in, not adding much to the unit's effectiveness directly but just hardening the unit.

[Foolio_Displasius]

WOW. Thanks everyone for your replies! I am overawed by the sheer volume of advice. I also see why I've had trouble--I haven't properly wrapped my head around "force multiplier" and "troops are important." The former makes these 5th Ed HQ choices make a lot more sense. The latter... well, I still distrust expensive troops, but maybe I just need to learn this one the hard way. :)

 

Thank you again, and I have posted an updated army list idea here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=204497

[bystrom]

I have to agree with mowglie and disagree with Ming, kind of. Troops are king, but you don't need many of them. You still need them alive and kicking to win battles but you don't need a lot. Especially in lower points games. Sure, it can be harder to play for a win if your opponent just focuses everything on wiping out your troops, but that just means the rest of your army's probably destroying his army and you'll end up with a tie. I usually field one tactical squad with a rhino, then mix it up when it comes to my second troops choice. Another full tactical squad (and the obligatory HQ) brings total to around 550 pts, which is quite a lot for the 1000 pts games I play, so I switch the second tactical squad for cheap 5-man scout squad sometimes, bringing the total to around 400 pts with HQ included. I've also had problems with HQ as I don't have a librarian (yet), my captain doesn't seem to fit anywhere except with a command squad, which I usually don't field considering the around 500 pts I have left playing around with, so I'm usually fielding a chaplain with jump pack accompanying a small assault squad with flamer. Small and packs a punch.

[Fatuous]

If you are looking for an invulnerable savin', waste layin', butt kickin' and relatively cheap hq look no further than the Relic Blade captain. 130 points gets you the best non special character statline in the book, a 4+ invulnerable, and 3 str 6 attacks at ini 5.

 

As an extra bonus, he removes the complexity of special rules and psychic powers from your tactical decisions, which now consists of getting him stuck in and killing whatever needs killing.

 

For a cheap HQ (points and cash), this is pretty good.

 

Saves you points and you can use the captain from Black Reach at a pinch with minimal or no conversion (sure the bolter isnt the best option, but it isnt terrible if you add hellfires), and will get you started.

[FlameAnvil]

Get a Libby, best HQ for the cost- A power wepon that can Instant kill, 3+ save, and 2 amazing powers (only one per turn, at 100). As you chose your powers you have to decide, sit and wait....or take the fight to the xenos. Never take vortex if he is in a squad becuse of the chance you could blow up your squad.

 

Chaps are nice in small games, but wont do much if you sit him down on a obj with a squad.

 

? do you have any Lascannon's? They take out those pesky Crissis teams.

[chapter master 454]

Troops are important yes, but I personally only give them the minimal slots and give them standard stuff, heavy weapon, special, sarge with power weapon and melta bomb. However I am someone who hates dealing with troops, Objective based games end up being boring predictable events of where the fighting is going to be (and don't lie, you will always have a cluster :( assault over your objectives at some point). I mean I personally get along fine with just 2 troops, just idiots who can't keep them alive who say take 4! I don't need four if I use them correctly and give my opponent something else to shoot at.

 

One of my lists which I call 'Heavy mech' uses 3 troops and 3 land raiders. Ofcourse HQs and other stuff depends on codex (BA has 2 sanguin priests and tycho leading them while the vannila would have a captain and cronus in it). It comes down to how much AT my opponent has and so far 3 land raiders isn't something you can deal with easily unless you are extremely lucky. The only weapons I fear is anything str9 and over, meltaguns not so much because I know if I am in range then that means a fights near and if a fights near then that means the objectives near and the land raider has done it's job. The list contains 30 tacticals in total but only because I throw 20 at the enemy objective (or objectives) and 10 for my own home objective. Simple and easy. It does smack of a little cheese (not alot because everyone and their dog and their dogs pet cats cuddly toy takes melta/lance/str10/melta bombs/banannas in the exhausts/etc.) but it quite effective at what it does. 1750 list though so many could call me out and say it's more a high up list but to heck with it, I just hate having to deal with troops. Spearhead is a real mans game! (Everything scores, tanks going at it. Lets have a real battle of what we want to take and not what GW wants us to build en mass to make an effective army. 2-3 tacticals equals a land raider or more of money. Cunning ploy ain't it)

[ShinyRhino]

Troops are important yes, but I personally only give them the minimal slots and give them standard stuff, heavy weapon, special, sarge with power weapon and melta bomb. However I am someone who hates dealing with troops, Objective based games end up being boring predictable events of where the fighting is going to be (and don't lie, you will always have a cluster B) assault over your objectives at some point). I mean I personally get along fine with just 2 troops, just idiots who can't keep them alive who say take 4! I don't need four if I use them correctly and give my opponent something else to shoot at.

 

One of my lists which I call 'Heavy mech' uses 3 troops and 3 land raiders.

 

I like how you call people who take more than 2 troops selections idiots, then give an example of a list that you use that has three.

Objective-based games are 2/3 of Fifth Edition, learn it, live it, love it, dude.

[gettothegone]

I like how you call people who take more than 2 troops selections idiots, then give an example of a list that you use that has three.

 

I don't think he called people with 2 troop selections idiots.... I think he was referring to people who spam troops because they have a hard time managing to keep them alive.

 

Choice of wording wasn't all that hot, but I don't think that was what he was getting at.

[chapter master 454]

Please note his carefully cut out the rest of my post, ending it with only the evidence in his favour before I went onto how I used the troops. yes what i was implying that spamming (IE taking roughly 4 or more PURELY without anything else in truth backing them).

 

I however take 3 tacticals and 3 land raiders, thats more spamming land raiders than anything if I've seen it (unless you think thats me being moderate?).

 

I hate troops, the only reason I don't use two min scout squads is that I want the troops to do something at least, the scouts are just useless pieces of trash I just have run at the enemy as if I threatened them with signed books of the DoW trilogy by CS Goto. Not the best way to use them but they weren't brought because I wanted them, only brought because I need them to make my army legal. Grown out of that now. However anyone want a game of spearhead? (where troops don't eiffel toweringly matter).

[Zynk Kaladin]

Hey now, Space marine troops really aren't bad. Pretty much all units suck on their own without proper support and the right synergy with the rest of the army. I could field a landraider with 5 th/ss termies against a veteran player with enough experience to counter them and it would be like throwing bunnies in a meat grinder. What's this? Those scouts just outflanked using a LSS and meltabombed your raider? <_< *violins* I honestly think those raiders would have a tough time taking out 40+ MEQ in just a couple turns, aswell.

 

I do agree you don't NEED 4 troop choices, but other people have other play styles which makes more troops better in their army and overall plan. I'm sure much more people can offer up better examples than I can, but pretty much any unit can be extremely useful if used with the right army and the right tactics. Don't knock it just because you don't use/like it. I'll play a game of spearhead. Let me get my Landspeeders/LSS with scouts (troops). Like I said, playstyle.

[nurglez]

troops are king, but how many to take depends on your playing style and what your troops are like, i take 4 in 1500 points, but thats cos I run a plague marine themed force, and also plague marines are just damn tough.

 

To win an objective game you only need to control one more point then your enemy does.

 

anything str 8 or higher will deal with battlesuits nicely, as this will instant kill them. missiles, lascannons etc.

 

Also, a 10man tactical squad with special weapon, heavy weapon and sarge is very flexible, from having 2 10man squads you can split them to 4 scoring units if you so desire <_<

[Fatuous]

Can't agree less that scouts nor troops in general are trash. A tac squad specifically can be tooled up to tackle any thing that might get thrown at it. Melta, missile launcher, power fist and combi flamer, there is nothing that this sqaud can not tackle. But each to their own.