Greater Daemon

[Canadin]

I have recently come across a second-hand cool daemon model from LOTR. As I already have 2 daemon princes, I figured that I would make it into a greater daemon.

 

So, seeing as I have never used one before, I figured that I would ask around to see how others may have used this model. Its relatively cheap for it's stat-line (even including the champion you must sacrafice). I figured that I could insert it with any one of bikers, CSM, or chosen.

 

What has anyone else done for their greater daemons?

[Cornelias]

the biggest problem with greater daemons is mobility, with no wings they are next to useless unfortunately, also to be effective you need to have atleast 2-3 naked champs (if you leave just one champ naked he'll be targeted early leaving you the only option of popping a useful one) which means less fists in your force. a biker champ also pushes the cost up a bit.

 

it's a shame really as i think most people would like to include them but they really aren't worth compared to the cost of a daemon prince which has wings and performs better. i'd much prefer it if they were summoned by a sorc and had the option of taking wings.

[Brother Nihm]

Couldn't agree more.

 

it's a damn shame, my old GD model is collecting dust in the basement until such a time as they become viable again.

[Argon]

I've been toying with putting one into my list. Now that the whole "lack of wings" thing has been pointed out thanks to this thread, I think I might not.

 

For once, these powergamer threads actually helped me ;) .

[Dan The Deamon]

I tried to find a use for one out of stubbornness in the last couple of games i played. Two of the games i remember against mech guard i reserved everything and he spawned while nobody was on the table and therefor died.

 

Epic wast of points in those conditions.

 

I think he only ended up helping me out once against BA when they were in my face. I was left with the difficult choice of killing a powerfist in a tac squad or killing my havoc sgt with no fist, but a turn or two away from the fight. It didn't seem like a decision i wanted to make anymore so i stopped using him.

[Brother Nihm]

For once, these powergamer threads actually helped me :P.

Just because some of us are into unit analysis and field testing does not make us power gamers. ;)

 

In all seriousness, you're paying 1xx points for a unit that is slow and therefore has issues catching vehicles, enters play unreliably (you HAVE to place it when it becomes available and cannot possess the champion etc. of a unit that has entered from Reserves in the same turn), has a rather low catch-all invulnerable save (and no regular save) and doesn't even score.

 

It does nothing that a Prince cannot do better and has no unique abilities your army benefits from.

[Canadin]

well, it is 130ish points base and has 1 ups a daemon prince in CC power on a few stats. My main tactical use for him would be to sorta just stand in center-feild with my troops. But the lack of Flight does seem very annoying.

 

I shall test him next week in a few games and see if I can get him into CC turn 2/3 off my bikers. 148 points for a biker daemon prince would be a reasonable cost to me.... if I can make him reach CC turn 2/3.

[Zealot Of Chaos]

well, it is XXX points base (XXX+XX marine+XX champ) and has 1 ups a daemon prince in CC power on a few stats. My main tactical use for him would be to sorta just stand in center-feild with my troops. But the lack of Flight does seem very annoying.

 

I shall test him next week in a few games and see if I can get him into CC turn 2/3 off my bikers. XXX points for a biker daemon prince would be a reasonable cost to me.... if I can make him reach CC turn 2/3.

 

Not really my place to say but you're not allowed to put points costings in posts, might want to edit that one Canadin.

[Argon]

For once, these powergamer threads actually helped me :).

Just because some of us are into unit analysis and field testing does not make us power gamers. ;)

 

Bah. It's all the same to me. :P

[Canadin]

Oh, didnt know that. Is it that we can't quote the codex at all or something?

[Argon]

Oh, didnt know that. Is it that we can't quote the codex at all or something?

 

No, it's just that GW is very testy about people giving points costs for individual units or pieces of wargear. Obviously, we don't want to make GW angry.

[Canadin]

:), if GW gets angry at Chaos players... then they may never write the 5th ed codex!!!!!!

 

...or even scarier, they could get rehire gav thorpe and have him write it!!!!!

[meeper]

I tend to use him in smaller point games (1500 or less). Sure the naked champ is a dead giveaway (or at most I throw a combi flamer on him). But I have many other high value targets around the lone mounted CSM unit. Namely the two other rhinos carrying my bezerkers and Khârn :).

 

He is just as effective and more reliable than a purely CC dread and cant be targeted until he is summoned. If they happen to kill the rhino, and all 10 marines, then thats a hell of a lot of firepower not being directed at my other forces. Or if the unit is in danger of being wiped, ill just summon him then and there, at least he is cannon fodder.

[the jeske]

He is just as effective and more reliable than a purely CC dread and cant be targeted until he is summoned.

ok but being better then a dread in the chaos dex doesnt realy prove much . is he better then a defiler , that is actualy used sometimes ? nope. is he better then a second prince . nope. is it worth to scrap oblits or csm units to buy him . nope again.

[Possessed Marine]

have a bloodthirster model... mainly because I like the model... too bad he's not as bad@** as he's supposed to be otherwise I might just use it

[the jeske]

he is also not wysiwyg in a chaos sm army. he has wings .

[Cornelias]

he is also not wysiwyg in a chaos sm army. he has wings .

 

 

don't be ridiculous, he can be found under greater daemon on the GW website and in the codex entry the picture is even a bloodthirster ;)

 

you know sometimes what you say is correct (all be it without manners) jeske but then you have moments like this............

[David the Despoiler]

Just because a model has wings doesn't mean it can fly. The Possessed have wings modeled on their backpacks and under no circumstance can they fly. Fleet, yes. Fly, no.

[the jeske]

he is also not wysiwyg in a chaos sm army. he has wings .

 

 

don't be ridiculous, he can be found under greater daemon on the GW website and in the codex entry the picture is even a bloodthirster :D

 

you know sometimes what you say is correct (all be it without manners) jeske but then you have moments like this............

 

wings are an upgrade [not basic build in gear like we would like to think ] the GW FAQ tells us that they have to be modeled as wings to get the rules , so just like you cant take a lascanon armed dude and say it is a melta gun , you cant take wings and say they are not there . So if you have a DP with wings and a GD in the same army then one of those is not WYSIWYG[the GD as there is no such thing as a DP without wings] . So if the tournament is full WYSIWYG , then the GD "no named" represented by a counts as bloodthirster may get you minus composition points.

 

The Possessed have wings modeled on their backpacks and under no circumstance can they fly.

am not talking here about possessed rules , but if a models is WYSIWYG or not . Wings are an upgrade , not basic gear . If the are on two models in the same army with one model having them [like a DP or a lord] and another one having them modeled , but not having them bought one of the models is not wysiwyg.

It is like with NM sonic weapons . I take NM and lets say a 3.5 biker unit[bad unit] with modeled sonics . the bikers are not wysiwyg.

[Kythnos]

But the GD entry doesn't list wings as a possible upgrade, therefor they are no upgrade for him that can be mistaken (which is imho the point of the FAQ - to prevent misunderstandings if you actually choose to buy wings for a model). So you can go wild with your GD, as there are no upgrades that you can wrongly represent or irritate the enemie with - it'll always be the same crappy GD with no difference apart from maybe LOS. I don't see the point here in saying otherwise and would actually say, that you read it wrong for this case, jeske.

[Brother Nihm]

It is actually the case in some tournaments, two years back I was disqualified for using the old Chaos Furies as Lesser Daemons.

I never played there again.

[Kythnos]

It is actually the case in some tournaments, two years back I was disqualified for using the old Chaos Furies as Lesser Daemons.

I never played there again.

 

Seriously? Oo

I'm not a native english speaker, but the FAQ pretty much just says if you buy wings for a model, you have to represent them as such. Not that your models can only carry wings if they have this option in the rule and are bought for points. This is actually clearly missing the intention of the FAQ, at least for me. And WYSIWYG-wise it should be pretty clear, that wings outside of DPs, Lords and Sorcerers don't use the rules for wings, as they don't have the options for them, so it's just for the looks. We must be living in a pretty neat tournament bubble here in Germany, because I've never heard a story like that from any tournament here (except for jeskes story about the Orks with bolters instead of shootas, but that's also quite some time ago if I recall it right).

[Brother Nihm]

Yep seriously,

Take a look at this topic for more examples.

 

And this wasn't a negative comp score or anything, I was disqualified. :P

[Hellios]

It is actually the case in some tournaments, two years back I was disqualified for using the old Chaos Furies as Lesser Daemons.

I never played there again.

 

... but there are no generic lesser daemon models :< I play 1ksons... so when I take a greater daemon... for fluff the greatest waste of points ever (I have to sacrifice a sorcerer :'() I use the lord of change and my lesser daemons are a mix of horrors, flamers and screamers. Man what rule did they cite to get you DQ'ed? I would have gone ape *^%$!

[the jeske]

... but there are no generic lesser daemon models

but you can scratch build them or sculpt them on your own , then they are free game .

 

 

 

Not that your models can only carry wings if they have this option in the rule and are bought for points.

You have to take an HQ in an army right ? true. chaos HQs without wings do not exist , right ? true again . Blood thirster has wings , just like a demon prince has wings ? right . Same looking gear cant represent two different thing in a single army [you cant have bolters being bolters in one unit and being sonic blasters in the other] ? right. Ergo a bloodthirster with wings is not wysiwyg , that is even without in to getting the whole counts as thing [because an actual blood thirster in w40k does exist and it has different rules from a GD] .

 

 

We must be living in a pretty neat tournament bubble here in Germany, because I've never heard a story like that from any tournament here

I got almost DQed in berlin in 2007 because my nids were painted as leviathan and not behemoth[and I was of course runing MC list].

 

 

But the GD entry doesn't list wings as a possible upgrade, therefor they are no upgrade for him that can be mistaken (which is imho the point of the FAQ - to prevent misunderstandings if you actually choose to buy wings for a model).

taht is false . Counts as does not work like that. If it did sonic armed havocks/dreads/C or tank would be still full wysiwyg [because those units dont have the options to buy those upgrades anymore just like the GD cant haev wings] . But they are not . It was the main concernt and probably one of the two main reasons for EC players leaving the game en mass[that + their army not working anymore].