13th Company Project

[Firenze]

The 13th Company Codex Project is begining to slow majorly. If anyone can help us by commenting on the work we have done as of yet on units, rules and other flim flam, it will be greatly appreciated.

 

Please guys, we need input and we're running out of it. Thank you for reading, Russ bless you.

[Niiai]

As mutch as I think it is cool, and it really is, I have a had time using a codex that is not official.

 

It is not that it would not be well ballanced, but people would complain if I bought a codex that was not official. And with all the work that it is to buy, glue, file and paint I will not collext something that I could not use.

 

That being said if I really wanted to use the 13th company I would use the blood angels.

 

I read though you prodject and it eally looks cool but I have no connection with the 13 company. I also think that there is a gap between macking a 5th edition vesion when the old is based on the 3rd edition codex. For instance the rune priest is no longer an IC.

 

Just my my thoughts on the subject, but keep up the good work.

[Skirax]

I'll help with rules development. Besides, I had a decent (And balanced) idea for a 'Wulfen Pack Leader'

[Grey Mage]

I read though you prodject and it eally looks cool but I have no connection with the 13 company. I also think that there is a gap between macking a 5th edition vesion when the old is based on the 3rd edition codex. For instance the rune priest is no longer an IC.

 

Just my my thoughts on the subject, but keep up the good work.

The Rune Priest is an IC, and an HQ choice, just like he was in the EOT codex.

[Adarul Greystalker]

I was really excited about the 13th Company project and tried to help out with it. Unfortunately, I felt that my ideas were not really considered seriously. I understand that there were a lot of people throwing a lot of ideas around early on in the project and that some people were bound to be ignored. I'm not angry or bitter about it, but the result of this was that the project moved in a direction that I didn't like. The original codex that was posted in the project thread was very cool and testing by myself and others showed that it was mostly balanced. Now, most of the units that I liked have been dropped from the codex and my ideas have apparently been ignored. I'm going to need some convincing before I come back to the project.

 

What I think is needed for the 13th Company project to get back on track is two things: We need a clear mission statement and an obvious decision-making process.

 

We need to know what the objective is for this codex. Some want a barely-changed copy of the old 13th Company that has only a few changes that update old rules to 5th edition standards. Others want a new-feeling codex that uses new kinds of units that feel like 13th Company style units or seem like the 13th Company would use them or have access to them. There is, of course, a lot of area in between as well, and we need to know where we're aiming so that people will know what to expect and know what kinds of ideas will be considered and what kind of arguments should be made to justify the inclusion or alteration of a unit.

 

Regarding decision making, we need a visible process that allows us to see that our ideas are being considered and how the ultimate decision is arrived at. When someone has an interesting idea or provides intelligent commentary, involve that person in the decision-making process, or at the very least, make that process transparent by explaining what ideas you considered and how. This way, people who make an effort to improve the codex project will see that their efforts are appreciated instead of feeling ignored, as though the project is simply leaving them behind.

[Grey Mage]

Wich units are you talking about? To my knowledge weve dropped the ideas for two units entirely- scout bikers and dreadnaughts.

 

Wolf Gaurd have been under consideration off and on, but it seems a point of contention- in no small part because some people have the odd impression that Stormclaws are Wolf Gaurd.

[hmk17]

I've got some time. I'll look at it.

[Thunderhawk3015]

I'll dig up my old Eye of Terror book then have a go at it in the next week or 2

[Adarul Greystalker]

The main unit that I was sad to see dropped was the scouts. Scout bikers would be cool, and I've always wished that we had them in our 5th edition codex, but I understand not implementing them because space wolf scout bikers don't currently exist (even though they would make sense for 13th Company imo). Wolf scouts, wolf guard, and thunderwolf cavalry are all gone from the "codex as it stands" thread, and storm claws are no longer troops. Those changes greatly reduced the number of interesting lists that are possible with the codex in my opinion and are the main changes that made me feel that the project was moving away from what I wanted.

[whitewolfmxc]

Sadly , most people just want a copy and paste old codex , and has zero tolerance on new things

[Grey Mage]

The main unit that I was sad to see dropped was the scouts. Scout bikers would be cool, and I've always wished that we had them in our 5th edition codex, but I understand not implementing them because space wolf scout bikers don't currently exist (even though they would make sense for 13th Company imo). Wolf scouts, wolf guard, and thunderwolf cavalry are all gone from the "codex as it stands" thread, and storm claws are no longer troops. Those changes greatly reduced the number of interesting lists that are possible with the codex in my opinion and are the main changes that made me feel that the project was moving away from what I wanted.

To be honest, I wanted WG, TWC, and SCs as troops, but the consensus seemed otherwise.

 

I find it particularly upsetting that many who argued that side are now gone from the project, stating that we were over ambitious.

[Firenze]

Yeah, we're over ambititious. So what? It will be a great codex. I have tested it during a game with proxying, using the ideas GM had (TWC, SC as troops) and it worked. But it worked without them (im a ranged player :(). It just means we need playtesting still.

[Niiai]

I read though you prodject and it eally looks cool but I have no connection with the 13 company. I also think that there is a gap between macking a 5th edition vesion when the old is based on the 3rd edition codex. For instance the rune priest is no longer an IC.

 

Just my my thoughts on the subject, but keep up the good work.

The Rune Priest is an IC, and an HQ choice, just like he was in the EOT codex.

 

Sorry. Iron Priest. B)

[stinkenheim]

I browsed and made some comments a while back.

It just seemed to me that most of the time people started with an idea they thought was hard, then tried to add in a ridiculous amount of special rules to make them even harder.

There were plenty of comments like 'well BA/Nids/IG etc have this, so if we put X in it'll beat them'

Then things like trying to make LFs Bs 5. There was no need, it was simply that people still complain they are vulnerable to incoming fire so wanted to maximise their chances of damaging a vehicle in one turn. To me that isn't the way to go with making a new fandex. It needs to be balanced at times underpowered. Also any tweaks should be considered and only impleneted if there is a need for it not just because it would look cool.

I may poke my head back in, but i doubt it. Its hard to stay entusiastic with somethig like that when there was no clear indication of what was being attempted (update or new dex for example).

It was also difficult when some of the people in the project were very single minded and stubborn when they had an idea and would accept little or no critique on it.

still, things might have changed now so if i get some free time i'll check it out.

[Skirax]

Yeah, we're over ambititious. So what? It will be a great codex. I have tested it during a game with proxying, using the ideas GM had (TWC, SC as troops) and it worked. But it worked without them (im a ranged player B)). It just means we need playtesting still.

You say that you're a ranged player, but that's not really what 13th Company is meant to be, is it? I realise that, game wise, you want a balanced 'dex that doesn't bottleneck your options, but you can have a specialised dex that adapts as well.

[Valerian]

The problem with attempting a group project like this is that everyone has their own vision for what a 5th Edition version of the 13th Company Codex should be. For some, the project will progress on a track that they really like, and are comfortable with; for others, however, they'll see the project as going in the completely wrong direction. I saw the exact same thing happening with the Inquisition Project, organized by 7eAL. Trying to participate in these projects can become extremely frustrating, so eventually I decided to just go it alone and make a Fandex myself. I incorporated many of the ideas that others had provided to 7eAL's project, added my own, and produced something that I was personally happy with. Afterward, I provided it to both the Homegrown Rules subforum and the Ordos Inquisition subforum for comments and feedback; I got some great feedback in both threads, and made a few minor adjustments based on some of the input received. Because I didn't try the "codex-by-committee" process, I was able to develop a product that was well-balanced, effective, stayed true to the background material, and was aligned with my vision for what a Grey Knights codex for 5th Edition should look like. The result was a document that was very well received, with no major criticisms.

 

To make the 13th Company codex pallatable to the most players (and opponents), I recommend that you make it your goal to simply "update" the 3rd Edition EOT version to fit with the design scheme of the modern codices. Don't make broad, sweeping changes, or add more than one or two units that weren't there before. You want readers to be comfortable with what you've made, so lean toward appeasing the conservative, rather than making it completely new and unfamiliar. Make it something that you would want to play with, but more importantly, make it something that you would want to play against. Your opponents should enjoy playing your unique Fandex army, not dread it.

 

Best regards,

 

Valerian

[Niiai]

stinkenheim you talketabout bottleneck. Well it was an under codex from the regular codex, by defenition it should be bottlenecked.

 

It is spacewolves who use no mech at all, but have a knack for teleporting. I never played the old one, I just read a resume and aparantly they could runn alott (but so can moast armies now, something they could not do back in 3rd edition. 5th edition intrudes the runn rule.)

 

As I understood it is was up there along with an full Kroot army and a full genestealer army (the genestealer army being a nod to the old days before genestealers and tyranids where joined together to be one and the same army.)

 

I personaly think the 13th codex should be an update of the old and not something new because then you do not have anything to aim after. From what I remember reading I liked the idea that you could have fenrisian wolves in regular squads to soak up damadge for cheap points (sorta like black templars.)

[rodgambit]

I play 13th company and as much as I would love to just tweak the original rules to go with 5th edition, I just can't play a non official codex in good conscious. What I've done is use elements of the new wolf dex that I feel fit the theme. TWC made from wulfen, rune gates/portals built to represent drop pods, wolf scouts to include the outflanking element and grey hunters as grey slayers and wolf pack units as stormclaws. It isn't perfect but its fun and fluffy and I still find it competitive. I've played 4 games with my current non mech 13th list and I'm 4-0. I've played a mixed eldar army, a foot guard line, an outflanking guard army with vendettas and finally, Ultramarines.

[SamaNagol]

I see zero reason why TWC shouldn't be included, personally. Maybe not as troops, seeing as there were never any FA options outside of Wolves and Bikes anyway.

[Natanael]

I'll have a look if I get the time. Do you have some kind of PDF or something that is availible for download? That makes it a lot easier to go trough the rules, build some lists and see what is broken and what is good.

 

I hope you guys keep doing this, 'cause I'd really like to try the finished product against a few friends of mine. Great work so far, from what I have seen.

 

- Natanael

[Valerian]

The 13th Company Codex Project is begining to slow majorly. If anyone can help us by commenting on the work we have done as of yet on units, rules and other flim flam, it will be greatly appreciated.

 

Please guys, we need input and we're running out of it. Thank you for reading, Russ bless you.

 

Firenze,

 

I've looked through as much as I could, but it really seems to be growing into something new and unfamiliar. Instead of just a revamp of the old EOT army list, to bring the 13th Company in line with 5th Edition, it looks like a completely new thing with all kinds of new powers, special abilities, and special rules. I am of the opinion that a few modest changes would be much more acceptable to anyone willing to play against a Fandex. When you start getting very liberal with what goes into it, then it tends to lean toward the over-powered/unbalanced.

 

Here is what I'd do, more or less:

 

Army Special Rules

 

Leaders of the Pack

And They Shall Know No Fear

Acute Senses

Counter-Attack

Move Through Cover

Scouts

 

Sagas

 

Same as Codex Space Wolves with addition of Saga of the Wulfen King (35 points) - Available to a Wolf Lord only, gives him +d3 Attacks and allows him to take Wulfen Packs as Troops.

 

Psychic Powers

 

Same as Codex Space Wolves with the addition of The Gate - On a successful Psychic test, the Rune Priest can use the power at the start of the Movement phase instead of moving normally. The Rune Priest and up to one squad of Grey Slayers, Storm Claws, or Long Fangs within 6" of him is removed from the tabletop and then immediately placed anywhere on the tabletop using the Deep Strike rules. The Gate may be used even if enemy models are in base contact with the Rune Priest or any of the squad that move with him (the enemy models are left behind).

 

HQ

Wolf Lord - same as C:SW, except cannot take a Jump Pack or Bike. Has access to Saga of the Wulfen King (35 points) in addition to others.

 

Rune Lord - same as C:SW Rune Priest, except +1 to both Ballistic Skill and Attacks. Cannot take Jump Pack or Bike. Cost 115 points base.

 

Warden of the Lost - same as C:SW Wolf Priest, except +1 to both Ballistic Skill and Attacks. Cannot take Jump Pack or Bike. Costs 115 points base. If attached to a Wulfen Pack, the Warden of the Lost gains their Fleet unit special rule.

 

Elites

 

Wulfen Pack - Cost 30 points per model (maybe 35). Same stat-line as C:EOT 13th Company list. Unit special rules are Rage and Fleet; attacks are Rending. Only a Warden of the Lost or a Wolf Lord with the Saga of the Wulfen King may join a Wulfen Pack unit.

 

Storm Claws Pack - Cost 25 points per model. Same stat-line and Wargear as C:EOT. Unit special rules are Berserk Charge (same as C:SW for Blood Claws). Same upgrade options as before, except Power Weapons +15 points each, and Power Fists are +25 points each. One Storm Claw may be upgraded to a Storm Claw Pack Leader for +10 points, giving the model +1 to his Attack characteristic and access to the same Weapons and Wargear options as those for a C:SW Wolf Guard, except the Storm Claw Pack Leader may not select a Jump Pack or Bike, or any of the Terminator Heavy Weapons (i.e. no Assault Cannon, Cyclone Missile Launcher, or Heavy Flamer).

 

Lone Wolf - same as C:SW. Costs 25 points.

 

Troops

 

Grey Slayer Pack - Cost 20 points per model. Same stat-line as C:EOT. Same Wargear as C:SW Grey Hunters Pack. Same unit upgrade options as C:SW Grey Hunters Pack. One Grey Slayer may be upgraded to a Grey Slayer Pack Leader for +10 points, giving the model +1 to his Attack characteristic and access to the same Weapons and Wargear options as those for a C:SW Wolf Guard, except the Grey Slayer Pack Leader may not select a Jump Pack or Bike, or any of the Terminator Heavy Weapons (i.e. no Assault Cannon, Cyclone Missile Launcher, or Heavy Flamer).

 

Fast Attack

 

Fenrisian Wolf Pack - Cost 10 points per model. Same as C:SW, but with no upgrade option to Cyberwolf.

 

Thunderwolf Cavalry - Cost 50 points per model. Same as C:SW.

 

Heavy Support

 

13th Company Long Fangs Pack - Cost 15 points per model. Same as C:SW, except all models have 2 Attacks in their base profile.

 

And that is it. Simple, effective, elite predators, that still look like, play like, and feel like the old 13th Company list.

 

Best regards,

 

Valerian

[Adarul Greystalker]

Many people are dissatisfied that there's too much "new" in the 13th Company Codex project. At the same time, many other people are dissatisfied that certain new units have not been included. These two arguments are contradictory, but at the same time, they're both right in their own ways. Like puritans and radicals (to use an Inquisition metaphor), we aren't likely to agree on a finished product ;)

 

It's highly unlikely that we would be able to produce a codex that could satisfy those who want a simple update of the Eye of Terror list as well as those who want a new version of the 13th Company. Instead, proceeding with the project as it is would likely either cater to one group while alienating the other or attempt to appease both and end up with a confused codex that satisfies no one.

 

Instead, I propose that the 13th Company codex project be split into two sections: First, we should attempt to produce a simple update to the Eye of Terror list that works for 5th edition. This would be the codex core, to be augmented by a separate, optional supplement that would include several new units, sagas, and other additional content consistent with the 13th Company's character and unique style of warfare.

 

The core codex would be a stand-alone document that the old school "puritans" can be happy with, while the "radicals" can get all of the new and interesting things that they want with the supplement. Thoughts?

[Grey Mage]

If you dont want to use the new stuff, you dont have to.