Predator-joe Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 ok, so I've really like the whole idea of an iron warriors army but im not too sure what codex i would use The three main ones that i prefer are: codex: chaos space marines codex: space marines codex: space wolves all three havd advantages and disadvantages and im gonna go through all three of them with my opinions (as im the one wanting to get them :( ) So lets start with chaos space marines. Advantages: They are chaos specialist troops obliterators defilers can have vindicators abbadon daemon prince Disadvantages: not updated some units quite expensive effective armies cant really be fluff based dont want to go with all oblits to make it effective What i would use if i used this codex and what they would count as: Lord: commander, covert into a warsmith Prince: part dread, part deamon (check steel brethren) Dreads: nice and fluffy for iron warriors and the forge world dreads look amazing Termies: heavy assault troops, combi weapons Marines: core troops, can have two assault weapons Bezerkers: assault troops, iron warriors commonly use them Noise: used as iron warriors with special weaponry (their always inventing new ways to kill stuff) Plague: bionic enhancements Sons: shield generators and specialised weaponry Raptors and bikes: fast assault units, vanguard of army Vindie: siege units Defiler: siege units Land raider: obviously Oblits: amazing, iron warrior fluff and its best Havocs: heavy support, used to cover assault troops Special character i would/could use Despoiler: one of the best HQ units, cool conversion (check steel brethren) overall chaos are an effective army but i think they need an update to better suit the legions (like combat tactics when you include certain characters but aimed towards the legions) Next codex is space marines. Advantages: Techmarines and their stuff (master of forge, big cannons etc) combat tactics cool special characters lots of vehicles some cool troops (sternguard) can have good army lists which are all rounders Disadvantages: most troops too generalised in a specific field very common to see (although they will be converted to look like chaos) can become quite expensive no obliterators There may be more for both sides but cant think of any at the moment so onto what i would use Master of forge: commander/warsmith on his own looks amazing conversion beam and on bike even better (check bell of lost souls for a pre-heresy converion) servitors are great and scout bikes can be tech troop body guard Stern guard: special ammo and combi weaponry. elite troops to bolster fire power Termies: heavy assault troops Dreads: cool, with lots of weaponry to choose from and no random table chart Ironclad: even better, more iron warrior dread Scouts: recon, sappers, or tech troopers as bodyguard Tactical: core units Assault: advance assault units Bikes: out riders, plus attack bikes Vindies: siege Land raider: obviously, plus variants Devastators: havocs whirlwind: long range suppression unit Thunderfire: same as whirlwind but cooler Special character i would/could use Vulken: good all rounder plus gives twin linked weaponry to seige weapons (flamer, hammer and melta) Final codex is space wolves Advantages: assault troops but also all rounders Bjorn lots of special weaponry best heavy support troops (long fangs) wolf guard good scouts newest codex out of the three Disadvantages: better units are too expensive (thunder wolves) plus some are hard to fit in, need alot of conversionw ork which i aint good at no obliterators need to make them look like wolves and iron warriors (iron wolves i made a DIY force a while back) not too sure it would work on the table top So what i would use etc Blood claws: trench assaulters, newly inducted and inexperienced Grey hunters: support troops, experienced. Used to bolster the blood claws with firepower Scouts: trench specialists: coming from enemy boarder edges with lots of melta bombs and a flamer seems about right. Wolf guard: chosen, used to add experience on siege to other squads and to bolster the fire power (like a termie with assault cannon) Terminators: heavy assault troops Long Fangs: havocs (you know the rest) Vindicator: the ideal tank for siege Whirlwind: long range suppression unit prior to an assault. Land raider: why not Dreads: the iron warrior dreads from forgeworld are amazing and they are better than chaos dreads, used as support or spearhead Iron Priest: are the iron warrior techs Wolf lord or pack leader: well a cheap HQ unit in all respects. Special characters Logan: tactician in siege warfare (tank hunters) Bjorn: an uber dread, why else. use the part dread part daemon idea So overall i think all three codex are major contenders. I didnt pick blood angels as i think they are more on the khorne side of things and fast vehicles dont really suit iron warriors. so what do we have then. well all three can be converted (plus the vehicles) to look like an iron warriors army with a variety of deadly machines to use from and converted up troops but i seem to be more joined with the codex space marines for the following reasons master of the forge conversion beamer on bike iron clad dreads servitors sternguard scouts scout bikes, grenade launchers are pretty cool as well thunder fire cannon and vulkan would be a nice character to use and opens up conversion ideas i would miss the obliterators and the dread daemon prince to count as a prince or bjorn but i would get over it (eventually :P ) im not here to make the most effective tourny force (althoug i do want an army that will work well) i prefer to make an outstanding and above all, fluffy army so what do you all think of this. What would be your preferred codex and why? conversion ideas? And just personal views Thanks for reading and remember, its about fun not winning (well not always :tu: ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 but i seem to be more joined with the codex space marines for the following reasonsmaster of the forge conversion beamer on bike iron clad dreads servitors sternguard scouts scout bikes, grenade launchers are pretty cool as well thunder fire cannon and vulkan would be a nice character to use and opens up conversion ideas Half of that is not really fitting for Iron Warriors at all, while with the other half one might expect that the Iron Warriors could have something like that, but untill now they never did in any official army list. There is only one Codex that properly represents an Iron Warriors force. And you don't even need cult units or daemon princes to be competetive. Marine pleayers will tell you that laser cannons, missile launchers, chainswords and power fists will get the job done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predator-joe Posted June 19, 2010 Author Share Posted June 19, 2010 Hey Legatus i thought representing them as certain aspects of a seige army would seem fitting with all the crazy weaponry and machinery they ues I was thinking of having sternguard as basically normal troopers which have been gifted with destructive weaponry (used like choosen from the chaos codex) i think you would be right about the scouts though, it seems they are more renegades of the titanicus than iron warriors although they do tend to be loyal allies to one another the iron clad i thought would be the perfect seige unit for iron warriors and could be represented in a number of cool ways (they could be just destructive defiler looking machines that could be counted as iron clads master of the forge with a big gun of pure destruction has to be something a mad iron warriors warsmith would want to do B) the thunderfire cannon could be represented as long range artillery but converted to look like chaos, i know in any seige you need to soften them up with alot of ranged fire power i dont know, all these ideas seems to work but is it what you would describe a a iron warriors seige force the scouts (count as tech troops) could be simply foot troops for the renegade titan legions or something if i were to use them but they can be ignored. or i could could go with the tech troops being the bulk of the force which are supported by iron warrior seige specialists Lots of ideas are now flooding into my head *evil laughter* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitefireinferno Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 Why not just use the fluffy codex for your army EG C:CSM because you know there Chaos and the like. Plus you dont really need to spen the first half an hour before the game making sure your opponent knows what everything is. Plus Oblits and Defilers and just give your lord a powerfist and a bolter or some such and model the Powerfist as a Servo Arm there simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 Marine pleayers will tell you that laser cannons, missile launchers, chainswords and power fists will get the job done. when you have ATSKNF , combat tactics , and special characters that buff you + more then one viable support option and actual working options in elite and FA slots. yeah . then it "works ". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 Why not just use the fluffy codex for your army EG C:CSM because you know there Chaos and the like. Plus you dont really need to spen the first half an hour before the game making sure your opponent knows what everything is. Plus Oblits and Defilers and just give your lord a powerfist and a bolter or some such and model the Powerfist as a Servo Arm there simple. You shouldn't need to really explain most of the stuff if you just say you are playing space marines... a MotF is obviously that or a techmarine (depending on what he is equipped like) regardless of what paint he has on his armour... dreads are dreads and again load-out seems to give that away... if I see what looks like a sorcerer running around in a space marine army that looks like iron warriors... a libby would be my bet. Sternguard (chosen) wouldn't need to have any more attention drawn to them than it takes to tell people they aren't tactical marines in an Ultramarine army. I admit however oblits and defilers are cool for iron warriors... as for using the fluffy dex... didn't you hear they replaced the 3.5dex with 4th ed dex... I'm also happy to count the old Slaves of Darkness and all those other really old books ad the fluffy dex... but they would need a lot of updating. Hah as soon as I read your post (@OP) I was going to put waiting for legatus but he has already posted... as you are playing Iron Warriors however the CSM codex isn't bad... They do have Daemon princes... and that is the HQ of choice of strong lists... For troops... you have a few berzerkers and CSM (which while some would say berzerkers and plague marines are better, CSMs are by no means uncompetative)... oh and rhinos... You then have your HS... Oblits anyone? pretty much anything else is a bonus... Codex CSM actually works pretty well for Iron Warriors even if it hasn't got all the options of the 3.5 dex... and everyone misses 9 oblits and 4 heavy support choices... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 when you have ATSKNF , combat tactics , and special characters that buff you Icons of Chaos glory and ultra-grip have their own advantages. And how chicken does one have to be to only play with armies based on special characters? :( I am just too hardcore for that I guess. :P But then I come from an era where "special characters" were only useable in friendly pre-agreed scenarios, not in generic games or toutnaments, so they still have that "power gamey" feel to me. + more then one viable support option and actual working options in elite and FA slots. yeah . then it "works ". I still keep shaking my head in disbelief whenever I read statements like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 Icons of Chaos glory and ultra-grip have their own advantages. And how chicken does one have to be to only play with armies based on special characters? :) I am just too hardcore for that I guess. :) But then I come from an era where "special characters" were only useable in friendly pre-agreed scenarios, not in generic games or toutnaments, so they still have that "power gamey" feel to me. I used to think special characters were cool when they popped out for a game... now I think heh Vulkan 4 times in a row... 3 more times and I beat my record of games played against vulkan in a row... IMO they shouldn't have made characters count as... my main army is Ulthwé and I hardly ever took 'he who must not be named' but now he appears in half the eldar armies I see... and most of those are not Ulthwé... and the arguement that it isn't fair you get extra characters because your painted blue (Ultramarines) is rubbish because for being painted red, green or black you get an entire codex... Special characters should be, rare and unique and no in every game... I feel if they made HQ choices more adaptable... they might be able to solve this... Oh and don't get me started on character based army traits... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David'Berzerker'Bowers Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 Just thought I'd offer a potential compromise (which may or may not work for your purposes): I assume that, like most other Iron Warriors players (myself included), it is your intention that your army collection eventually grow into something "Apocalypse-sized" (i.e., 3000+ points of forces), thus being more representative of the full fighting strength of an Iron Warriors "Grand Company", right? Well, according to the "fluff", Iron Warriors Grand Companies have a tendency to organize their various component units into groups of "threes" - take, for example, the Warsmith's Grand Company from the Black Library novel, Storm of Iron (a must-read for ANY Iron Warriors player!). The Warsmith had three different "War-Captains", or "Champions" - Forrix, Kroeger, and Honsu - each of whom commanded his own Company of Iron Warriors within the larger Grand Company. Forrix's Company, which included lots of Terminators and Land Raiders (and, I believe, quite a few Vindicator Siege Tanks too) were the "siege" specialists. Kroeger's Company (which included numerous Khorne Berzerker Squads, and, if I remember correctly, a significant number of Chaos Dreadnoughts as well) were (obviously) the "assault" specialists. Honsu's Company seemed to be more of a multi-role "battle" force, without any apparent area of specialization (which included Chosen Squads for "infiltration" missions, Havoc Squads for heavy fire support, and so forth). With these sort of factors in mind, might I then put forward the suggestion that you utilize ALL THREE Codexes that you mentioned (CSM, Space Wolves, and Space Marines) in order to make THREE individual Iron Warriors Companies, each of whom could be considered but one part of your larger, "Apocalypse-sized" Grand Company? I offer this suggestion because I myself happen to be organizing/building/painting my own Iron Warriors Grand Company in a similar fashion, as three individual "specialized" Companies (albeit I am using only the Chaos Space Marines Codex to design all three Companies), each with its own "War-Captain" (a "counts-as" Abaddon the Despoiler, a "counts-as" Khârn the Betrayer, and a "counts-as" Huron Blackheart), all of whom serve the Grand Company's Commander, a "Daemon Warsmith". For your purposes, you could use the Chaos Space Marines Codex to represent a "Siege" Company; the Space Wolves Codex to represent an "Assault" Company; and the Space Marines Codex to represent a multi-role, or "Battle" Company. Doing this would provide a most desirable "variety" of potential "specialized" units for each individual Company, while still allowing each Company to be designed (one would hope...) in a "competitive" fashion. And, of course, all three Companies could all be combined together in an Apocalypse game as the full "Grand Company". Just my two cents... http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff118/bowersdavidb/IW%204th%20GC%20Sig%20Photos/IW4thGCSig-450x191.jpg IRON WITHIN! IRON WITHOUT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predator-joe Posted June 19, 2010 Author Share Posted June 19, 2010 ok response time all of your points are amazing and i would like to take them all into account first of all may i say thanks for the responses, they have been really helpful if i do choose the chaos dex it will be my first one ever but i know most of it anyway now for what to decide i think the idea of having all three is just outstanding (and damn expensive) i would love to do this and maybe over time i will but the money idea is just OMG thinking about this i have alot of minis that i dont use any more and am starting to sell them all. I will probs end up with one or two armies of the original like dozen armies before (they were all around 2000-3000pts) so the money could go to this one. Hopefully some stuff i mentioned were just because they popped in my head such as the special character thing and probably will design my own characters based around HQ's For what would count as will probably be easy to spot just as Hellios said well at the end of the day it is what codex to pick and well the answer is.... :) ALL THREE *EXTREMELY EVIL LAUGHTER* :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted June 20, 2010 Share Posted June 20, 2010 Hmm, while I understand your desire to use shiny 'dexes, it really doesn't make much sense in this case. While the SM codex can make a believable IW army, you would be forced to exclude things like assault cannons and land speeders and would have no access to fluffy options like oblits. The Wolf codex is completely unsuitable in my opinion as IW are methodical and calculating and not crazy ax men. Yes there are some breach takers that are a bit unhinged, but these are the exception and not the rule, so a single squad of berzerkers represents them just fine. Even if you did want to make an "assault company" which may or may not actually exist as such a thing has never been mentioned explicitly, even in Storm of Iron, you would still be much closer to the mark by taking a Chaos army with Icons of Khorne and some 'zerks than a Space Wolf army because Iron Warriors are not Space Wolves and chapter codices are very specifically adapted to those particular chapters. Honestly sometimes I feel like Walter in The Big Lebowski, "there are rules!" <_< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven1 Posted June 20, 2010 Share Posted June 20, 2010 I would go with the Chaos codex 1) Iron Warriors are aligned with Chaos 2) the loyalist dogs are not aligned with Chaos 3)Obliterators 4) you can make a perfectly good list from Codex: CSM despite the best efforts of Jervis to mess it up 5) Obliterators 6) Cult Troops Berserkers and plague marines (plus with a little creative converting you it will be fluffy or don't convert and nobody cares) 7)Chaos Space Marines Arguably the best basic troops choice in the game 8)Obliterators 9)Abaddon (arguably the best special character in the game see what a did there with the groups of threes :no: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Duck Posted June 20, 2010 Share Posted June 20, 2010 I think your chaos marine plan is the better of the bunch, but not due to the 'its proper chaos', more due to the fact you've readily identified ways to use all the different troop types as specialist. Personally i've been quite impressed and inspired by that. My nurgle army has a contingent of Iron Warriors, in my case they represent the Havocs (naturally), but also i use them as the Chosen which i deploy in 5 man 'special weapon' squads. For me the combination of infiltrating and specialist war gear is very 'iron warrior' That said, your space marine based army list seems to be well backed up too and i can understand why that would be a strong consideration. The space wolf option does strike me as the weaker of the 3 options, and i sense there its a bit more a case of 'getting around' the rules rather than seizing 'fluff' opportunities. For me i'd go for the good old chaos codex, the obliterators and choosen give you more depth than simply being able to add a techmarine and thunderfire. However for me the clincher is that you've got a good way of having 5 different troops each of which is well backed up with your own fluff. Its very 'iron warrior' and its also a very good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predator-joe Posted June 20, 2010 Author Share Posted June 20, 2010 hi all again, thanks for feedback for using the different codex's it was mainly to think of alterations to what an iron warriors force could consist of. In the 41st millennium pretty much anything can be achieved. I was thinking of slight alterations in the way a siege force would react to achieve its goals: the chaos codex would obviously have the greatest variety as it has a mix of everything an iron warrior could want. We can construct daemon princes make lords and sergeants with serv arms to seem more mechanical. While they do have the vehicles to use for siege and heavy mech assaults with many ideas for converting. Well and not let us forget the obliterators, most likely the best heavy support for chaos in my opinion. For the space marine codex it was more along the lines of specialised weaponry that would be used along the battle lines such as the conversion beamer, special bolt guns and thunder fire cannons. Plus the reason of having lots of tech marines and heavily converted dreads. Someone said that these codex's would be restricted with what could be used such as land speeders out of the question, but i think a good constructed army can be made just by basing it around the key units that would seem fitting for a siege type army. the space wolf codex was hard to think about and yes people can argue that it doesnt seem fitting and that they are to feral but they can be viewed differently. unlike blood angels it is not an assault army as people may think, yes it has got heavy hitters but so does the chaos codex. the main point is that it is adept to close range fire fights which you would see along trenches or in a mighty fortress about to crack open. The space wolves also have a clever way of using chaos chosen through the wolf guard. These individuals can be used as leaders or lieutenants or something. they would add their knowledge to the lesser squads to help them in these fire fights that occur. A nice example being a termie with an assault cannon or even just a normal guy with a fist and combi melta to help crack open enemy bunkers. Another cool idea would to have Bjorn as a giant oblitorator, now that would be cool For the use of having three different forces is a great idea but they dont have to be categorised in the way of Assault, siege specialists and general. It can be constructed in a number of ways as every siege will be different which will require a change of forces and tactics if you want to win. Ideas of having the low down grubs fighting in the trenches could be represented as the space wolves who have come accustomed to close quarter fighting and the extra chainsword here and there would come in handy as the fighting gets fixed. Forces could be compromised of long range fire support such as the space marines with thunder fire cannons and dakka dreads along with the conversion beams. While all of this is supported by a mech assault where infiltrating chosen have cracked open a breach to allow rhinos to pour through. These are just some ideas in what to construct the three codex's around to meet the needs of being a part of siege company where their strengths can be used with maximum efficiently. While it may seen as not fluffy when a force seems to assault ordinated or has too many unorthodox units, just remember that all these forces make up the whole army and all of this becomes balanced out. Well that is my views on the matter anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predator-joe Posted June 23, 2010 Author Share Posted June 23, 2010 So after alot more time of thought and consideration i've realised that the codex chaos space marines can easily full fill the roles of the other two codex's due to the large versatility of the troops that are available. So without further ado here is what i think could work Daemon prince: part daemon, part dread. right arm could be magnatised to either have another close combat weapon (khorne) an assault cannon (doom bolt) or some hand with fire glowing or something for tzeentch. The possed like dreadnought will incorporate the obliterator virus. hopefully look cool Abbadon: some Master of the forge looking guy (steel brethren has a excellent example) chosen: some heavy kitted marines or equipped to look like seige experts Berzerkers: have been seen allied to iron warriors Thousand sons: use sternguard models for the bolters and give inbuilt shield generators for their back packs noise marine: make them look like iron warriors with specialised weaponry and combat drugs Plague marines: bionics, the iron hands conversion kit looks quite nice to use Lesser daemons: from the gaunts ghosts first book with the chaos iron men, heavy description and very nice to use represent this with necron warriors with spikey bits and big up blades and weapons. All the gauss weapons can be used fir shield generator, power supplies etc for the rest of the army but painted up red and evil looking :lol: oblits: a mix of termies, possessed and alot of weaponry The rest can be eaily used as part of the iron warrior army without a major need of fluff behind (for example: tanks) well what do you all think P.S. for apocalypse games i may still use a codex space marines for ironclads, conversion beams and thunder fire cannons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingGriffon Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 I am getting tired of people playing "Chaos" and using a Space Wolf Codex or Blood Angel Codex or whatever. Yes. Our 'Dex isn't that great. However, we are Chaos. Play the 'Dex you have and get over it. I wish I had more custom items to make my World Eater army more colorful, but I don't. I just don't understand why people do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 be happy you can play WE. some legions cant even make one list that is not a sad clone of a BL list . It is possible to make a AL army easier with[or rather it was till they changed the WH/DH dexs] codex sm and it would be A be different from both normal sm and csm lists B more fluffy and C still be viable. no one who dislikes the chaos dex will "get over it" because to a lot of the legion players the switch from 3.5 to 4th ed dex was not just a simple change of unit set ups[GW does that always and it was expected] the problem is that whole legion lists died , there is no way to make anything even close to them and in the case of EC most of their models were made illegal. Tell a DA player to play codex SM and tell him to get over it [without the option to make a DW or RW list] , I wonder how he will like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingGriffon Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 You are right, Jeske. Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, and to some extent Iron Warriors did get hamstringed. However, I don't think the right answer is to run to a Loyalist 'Dex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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