Vindicators and Scattering

[DarkGuard]

Hi everyone. Ok a couple of months ago I finally decided to get a couple of my favourite Space Marine tanks, the nigh unstoppable Vindicators. In preparation for a tournament I felt that these two tanks would cut a swathe of death and destruction through infantry units. That was until I went for over a month never rolling a hit for them when scattering...

 

Fortunately at the tournament they were fine, destroying 20 Daemonettes in one turn, and being spot on against Killa Kans and Ork Boyz, but since then they've been awful again. In one game all they did combined was take out 4 Tau Fire Warriors and a couple of Drones, and 2 Sisters of Battle while stunning a tank.

 

So what am I doing wrong with them? Is this simply just terrible luck on my part with their effectiveness being cut because I'm scattering all the time?

 

Or are there ways I can mitigate this? What's the best way to use them? One on either side of your battle line, letting you cover the entire battlefield, or both in the middle where they can combine or peel off to threaten separate units at will?

 

I really hope my luck or tactics get better, because I don't want to drop these guys, I love the models, but I find it hard to justify their use. Everyone is at first scared of my army because it has two Vindicators, until after the first turn they fire when I reveal how awful they are.

 

So how do you guys use your Vindicators? And which tactics do you feel are best for them?

[Jackelope King]

You've stumbled onto one of the big weaknesses of the Vindicator: it only gets one shot per turn.

 

When it scatters, it sucks. And you're probably going to scatter your shot out of useful range about twice per game.

 

And for all the glory of its S10 pie plate goodness, it'll still only have a chance to wound your average monstrous creature once per turn. And considering how many T6 Sv3+ wounds my buddy can put on the table these days with his Tyranids, it just doesn't compare to weight of fire.

 

That's not to say it's a waste. Other folks might be able to give you some tricks to try, but I honestly prefer a simple Dakka Predator in my Heavy Slots, and I rely on weight of fire in general in all my armies (I've got 10 meltaguns in my Biker army, 3 multimeltas, and my whole firebase is built to torrent out shots; my Tau have 10 Missile Pod / Plasma Rifle crisis suits and puts out 40 shots that wound most things in the game on a 2+). But with single-shot weapons of all kinds, it's a gamblers' weapon. Taking them in multiples can help normalize your results some, but it's still iffy.

[Koremu]

Use the threat of Outflanking (and just plain flanking) units to bunch the enemy up. That way you'll never actually miss.

 

Against armies that want to rush you, deploy centrally for the same reason.

[nurglez]

In my 1500 point death guard list I use 1 vindicator and 1 landraider, as well as 3 other squads in rhinos, and I use the threat of the vindicator and the armour of the landraider and threat of the squad inside to ensure my other squads get to where they need to go with minimum hassle.

 

My chaos vindicator has daemonic possession, so bs3, but the threat of the str 10 ordinance is wonderful, drawing fire away from my important stuff.

 

ok i only play against a small circle of friends but even if my vindicators die or lose their weapon, they have taken fire my troops arent taking.

 

in 2000 point games I generally run 2 of them, side by side or split up depending on the mission and who im playing.

 

oh, and i managed to hit my friend's vendetta with it, and then rolled double ones for armour penetration....

[Mysticaria]

As long as the other guy is shooting at Vindicators and not at rhinos then I am happy. When I actually hit something with them I consider that a bonus. To me they are a cheap, potentially devastating threat that my opponant must deal with. If they let it sit there are fire away the whole game it is bound to do some serious damage. So like the above posters I use that fact to position them. Also mentioned, try taking a pair of them for about the same price as a tactical squad and deploy them together. Two shots should hit more reliably than one shot, and gives you a large AV13 area to hide stuff behind.

 

Anyway, the point is... don't rate the vindicator on only what it kills. Rate its overall effect on the game. It changes the game from deployment on, so don't undervalue that.

 

-Myst

[Hellios]

As others have said they can be great for flank denial, making people who want to rush towards you stop and think and drawing fire away from less threatening but more important unit (say troops when you need those objectives).

 

Also how long will your vindi normally survive for personally I find a vindicator normally starts doing more damage from turn 3 onwards but on the same note is more likely to be destroyed in turns 1-2. The vindicators excels at mopping up once in range especially if there is little left that can threaten it. I would say the siege shield is worth raking assuming you have lost of cover and try and drive yourself forward (or deploy in) into a position where it is obscurred as this well help you survive to make it into rounds 3+. The other thing I see done if you don't require the vindicators firepower straight away but because of the mission and board set up (maybe the other guy i going first) you feel that it might be destroyed at long range beforeyou or the enemy have moved forward... In this case try reserveing it.

 

As for the scatter... well that is luck... since I've started playing demo-pack heavy guard I've rolled nothing bit hit and then either a 3 or 2 on 2d6 so even if I rolled a scatter it wouldn't scatter! You could pray to the dice gods or make a pact with the dice daemons... also if he has also there may be a unit you really want to destroy but which will be really hard to hit compared to some other targets (say a dreadnaught as it is smaller than most other vehicles) and it might worth be aiming for a weaker unit that is really spread out (like a large ork mob so it covers a large area) or at a unit that is in the middle of a group of units so that if you scatter you might hit something else.

[DarkGuard]

Use the threat of Outflanking (and just plain flanking) units to bunch the enemy up. That way you'll never actually miss.

 

Against armies that want to rush you, deploy centrally for the same reason.

 

So you mean deploy the Vindicators together centrally and attempt to make the entire enemy force bunch up? Sounds like a solid plan.

 

Thanks for all your comments guys, you've given me some good thoughts to think about.

 

I have indeed run into the little snag of the Vindicators Jackelope King, but I won't loose complete faith with it quite yet, hopefully I might get it working better later. I just know I'd roll 1s and 2s for the direct shooting. :(

 

I must admit nurglez and Mysticaria that my Troops and other men do tend to survive the game a lot easier. The last couple of games I've lost a Vindicator, my Razorback and Sternguard, but kept my two Tactical Squads alive, so I suppose my big threats helped me there.

 

Hellios, I agree with you that the Vindy isn't a damage dealer from Turn 1, it's range is too short, but 24" and a 18" of movement by Turn 2 should be enough to see it positioned correctly and ready to wreck havoc and destruction. I just tend to get just the one shot and then power fists and meltas close in.

 

And hopefully my luck will improve B)

 

Thanks everyone for your comments so far.

[Meatman]

Taking Chronus is an expensive but useful upgrade for them, making the cannon scatter 1" less each time. Yes, he is expensive and yes he has better use elsewhere, but would be worth considering if you're that worried about scatter.

[DarkGuard]

Taking Chronus is an expensive but useful upgrade for them, making the cannon scatter 1" less each time. Yes, he is expensive and yes he has better use elsewhere, but would be worth considering if you're that worried about scatter.

 

I have considered Chronus, but there are a couple of things that stop me taking him. One is he is a named character, I prefer not to use them. And the other is for the 70 odd points he is, you are only reducing scatter by 1". Yes he prevents stunned and shaken, but that's not worth it IMO. As far as I see it, Chronus is more useful in a Predator or Land Raider where you can actually use his BS5 with straight shots.

[chapter master 454]

Vindicators hurt when they hit, they fail horribly if they miss and become useless the moment they lose their demolisher cannon. For all their AV, I wouldn't rate them above a TFC in terms of toughness. A TFC takes on glance and it's ka-putt but with it's range it requires something of serious range (and thus cost) to target it and even then my venerables look on quite smugly at the wasted effort. Akin to the TFC it will fire once or twice in one game, so that one shot will ether wreck house or just make a nice hole for the astartes to have a pool party in. If you want something that can give you an pie plate of destruction without needing to waste a HS slot try a chapter master, he can add CC power and when needed (Maybe he finsihed an assault and a troop unit is nearing an objective) can drop the pie plate. Not accruate but if it hits, it's like saying 'you shall not pass' but with an extremely big gun instead!

 

On a side note: my friend has recently been annoying me, I'm starting to get vindicare and vindcator mixed up in my speech >.< (he says vindicare for vindicator sometimes and vindicator for vindicare at others!)

[Fatuous]

Scatter dice They really are odd things. With my guard lists, I seem to roll hit after hit after hit, but as soon as it's my marines, it's scatter all day every day.

 

Alas there is nothing really that you can do about that, except try to remember that in time, over all, you should be getting 1/3+ direct hits, but that doesnt help when you spend a hole game missing every shooting phase. but do not lose hope.

 

Sending both up the middle is IMO the best option. It means that their threat range covers most of the battle field, rather than being limited to 1 flank. Keeping them together so that if one misses, you have a 'spare' for those must die targets helps, and gives a nice place to hide rhino or assault troops behind.

 

Target slection is key for large templates that scatter. To get the hits you need to be targeting mas concentrations of targets, which is not always possible, but to get the most hits that you can, you may end up firing them on concentrated troops that are less of a threat (lower on your targe priority).

 

Vehiles with troops behind or next to them them can be good targets, as you can get a hit on the vehicle and hit a bunhc of troops too. Or firing on troops that just disembarked. they are so nicely bunched together that if you do get that hit, you will kill most of them.

 

Avoid single targets. Avoid small targets. Large tanks like LRs can be good choices, as it has to scatter quite far away to miss.

 

be cunning when you position your templates. They do not have to be on the centre of the base, or vehicle, as long as they are touching it (with in it's boundries) so you can have an impact on the scatter a little (of course it is all down to the luck of the dice tho).

 

Over all, do not loss heart, and keep at it, but also, do not expect too much from them. Odds are that you will only get a true 'hit' every 3 turns you fire it. The other 2/3 times it will scatter 3" on average (i can almost guarantee you tho, that the rolls where you get low scatter are the ones you roll a hit on the scatter die, and and misses will move 7-8"........). So if you see a LR with a bunch of marines 4" on it's left flank, aim for the left flank of the LR. If you scatter 3" right, you should still get a full strength hit on the LR, if it scatters to the left, you have a good odds chance of getting a hit on the marines. Just prey that you don't scatter forwards or back ;)

[DarkGuard]

Thanks for that Fatuous, I agree that the dice can be fickle in such circumstances. They only seem to miss at my LGS, as when playing my brother at home my Vindicators were really good, wiping out an Assault Squad and most of a Terminator Squad in 2 shots, and the Sternguard Squad with another. Good ideas there with rolling them up the centre, I'll have to start doing this more often I think.

[Velkairiwyth]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTsaJGP9PDw

 

Fritz, Way of Saim-Hann talking Vindicator tactics. 'Nuff said.

[DarkGuard]

Have just watched that vid Velkairiwythm thanks for the link. I have always been an advocate of Vindicators being able to be used as defensive tanks, and at times it suits me to use them as such. For example, playing my brother the other day I positioned them so they could see 3 objectives. One I ignored because of Scouts, but the other two they were able to defend, primarily by blowing apart approaching Assault Marines and Terminators.

 

However, I do feel as well that if used with care and cleverly, they are also effective on the attack. That Demolisher Cannon is short range, and even if you position it middle of board overlooking an objective your opponent can still attempt to finish it off at range. Therefore there need to be effective tactics to get the most of it moving forward and blowing your opponent apart like that.

 

I'll need to think more about the tactics I use for them and perhaps use some more next time I play.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

VINDICATORS.

 

Perhaps the most exciting tank in our repertoire. Exciting for you and your opponent. ;)

 

The ferocity of it’s gun will alter your foe’s deployment, how he moves and what he shoots at. More than any other unit a Marine player can bring, the Vindicator shapes the game and instils doubt and caution in your opponents mind.

Winning games isn’t just killing him better or claiming more objectives. It is imposing your will on the game and having it played your way. Killing and objectives are just manifestations of that. The Vindicator brings that shaping influence.

 

What the Vindicator has is a cannon that can smash units of Terminators, Tyranid Warriors and Plague Marines in a single shot.

It also penetrates AV 14 20/36 or 55.55% of the time.

That is some serious firepower.

 

The Vindicator is one of the few units that can threaten all things on the table. It’s short range dictates that you will usually be trundling forwards to shoot things.

That means it will attract fire and put itself into a position to be shot.

Bummer -_- .... or is it? :huh:

 

Being something that so threatens the survival of your foe’s units means it becomes high target priority.

That frees the rest of your force to do it’s thing unmolested. Bonus! Your real game winners are left free to win the game for you by covering no-man’s-land and bashing up enemy troops and Melta-gunning or Power-fisting his tanks and claiming objectives.

 

When combined with extra armour and smoke, the Vindicator can manoeuvre around the table top, inviting hostile firepower and through the medium of perceived threat can control the game for you, even if it doesn’t fire all game.

 

It’s more delicate brother, the Predator (which suffers a big drop in usefulness from even being glanced) is a prime example of benefiting from the Vindicator’s attention grabbing presence.

 

+++

 

How often will it hit?

It’s accuracy is okay;

2/6 chance of a hit.

 

of the 4/6 chances of a scatter;

6/36 will be 0” of deviation (2-4 - bs4 = 0)

4/36 is 1”

5/36 is 2”

6/36 is 3”

5/36 is 4”

4/36 is 5”

3/36 is 6”

2/36 is 7”

1/36 is 8”

 

To put that into something more real,

33.33% hit

11.11% hit (0 deviation)

16.67% scatter up to 2” (which is usually enough for a hit on most things)

 

44.44% of a proper hit

16.67% of a good enough hit

near as 60% chance.

 

+++

 

Power of the Machine Spirit;

This upgrade seems to have been designed with the Vindicator in mind. It allows the tank to still fire even if suffering a stunned or shaken result. That means 2/6 penetration and 4/6 glance results are near useless.

Buying extra armour allows the up to 6” straight ahead move to be changed into any direction, so still can be of worth.

 

BS 2 reduces accuracy to

33.33% of direct hit

4/6 x 1/36 chance of 0 deviation. 1.85%

4/6 x 3/36 chance of 2” deviation. 5.55%

 

35.2% of a proper hit.

5.55% of a good enough hit.

near as 40% chance.

 

+++

 

The Vindicator can be a lone choice, which draws fire from the rest of your force, or you can use all three of them. They don’t suffer from the narrow menu that the Predator does.

 

You can be confident that most games you bring a Vindicator, it has contributed far more than it’s kill tally to your result.

 

Obviously written for Templars, but hopefully there is enough there for other Chapters.

[Velkairiwyth]

Good guide. ;)

 

And Fritz's Vindicator tactics vid proved invaluable to me. I only own 1, and it went from being relatively useless to being one of the most guaranteed investments I can field.

 

I never start with the vindicator in LOS - it either comes on as reserve, hides behind terrain or I put up a rhino wall specifically to keep it alive at the start. I never use it on MCs (1 wound max = a waste of its power). The best effect I have seen it do is with objective placement: I created a kill zone with two close together objectives and watched my dark-angels opponent run towards the objectives. His HQ Rhino trundled up the field and I hit it with my Ironclads meltagun and all the troops were forced to disembark. BAM. Hit with the vindicator. They all had an invulnerable save thanks to Azrael(?) but I had null zone... Vindicator hits, not a single 2 is rolled - he has 3 troops succede the rerolling invulnerable save... Azrael and power fists are not among them. Ironclad charges and wipes the remainder of the unit out.

 

Vindicator? It scored a hit at a critical time, but it was not the Demolisher cannon being magical, it was a combination of tactics that resulted in me being able to wipe 1/3 of his points value out with two/three units working in unison. (Vindicator, Dreadnought & Librarian) As mentioned above - the vindicator is not expected to do huge amounts of damage, but it hurts when it does. By using it correctly, you can keep it alive for longer, and use it to attract that heavy weapons fire. I sat my vindicator in area terrain for cover save, and just left it there for the battle. The heavy weapons failed to damage it and by the end of the game the rest of my army was mostly intact, his forces were ravaged and the Demolisher Cannon was allowed to reap havoc, demolishing his HQ, his terminator squad (again, in conjunction with that Null Zone)

 

As a result of the effectiveness of a single vindicator in my battles, I have seen a rush of friends laying their hands on their own... then watch in glee as they scuttle them all over the board in panic not doing anything of use as a stray missile pops them from the side or something.

 

From my own side of things: I will direct a couple of surgical shots at a vindicator, but I wont focus fire everything at it. Same with Land Raiders. I prioritise weapons fire based on what they are more effective at popping - and if needs be - feed a tempting target in the fire lane. (e.g Ironclad in cover right in front of that vindicator... the template has to land on the base so your talking 50% chance the vindicator will hit... 50% chance you will get that cover save, and with AV13 theres a 33% chance that if you ARE hit - the shot will do nothing. Throw in that it is AP2 - all you get is what you roll on the damage chart, and unless you immobilise or wreck the dreadnought - theres a good chance you are within charging distance... Or I will plod it forward to get in charging range... pop smoke and repeat.

 

Target priority, target overload, team work and good luck is key. Take to the field and enjoy the pretty tanks, or at least the pretty explosions as the enemy panic fires at it!