Buying a Rhino

[maverike_prime]

Okay, I got into a rather interesting session of Rule Lawyers the other day. Now I will tell you upfront I'm terrible with the rule lawyers game, but an interesting point was made.

 

In the Chaos Space Marine codex, under the Khorne Berzerkers unit entry the transport option reads:

 

If it numbers ten or less models, the squad may have a Chaos Rhino dedicated transport

 

While in every other option it reads:

The squad may have a Chaos Rhino dedicated Transport.

 

Here's where the rule laywering came into play:

 

Lets say you take a 20 man unit, other then Khorne Berzerkers, that has the option to take a Chaos Rhino. Can you purchase a Rhino for the unit and just not deploy the unit inside the Rhino?

 

My thinking is: No, you wouldn't be able to for a couple of reasons.

 

Can anyone point me to a page in the Rule book that would deal with this? I've flipped through the vehicles and transport sections but haven't found anything.

[JamesI]

Units can buy transports they can't fit in (other than Khorne Berserkers for some reason). Since it say "They can buy a rhino" without a size limit, they can.

[Grey Mage]

There is no unit size restriction for purchasing a dedicated transport other than those found in the appropriate codex army list sections.

 

So, 10 or less for beserkers, any size for anyone else.

[Frogstaff]

Since you don't have to start a unit in its dedicated transport, whether or not it could fit in it is not really relevant.

[Frosty the Pyro]

you may. Just remember only the unit (plus attached IC) may be embarked during deployment or from reserves. Other units may embark later, but may not start embarked.

[chromedog]

You can buy it because the unit doesn't have to start embarked IN IT (and indeed, won't fit until it has taken 50% casualties in the case of a 20 man squad).

 

10 man SM squads can buy Razorbacks that only fit 6 of them. Same story.

[Sparhawk]

Long story short: Khorne Berzerkers need to have 10 or less models to buy a rhino. Any other unit can have any number of models (within legal unit size) and purchase a rhino.

 

It isn't consistent but it is RAW.

[fallynnknivez]

Along these lines, if you where to use a Land Raider for those bezerkers instead, would you be able to start the game embarked in it, despite the rules for berzerkers does not state they can have a dedicated land raider?

 

I guess a better way to put it, is, if a transport is not dedicated to anyone can you deploy it with any unit (that can of course fit) within it or does the transport HAVE to be dedicated to a unit, in order to start the game with a unit already embarked in it?

 

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Second part to this, is it okay to declare a land raider as say a chaos terminator dedicated transport but when deploying forces just deploy the land raider on its own and opt to deepstrike the terminators instead without it taking a slot on the organization chart? If so on your first turn could you instead load berzerkers up into it?

[njm3]

Along these lines, if you where to use a Land Raider for those bezerkers instead, would you be able to start the game embarked in it, despite the rules for berzerkers does not state they can have a dedicated land raider?

 

For deployment, page 92 doesn't explicitly state that transports can have troops in em during initial deployment, but reserves (pg 94, Similarly, the player must specify if any transport vehicle

in reserve is carrying any of the infantry units and/or independent characters in reserve and deep striking (pg. 95, In the Movement phase when they arrive, these units

may not move any further, other than to disembark from a deep striking transport vehicle do discuss deploying with troops in em.

 

But looking at page 67 (dedicated transport box), if you read the limitations for dedicated transports compared to normal transports, logically transports can deploy with troops in them during initial deployment. But yes, in theory, a rules lawyer could have an iota of "but it doesn't say you can!" ammunition, but would probably never have anyone _ever_ play against them.

 

Second part to this, is it okay to declare a land raider as say a chaos terminator dedicated transport but when deploying forces just deploy the land raider on its own and opt to deepstrike the terminators instead without it taking a slot on the organization chart? If so on your first turn could you instead load berzerkers up into it?

 

Pg 67: yes. yes, but they would have to embark during your first turn.

[Frosty the Pyro]

Along these lines, if you where to use a Land Raider for those bezerkers instead, would you be able to start the game embarked in it, despite the rules for berzerkers does not state they can have a dedicated land raider?

 

I guess a better way to put it, is, if a transport is not dedicated to anyone can you deploy it with any unit (that can of course fit) within it or does the transport HAVE to be dedicated to a unit, in order to start the game with a unit already embarked in it?

 

-----------

Second part to this, is it okay to declare a land raider as say a chaos terminator dedicated transport but when deploying forces just deploy the land raider on its own and opt to deepstrike the terminators instead without it taking a slot on the organization chart? If so on your first turn could you instead load berzerkers up into it?

 

Yes, any unit may start in a non dedicated transport (subject to normal embarking restrictions), though it never explicitly says so in the rules there is an example were it is done so.

For the second part, you are corect, there is no requirement for a unit to start in their dedicated transport, and once turn one has rolled around anyone may enter any transport (again subjec to normal embarking restrictions). The only exception is some of the older codecs specificly mention that only the unit the transport is dedicated to can enter it (BT or DA I think I dont remember which one) and dex trumps rulebook. But for chaos its fine.

[Isiah]

The only exception is some of the older codecs specificly mention that only the unit the transport is dedicated to can enter it (BT or DA I think I dont remember which one) and dex trumps rulebook. But for chaos its fine.

 

Hmm... not DA as they reference the dedicated transport rules in the BRB [DA codex p87]. So must be BT codex but I don't have it to hand to check.

 

Cheers

I

[Hymirl]

I guess a better way to put it, is, if a transport is not dedicated to anyone can you deploy it with any unit (that can of course fit) within it or does the transport HAVE to be dedicated to a unit, in order to start the game with a unit already embarked in it?

 

There are no restrictions, therefore there are no restrictions.

 

If you really want positive proof that you can deploy units inside a non-dedicated transport consider that the embarkation rules say you can measure to the hull of the vehicle when considering the position of the unit inside. Therefore if the transport is in your deployment zone you can prove that units inside the transport are also in your deployment zone... as far as the rules are concerned there is no difference being in a land raider, in a wood, in a ruined building or whatever.

 

With reserves its still fine because the reserve rules specifically state you decide whats being carried by transport vehicles when you're preparing your reserves at the start of the game.

 

 

Second part to this, is it okay to declare a land raider as say a chaos terminator dedicated transport but when deploying forces just deploy the land raider on its own and opt to deepstrike the terminators instead without it taking a slot on the organization chart? If so on your first turn could you instead load berzerkers up into it?

 

Remember that units using deep strike would have to be declared that they're doing so at the beginning of the game, as stated in the reserves rules, you can't simply decide to do so when they arrive. And if you're not arriving in the land raider you'd have to roll for the units to arrive separately.

[njm3]

... as far as the rules are concerned there is no difference being in a land raider, in a wood, in a ruined building or whatever.

 

Units in vehicles aren't really on the board, for most purposes. Could find a quote, but you know what I mean.