Lt. Smash Posted June 20, 2010 Share Posted June 20, 2010 A few days ago I had a fantasic idea, and with some promting from a mate, I've decided to post it. More or less these are the questions I pose to you. 1: Is it viable that there are angels in 40k, just as there are daemons? 2: Would you play someone using an Angel army? (Daemon rules, probably converted Bloodletters...) 3: As far as fluff is concerned, as justification, is this suitable? As there are daemons that follow the Chaos Gods, and are subject to their whims, would it be plausible for daemons, as in Warp spawned creatures, to follow the Emperor. With the Emperors soul eternally battling the orces of Chaos, would it make sense for him to have a non-corpreal army of angels to fight alongside him in the Warp? Which occasionally spill out into the mortal plane to combat the forces of Chaos? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/204633-angels/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainawsm Posted June 20, 2010 Share Posted June 20, 2010 I agree entirely with the idea (me being helpful mate.) Just wondering, what models and units will you be using? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/204633-angels/#findComment-2440247 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt. Smash Posted June 20, 2010 Author Share Posted June 20, 2010 Leaning towards Bloodletters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/204633-angels/#findComment-2440251 Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainawsm Posted June 20, 2010 Share Posted June 20, 2010 sweet any ideas for paint schemes? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/204633-angels/#findComment-2440253 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Bloodwolf Posted June 20, 2010 Share Posted June 20, 2010 Could always say its the souls of the astartes who died fighting for the Emperor Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/204633-angels/#findComment-2440255 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt. Smash Posted June 20, 2010 Author Share Posted June 20, 2010 Paint scheme? Blue and dark grey, maybe. Only if I use Bloodletters though. It has to be obnoxiously diffrent to the norm. The souls of dead Astartes works, but it's to conventional. I was thinking more along the lines of something supernatural. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/204633-angels/#findComment-2440258 Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainawsm Posted June 20, 2010 Share Posted June 20, 2010 I like Jarl Bloodwolf's idea. The fact that they are bloodletters could represent the rage of the astartes incarnate. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/204633-angels/#findComment-2440261 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Bloodwolf Posted June 20, 2010 Share Posted June 20, 2010 Paint scheme? Blue and dark grey, maybe. Only if I use Bloodletters though. It has to be obnoxiously diffrent to the norm. The souls of dead Astartes works, but it's to conventional. I was thinking more along the lines of something supernatural. Souls of fallen Astartes isn't supernatural? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/204633-angels/#findComment-2440277 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurgling6688 Posted June 20, 2010 Share Posted June 20, 2010 Souls of astartes are pretty much the Legion of the Damned. Before they hinted that they were the souls of only one chapter (forget which) that was lost in the warp, but in the newest ultramarines novel there are hints that they are the souls of allllllll astartes (maybe just the most heroic ones). Although this could also be due to poor writing and fluff checking by Graham McNeill, which i see as being pretty plausible. Hes not the best writer around. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/204633-angels/#findComment-2440298 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt. Smash Posted June 20, 2010 Author Share Posted June 20, 2010 The souls of Astartes isn't supernatural enough. For me. :D Plus there were several questions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/204633-angels/#findComment-2440930 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retalitus Posted June 21, 2010 Share Posted June 21, 2010 1: Is it viable that there are angels in 40k, just as there are daemons? I'm not 100% sure about this... after all, the Emperor, despite being a super powerful psyker and seemingly immortal, isn't really a god in the same way that the Ruinous Powers are. Not yet, anyway... And in my view the Daemons of 40k aren't so much the 'demons' most people are familiar with in Christian mythology... in 40k they're warp creatures, aspects of the 4 great warp intelligences representing the base emotions of mortals. So, it doesn't necessarily follow that they need to have an 'opposite' in the form of all-good angels. After all, in the 40k universe is anyone good? The Imperium is as corrupt and evil as Chaos! Despite this, I'm firmly of the opinion that 40k is a game where you're imagination should be allowed to influence fluff. If the way you view the Emperor in the game is as a god-of-sorts able to save the souls of his subjects in the warp, then absolutely you should be able to play an army of avenging incorporeal angels formed from his 'divine' will! 2: Would you play someone using an Angel army? (Daemon rules, probably converted Bloodletters...) Absolutely. As long as they've done a few things: - Properly modelled the units, so that they're fairly easily recognisable as the unit they're based on (i.e. Horrors, Bloodletters, etc...). The key thing is, there shouldn't be any confusion. Your opponent must not struggle to work out what units he's facing. That's just unfair in my opinion. - They've put some effort into explaining how the Daemon's powers are 'angelic'! After all, 'Nurgle's Rot' doesn't sound particularly divine, does it?! 3: As far as fluff is concerned, as justification, is this suitable? I think so. I'm not really sure what other current 40k army could do a better job of representing the Emperors divine angels... the new Blood Angels codex perhaps? A lot of their units look pretty suitable. However, you lose out on those the more supernatural side of the Daemonic codex, like deep-striking onto the table, invul saves, etc. Still, something to consider. Hope this gives you some food for thought! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/204633-angels/#findComment-2441894 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt. Smash Posted June 21, 2010 Author Share Posted June 21, 2010 Thanks for the replies all! I'm not 100% sure about this... after all, the Emperor, despite being a super powerful psyker and seemingly immortal, isn't really a god in the same way that the Ruinous Powers are. Not yet, anyway... And in my view the Daemons of 40k aren't so much the 'demons' most people are familiar with in Christian mythology... in 40k they're warp creatures, aspects of the 4 great warp intelligences representing the base emotions of mortals. So, it doesn't necessarily follow that they need to have an 'opposite' in the form of all-good angels. After all, in the 40k universe is anyone good? The Imperium is as corrupt and evil as Chaos! Hmm. Isn't it possible that the "Angels" (and I use the term relativly loosely) are, in fact warp creatures? Aspects of the Emperor, representing the "emotion" (this one I use loosely too) of Faith? Absolutely. As long as they've done a few things: - Properly modelled the units, so that they're fairly easily recognisable as the unit they're based on (i.e. Horrors, Bloodletters, etc...). The key thing is, there shouldn't be any confusion. Your opponent must not struggle to work out what units he's facing. That's just unfair in my opinion. - They've put some effort into explaining how the Daemon's powers are 'angelic'! After all, 'Nurgle's Rot' doesn't sound particularly divine, does it?! Yep. I fully intend to do both those things. Although I am still unsure for what models to build off. Thanks all! And keep it coming! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/204633-angels/#findComment-2441941 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted June 21, 2010 Share Posted June 21, 2010 In the novel A Thousand Sons, some daemons are described as appearing like angels to humans with no psychic abilities. They don't see the true form of the daemon, instead seeing it as something pleasant. Basically... "I reject your reality and go with my own." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/204633-angels/#findComment-2441974 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retalitus Posted June 21, 2010 Share Posted June 21, 2010 Hmm. Isn't it possible that the "Angels" (and I use the term relativly loosely) are, in fact warp creatures? Aspects of the Emperor, representing the "emotion" (this one I use loosely too) of Faith? I suppose that can be argued. My issue is primarily that - at this current moment in the 40k timeline - the Emperor isn't a true warp power. Sure, he's the most powerful human psyker in existence, but he's not up there with the Chaos Gods. All Daemons in the warp are essentially aspects of the Ruinous Powers, and I just don't think the Emperor is powerful enough to have warp creatures that are aspects of his power. Personally though, I fully subscribe to the theory that when the Emperor finally keels over, there's a chance he'll become just as chaotic as Khorne, Tzeentch, et al. Perhaps the new Chaos God of Ignorance, Arrogance and whatever else his Imperium represents. But this is all by-the-by. I say if the fluff works for you, and you can justify it - which I think you've done, although I'm not 100% convinced myself - you should go ahead and do it! As for the actual models you use... hmmm... how about these ideas: - Your troop choices could be lesser angels (without wings, of course), perhaps representing the souls of the righteous. Horrors could be some form of divine archer, instead of Warpfire, call it Holyfire! As for Plaguebearers, they're renowned for being tough above all, so perhaps model some form of stout creatures with shields and armour? Bloodletters as your generic infantry with big holy swords, etc.... you catch my drift. - Winged Daemon Princes as fully-fledged Angels, perhaps? The mark of Nurgle or Tzeentch (providing increases in T and inv. save respectfully), along with Iron Hide, could all be some form of divine protection or armour? - The Greater Daemons could be Archangels... the Bloodthirster could be modeled like the Archangel Michael, i.e. the big tough angel with a huge sword and wings. The Lord of Change as an Archangel Gabriel-esque model, with the KoS' ranged powers being converted into divine sonic attacks = the "Word of the Emperor" perhaps, as Gabriel was the messenger of God... etc etc Essentially, what you can do is only limited by your imagination, and your skill as a modeller. The real challenge is properly identifying what unit is what. Hopefully the examples above can give you some inspiration. After all, the biggest angel you can model with a huge sword isn't going to be mistaken for anything other than a Bloodthirster, or angelic troops with big flaming swords as anything other than Bloodletters. If you do decide to go ahead and do this, I would love to see some of the models you create! Again, hope this helps. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/204633-angels/#findComment-2441994 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt. Smash Posted June 22, 2010 Author Share Posted June 22, 2010 Once again thanks all! In the novel A Thousand Sons, some daemons are described as appearing like angels to humans with no psychic abilities. Interesting... - Essentially, what you can do is only limited by your imagination, and your skill as a modeller. The real challenge is properly identifying what unit is what. Hopefully the examples above can give you some inspiration. After all, the biggest angel you can model with a huge sword isn't going to be mistaken for anything other than a Bloodthirster, or angelic troops with big flaming swords as anything other than Bloodletters. My modelling skills aren't all that flash... I may try some sort of kitbash. But which kits? Maybe the Sanguinary Guard. And The Sanguinator would make a great Herald... Possibly chuck in some Bretonnian bits... Hell (poor choice of word) maybe even some Eldar pieces... I'd like to use one base range for all the troops, e.g. Bretonnian Men at Arms with shields as Plaugebearers, some of those Bretonnian Archers as Horrors, and Bretonnians with big swords as Bloodletters... etc. I think if I do that the paint scheme will be the most important aspect of the army, in terms of making them angelic. I dunno ideas? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/204633-angels/#findComment-2442287 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 If you're looking for angel-like beings in the 40k universe, it probably does bear mentioning that from what we've seen the Imperium's Living Saints seem to have a fairly angelic appearance and no shortage of supernatural abilities. An actual living saint is a fairly rare thing, but between the fact that they have an established ability to come back from the dead and the argument that there are probably many more actual saints than the Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition ever formally acknowledge, I imagine one could make a reasonable fluff argument for it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/204633-angels/#findComment-2444303 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TempusCorvus Posted June 26, 2010 Share Posted June 26, 2010 you could probably use the C'Tan Deciever as an angelic being with a bit of conversion work. Maybe some angelic wings, and a bit of conversion work on the head. The nightbringer could also act as the Angel of Death, or something like that. Heck, "angels of death" is one of the nicknames for the Space Marines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/204633-angels/#findComment-2446115 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daboarder Posted June 29, 2010 Share Posted June 29, 2010 hmm I like this idea and I've though of similar things myself but the problem of angels on 40k is that they are basically the space marines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/204633-angels/#findComment-2448767 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt. Smash Posted July 8, 2010 Author Share Posted July 8, 2010 Living Saints, eh? Now there's an idea. I could probably convert a couple of those Necron heros into angels. Thanks for the idea, dude! I've always thought of Space Marines as higher than Saints and Angels, in a more Greceo-Roman sort of way, as demigods. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/204633-angels/#findComment-2456960 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Divine Carrot Posted July 15, 2010 Share Posted July 15, 2010 Well instead of having them dedicated to something ( emperors dead worriors) it could be a totally unexplained force in the galaxy. like whatever is in the goul stars the death specters are ment to keep out or the reminants of one of the destoryed races from millions of years ago that the necrons exterminated. Or if its one of the desroyed races it could be their spirits or something. Use your imagenation. There is hundreds of unexplained things in the 41st mellenium. Deamons would be the most appropriate codex in my oppinon. As for models i dont know Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/204633-angels/#findComment-2463089 Share on other sites More sharing options...
warp spider Posted July 15, 2010 Share Posted July 15, 2010 Well instead of having them dedicated to something ( emperors dead worriors) it could be a totally unexplained force in the galaxy. like whatever is in the goul stars the death specters are ment to keep out or the reminants of one of the destoryed races from millions of years ago that the necrons exterminated. Or if its one of the desroyed races it could be their spirits or something. Use your imagenation. There is hundreds of unexplained things in the 41st mellenium. Deamons would be the most appropriate codex in my oppinon. As for models i dont know This is very true - there are plenty of obscure fluff references to spirits/ghosts. What about the ''Deamons'' of a minor Warp/Eldar God? Asurmen strikes me as angelic, while a lesser warp power could provide a basis. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/204633-angels/#findComment-2463602 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neff Posted July 15, 2010 Share Posted July 15, 2010 In the Inquisition Wars novels they talk of the Sensei. Theres debate as to weather or not the Sensei are the ancient childern of the Emperor or if they are the positive manifestations of emotions in the warp, like how the deamons are the negative. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/204633-angels/#findComment-2463871 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjørn eirik Posted July 25, 2010 Share Posted July 25, 2010 If I ever showed up at a gaming club, and the opposing player asked if he could use his angelic counts-as-daemons miniature, I would wholeheartedly allow him. espcially if the models were modelled of good/great quality ;-) fluff-wise? Why not, go for it mate :-) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/204633-angels/#findComment-2472201 Share on other sites More sharing options...
twistinthunder Posted July 26, 2010 Share Posted July 26, 2010 there is definatley a possibility for angels, or rather 'traitor daemons' as there is that one chaos god who is a traitor called malal (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Malal) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/204633-angels/#findComment-2472465 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Crippster Posted July 26, 2010 Share Posted July 26, 2010 They don't have to be the emperor's angels... just sayin.. There's a lot of other deities you could use instead Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/204633-angels/#findComment-2472755 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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