A good alternative to blood claws?

[Niiai]

Hi. I am not a very big fan of blood claws. I tryed them in a rhino, yes they get a whopping 4 attacks on the charge but I am not a fan of the WS\BS 3.

 

Now if I had Logan in my army I could use wolf guards as melle specialists running at 18 points for 4 WS 4 attacks on the charge. Is it a good tacktick? They would be good well into the second round of combat as well.

 

Or are they just to expensive? Death company who is by faar mutch better only cost 20.

[Brother Grius]

Death Company don't count as a scoring unit and suffer from Rage.

 

If you're going to be including Logan, then yes you can run some Wolf Guard in power armour as troops, but I advise you not to go overboard. In a force where your character costs more than a Land Raider, you'll be hard pressed to give every Wolf Guard shiny toys.

 

Keep it simple, and realize that your Wolf Guard should be reacting to charges that your Grey Hunters receive. If you put the Wolf Guard out front first, they will get chewed up and be a waste of points.

 

A unit like this should be a decent example of Wolf Guard as assault troops at a fair price.

 

8 Wolf Guard @ 224 pts.

Paired Wolf Claws

Power Sword

Power Fist

Combi-Melta

Combi-Flamer

 

Assuming you get the charge you should kill 4.405 MEQs, and if they are locked with your Grey Hunters, you shouldn't take any casualties.

 

I still believe that Blood Claws are a better buy though.

[Skirax]

15 BC in a LRC. My signiture unit B)

[Thunderhawk3015]

Using Blood Claws in a rhino is a waste. They are assault troops. The general idea with them is to get them up close and personal via Land Raider and make sure there is a wolf priest in there so they can reroll all the failed missed hits on infantry every turn. If you don't have the points, using cover and running them across the board works well too.

[Fenxis]

Would seem that a Wolf Priest with his 'Oath of War' would be must have with a BC unit of any numerical consequence, esp a Land Raider full.

[Fenxis]

If you're going to be including Logan, then yes you can run some Wolf Guard in power armour as troops, but I advise you not to go overboard. In a force where your character costs more than a Land Raider, you'll be hard pressed to give every Wolf Guard shiny toys.

 

Keep it simple, and realize that your Wolf Guard should be reacting to charges that your Grey Hunters receive. If you put the Wolf Guard out front first, they will get chewed up and be a waste of points.

 

A unit like this should be a decent example of Wolf Guard as assault troops at a fair price.

 

8 Wolf Guard @ 224 pts.

Paired Wolf Claws

Power Sword

Power Fist

Combi-Melta

Combi-Flamer

 

Assuming you get the charge you should kill 4.405 MEQs, and if they are locked with your Grey Hunters, you shouldn't take any casualties.

 

I still believe that Blood Claws are a better buy though.

 

Look at this another way:

 

Wolf Guard @ 18 per

+ WS 4

+ 2A base

- max 10

+ cheaper power weapons/power fists/plasma pistols

- only combi-weapons

--- not scoring

 

Blood Claws @15 per

- WS 3

- 1A base

+ +2 A on charge

+ 1-2 special weapons

- max 15

- headstrong

 

Bottom line on Wolf Guard vs Blood Claws as an assault unit:

1. Price-wise the WG are better value

2. Blood Claws have a huge advantage of being scoring unless... you drop a crapton of points into Logan.

3. So if you do go the Logan+WG route you really need to tailor the whole army around that combo to make it worthwhile

4. The Logan 'tax' isn't as high when you realize you probably want a HQ unit to babysit the BC anyways...

[Grey Mage]

Id rather take the bloodclaws on a regular basis, and we all know Im not that big a fan of them.

 

Theyre not that hard to use, its just Rhinos arent the way to do it.

 

LRCs- everyone knows this one.

 

Njal- it makes a great bodygaurd unit for him as he trundles forward in his TDA reaking havoc.

 

Footslogging- Toss on a TDA pack leader for survivability and a Wolf Priest for fun and profit, and these guys can soak up alot of firepower. Sure, you have to avoid bunching them up and keep enemy heavy artillery stunned or wrecked, but you should be doing that anyways.

 

If Im running a full squad of WGs as a replacement, its going to be 10 of them with 8 PWs and 2 PF/C-Ms in a standard Land Raider, for the best in necron destruction.

[Fenxis]

If Im running a full squad of WGs as a replacement, its going to be 10 of them with 8 PWs and 2 PF/C-Ms in a standard Land Raider, for the best in necron destruction.

 

If you upgrade all of the WG to PWs/etc... might as well go for TDA?

 

So I guess in the question of what is better assault unit; BC or PA WG, the answer is neither.

On that bombshell...

[Spazmonkey]

If Im running a full squad of WGs as a replacement, its going to be 10 of them with 8 PWs and 2 PF/C-Ms in a standard Land Raider, for the best in necron destruction.

 

If you upgrade all of the WG to PWs/etc... might as well go for TDA?

 

So I guess in the question of what is better assault unit; BC or PA WG, the answer is neither.

On that bombshell...

 

I disagree with upgrading to TDA, the point of this unit is that you have 10 guys charging out of a Land raider all with Power weapons.

You sacrfice the TDA for twice as many attacks...

[Niiai]

I see the scoring argument...

 

However I just thought that the hit on 3 instead of 4 was pretty big in the shooting face with the guns, and then the + on hitting in mellee is just also more kills. I guas the mellee argument gets thwarthed by a wolf priest in there.

 

I see however that owning 3 rhinos\razorback and 3 drop pods that I will not anytime soon start putting huge squads of eather into mellee if I need a land raider to do it...

[Godhead]

My biggest beef with BC's is when they get hit back on 3s. They just start having to make too many extra saves.

[Fenxis]

If Im running a full squad of WGs as a replacement, its going to be 10 of them with 8 PWs and 2 PF/C-Ms in a standard Land Raider, for the best in necron destruction.

 

If you upgrade all of the WG to PWs/etc... might as well go for TDA?

 

So I guess in the question of what is better assault unit; BC or PA WG, the answer is neither.

On that bombshell...

 

I disagree with upgrading to TDA, the point of this unit is that you have 10 guys charging out of a Land raider all with Power weapons.

You sacrfice the TDA for twice as many attacks...

 

 

WG w/ PA (4x power weapon attacks on charge)... 30 pts

WG w/ TDA (3x power weapon attacks on charge) ... 33 pts

 

Now, you can only hold up to 8 termies in a LRC so I'll use the savings to get to get Wolf Claws...

 

300pts for 10x PA + PW

305pts for 8x TDA + WC

 

Charging vs marines:

 

(attacks) x (to hit) x (to wound)

40 x .5 x .5 = 10 dead

 

(attacks) x (to hit w/ re-rolls) x (to wound)

25 x .75 x .5 = 9.375

 

Basically equivalent but the 2+/5+ termie armour save will keep them going...

[Thunderhawk3015]

You are also now spending more points for a unit that will now be a fire target for every heavy weapon your opponent can throw at you. Wolf Priest in the unit of claws makes them much nastier just with the number of attacks you are rolling and with my standard 15 Claw unit that 250 and a priest for 115 making my unit marginally more expensive but with more game potential as a troops choice and the rerolled missed hits just base and fearless. There are also more of them so you can afford to lose a few, with 8 wolf guard, 1-2 lost is going to be a bigger deal than 1-2 blood claws getting killed.

[Fenxis]

I see the scoring argument...

 

However I just thought that the hit on 3 instead of 4 was pretty big in the shooting face with the guns, and then the + on hitting in mellee is just also more kills. I guas the mellee argument gets thwarthed by a wolf priest in there.

 

I see however that owning 3 rhinos\razorback and 3 drop pods that I will not anytime soon start putting huge squads of eather into mellee if I need a land raider to do it...

 

IMHO;

 

If you do get Logan then look at the WG idea

If you don't get Logan then stick with GH... MotW / Wolf Standard partially offset the loss of attacks and overall GHs are much better.

[Fenxis]

You are also now spending more points for a unit that will now be a fire target for every heavy weapon your opponent can throw at you. Wolf Priest in the unit of claws makes them much nastier just with the number of attacks you are rolling and with my standard 15 Claw unit that 250 and a priest for 115 making my unit marginally more expensive but with more game potential as a troops choice and the rerolled missed hits just base and fearless. There are also more of them so you can afford to lose a few, with 8 wolf guard, 1-2 lost is going to be a bigger deal than 1-2 blood claws getting killed.

 

Lets run 13 BC (+WP for 310) :

 

(attacks) * (to-hit / oath) * (to-wound) * (unsaved)

 

52 * .75 * .5 * .33 = 6.4

3 * .85 * .5 = 1.2

 

Armour really stuffs the BC's basic weapon attacks.

[Hfran Morkai]

I'll say it again, Blood Claws definitely have their roles within an army, it's not as obvious as it used to be (back when Hunters could only ever have two attacks apiece) but it's still there.

 

I've thought about doing this myself in order to throw down a few more Special Close Combat Weapons but then I don't get that huge pack of Power Armoured warriors, which makes me a sad Wolf. I run a slogging list so those 15 bodies allow my IC to soak up more firepower before he cracks some heads.

 

The idea is alright, if you want to invest in Logan in the first place. (I take a counts-as in apocalypse, surprisingly though he acts as a Wolf Guard Battle Leader fluffwise)

[the jeske]

but if your runing a slogging sw list you are already doing something wrong . even the 11 man with rhino wall GH build is rather meh.

 

+ unless you run a WL sw HQ should never be anyway near hth. why go to a place where you can be killed when you can stay at range and buff the whole army .

[Hfran Morkai]

but if your runing a slogging sw list you are already doing something wrong .

 

Funny, I thought there wasn't really a right and wrong way to play 40K :D I know you play competitively, which I'm sure does you well and proud but I play to have a laugh, and I get that with my Wolves using their feet (and jump packs)

 

Different folks, different strokes.

[Thunderhawk3015]

If your going argue based off mathhammer then yes blood claws are useless. Unfortunately mathhammer is just that, math, you can calculate it to death but at the end of the day unless your going to experiment with them in different situations claiming them as useless based off math is shooting yourself in the foot IMO.

 

Footslogging Wolves work quite well when you can get 15 guys and a powerfist for the cost of an un modded Land Raider. Competitive play, yea your going go get creamed especially with the mech guard around tossing out ap3 marine killing templates every turn.

 

End of the day some people like Blood Claws, some people don't. I say give them a chance before shelving them because unleashing 56 regular attacks on someone is hilarity ensuing especialy when your powerfist is getting 3 re-rollable to hit attacks in addition to the 56 thanks to the Wolf Priest.

[sazzer]

I'm planning on having two units of Blood Claws - both 9 BCs + Wolf Priest + Drop Pod - backed up by four units of Grey Hunters - both 9 GH + WGPL + Rhino - in my full army. I'm only actually going to have two units on foot though - scouts and long fangs (technically - There will be a razorback but it's a 7 man squad...). Everyone else will either have Drop pod, Rhino/Land Raider or Thunderwolf...

[Fenxis]

If your going argue based off mathhammer then yes blood claws are useless. Unfortunately mathhammer is just that, math, you can calculate it to death but at the end of the day unless your going to experiment with them in different situations claiming them as useless based off math is shooting yourself in the foot IMO.

 

Footslogging Wolves work quite well when you can get 15 guys and a powerfist for the cost of an un modded Land Raider. Competitive play, yea your going go get creamed especially with the mech guard around tossing out ap3 marine killing templates every turn.

 

End of the day some people like Blood Claws, some people don't. I say give them a chance before shelving them because unleashing 56 regular attacks on someone is hilarity ensuing especialy when your powerfist is getting 3 re-rollable to hit attacks in addition to the 56 thanks to the Wolf Priest.

 

a) To dismiss 'mathhammer' is to dismiss the entire field of statistical analysis / modern decision making. As you've seen determining the expected value is incredibly easy, the only variable (and the part that is usually left out) is the risk portion, but there's too many variables here to whip up a complete analysis in a thread

 

b) You can't dismiss the mech environment as 'competive' 40k ... it's the reality of 5th ed. Vehicles are expensive and it will take a while but people will 'mech' up.

 

c) If you look at the BC entry the unique thing about it that they can have 15 man squads... more than an assault unit this makes them good tarpit. Also objective takers if you add an IC/WG into the squad so people can't bait them away.

 

Footslogging army idea:

 

1. We know that firepower is the weak link in the list so first up:

3x Long fangs

 

2. We know that we need mobility:

3x TWC

 

3. We know that we need troops:

2x BC

[sazzer]

"Mathhammer" can provide an advantage here as well. If people think that they know Blood Claws are less effective, they might well concentrate on taking other things out first instead, giving you the change to get a charge with 15 BC + WP into them - even at WS3, 60+(?) attacks with rerolls is going to hurt...

[MaleOpener]

I'm planning on having two units of Blood Claws - both 9 BCs + Wolf Priest + Drop Pod - backed up by four units of Grey Hunters - both 9 GH + WGPL + Rhino - in my full army. I'm only actually going to have two units on foot though - scouts and long fangs (technically - There will be a razorback but it's a 7 man squad...). Everyone else will either have Drop pod, Rhino/Land Raider or Thunderwolf...

 

If I remember correctly, you can't assault out of a drop pod.

 

This will make your two packs of blood claws easy targets.

[sazzer]

You can't assault from Drop pods - no :)

 

However, if they get charged themselves they are still nasty thanks to Counter Attack, and with careful placement of the drop pod and the claws, and the rest of the army generally being a pain, I'm hoping that they won't be getting shot at too much...

[the jeske]

Footslogging Wolves work quite well when you can get 15 guys and a powerfist for the cost of an un modded Land Raider. Competitive play, yea your going go get creamed especially with the mech guard around tossing out ap3 marine killing templates every turn

ok am not getting something . either there are builds using BC that work and then it means there are set ups where they work [and then I want to know how they work] or they dont work. having something that is good , but bad is illogical.

 

 

I say give them a chance before shelving them because unleashing 56 regular attacks on someone is hilarity ensuing especialy when your powerfist is getting 3 re-rollable to hit attacks in addition to the 56 thanks to the Wolf Priest.

and I ask unless they play against someone who doesnt know how to play , how are they getting those 56 attacks . Besides isnt it the job of people who test stuff[because GW wont] to tell what works and what doesnt ? Arent we doing this so people can spend less time testing[those that dont do just tournaments] or that are new and dont want to spend tons of cash on something may end up not working at all.

If people think that they know Blood Claws are less effective, they might well concentrate on taking other things out first instead, giving you the change to get a charge with 15 BC + WP into them - even at WS3, 60+(?) attacks with rerolls is going to hurt...

ok so you take BC 2 x15 two LR one razor GH units one LF for support one priest and wolf priest . how can your opponent not shot the LR ? or if your slogging ,against skimer or mecha you may never see hth . your opponent will focus fire on the LF to have a maximum number of not blown up rhinos and while your 16 man squads are slowed down by terrain and size of the squads he just contests stuff or takes it on last turn. and what happens if he slames in to the unit with his own counter unit , if he is zerker or BA he hits first and does more wounds even if the BC do counter attack . two walkers or a wright lords can tar pit the whole unit for a whole game . and that is without the BC eating template for 2-3 turns before they actualy see hth.