Thunderlords: First impression

[Grimtooth]

well honestly many people place alot of points into models that are negated if your not on the playing ground and people who think that a few power armour marines in rhinos will win the battle are loco. a competent player will have no trouble at all batting them aside.

 

like it or not thunderwolves are simply a shock and awe tactic. keep your head and they arent as scary as alot of people want to think even though im sure ramses will argue with this for the sake of arguing

 

Interestingly enough, the one trick pony faith you say I am putting into a thunderlord list, which I am not considering my use of GH, Long Fangs, and rune priest, that is exactlly what you are doing with your Logan Wing and castling tactic on objectives.

 

But hey, considering you're a Stelek nuthugger your opinions on tactics, lists, and rules are pretty useless.

[Brother Caleb]

Granted I've only used my Thunderlord/TWC pack once, and I gave them all SSs, but they absorbed fire from every enemy unit, including oblitorators and only lost one model. From my brief experience, Tunderlord/TWC w/SS makes for a mighty tough, very mobile world of pain for the enemy.

 

However, no matter how tough or prepared one is, everything comes down to the dice.

[ChainsawDR]

would appreciate a load out on a good Thunderlord and fenrisian wolf pack if anyone can offer one?

 

I've got 301 points left in a list that would suit a Thunderlord unit.

 

Cheers

 

ChainsawDR

[Grimtooth]

would appreciate a load out on a good Thunderlord and fenrisian wolf pack if anyone can offer one?

 

I've got 301 points left in a list that would suit a Thunderlord unit.

 

Cheers

 

ChainsawDR

 

Probably couldn't afford a thunderlord with those points, but a WGBL on a TWM is pretty damn effective as well against MEQ equivalent:

HQ: Wolf Guard Battle Leader in Power Armour (Unit Type: Cavalry; Krak Grenades; Runic Armour; Wolf Tail Talisman; Wolftooth Necklace; Thunderwolf Mount; Fenrisian Wolf; Frost Weapon x1; Storm Shield x1; Acute Senses; And They Shall Know No Fear; Counter-attack; Independent Character; Rending in CC only)

2 Fenrisian Wolf (Unit Type: Beasts; Vicious claws and fangs; Counter-attack)

 

Fast Attack: 9 Fenrisian Wolf Pack

Total Roster Cost: 297

 

Edit: You could also drop the Fenrisian Wolf Pack to 5 wolves and toss on Saga of the Warrior Born on your WGBL. Still leaves him with 7 ablative wounds to shooting.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

would appreciate a load out on a good Thunderlord and fenrisian wolf pack if anyone can offer one?

 

I've got 301 points left in a list that would suit a Thunderlord unit.

 

Cheers

 

ChainsawDR

300 points is enough for a loaded Thunderlord with wargear.

 

WL,TWM,RA,SS,FB,MB,WTT,WTN,SotB,2 Fenrisian Wolves = 295

 

If you give up the I5 you can get rid of MB and get a TH.

 

Thunderlords are spendy...But they can go toe to toe with just about anything on the board and win,or at the least survive.

Ive taken my thunderlord against a Tzeentch DP,Defiler and squad of thousand sons,and by the time the game was over,only the defiler was left standing,and it was missing both arms.

 

Ive gone toe to toe with 7 black templar dual lightning claw terminators,and beaten them all.

Ive faced Mephiston,and killed him.

Ive gone toe to toe with Logan Grimnir,and won (barely)

 

He has ridden through the entire firepower of a 1500 point Imperial guard mech army all firing at him,and survived. Two full rounds of leman russ's,manticores,and some other tank I can't remember,and he made it out only losing his wargear wolf.

 

Anyone who says they are just shock and awe...well..Nothing better then being underestimated.

[Grimtooth]

would appreciate a load out on a good Thunderlord and fenrisian wolf pack if anyone can offer one?

 

I've got 301 points left in a list that would suit a Thunderlord unit.

 

Cheers

 

ChainsawDR

300 points is enough for a loaded Thunderlord with wargear.

 

WL,TWM,RA,SS,FB,MB,WTT,WTN,SotB,2 Fenrisian Wolves = 295

 

If you give up the I5 you can get rid of MB and get a TH.

 

Thunderlords are spendy...But they can go toe to toe with just about anything on the board and win,or at the least survive.

Ive taken my thunderlord against a Tzeentch DP,Defiler and squad of thousand sons,and by the time the game was over,only the defiler was left standing,and it was missing both arms.

 

Ive gone toe to toe with 7 black templar dual lightning claw terminators,and beaten them all.

Ive faced Mephiston,and killed him.

Ive gone toe to toe with Logan Grimnir,and won (barely)

 

He has ridden through the entire firepower of a 1500 point Imperial guard mech army all firing at him,and survived. Two full rounds of leman russ's,manticores,and some other tank I can't remember,and he made it out only losing his wargear wolf.

 

Anyone who says they are just shock and awe...well..Nothing better then being underestimated.

 

I took it that he wanted a Fenrisian Wolf pack for ablative wounds so dropped him to a WGBL to find the points.

 

And while they are shock and awe, they are JUST not shock and awe. The rest of my 1750 SW list is coming for you as well, which is the whole point of a fairly balanced list. If one aspect of your army is not chewing your leg off, they are just distracting you while the other aspect of the army is doing the chewing.

[Vash113]

Unless your playing me then I have plenty of missiles and shooty wolves to stop anything short of 10 land raiders

 

A bunch of missile launchers is far from the most reliable anti-tank, even when you give a squad Tank Hunters your ability to negate AV 14 is quite limited. You argue that too much faith is being placed in Thunderwolf Lords but I'd say that you likewise are putting far too much faith in what is all things told, a rather uncreative gimmick army. When the shock of a bunch of Missile Launchers fades what your left with is a handful of str 8 shots that make up the vast majority of your anti-tank and leave you comparatively limited in close combat. Unless you have a ton of buildings to hide in your going to be torn to shreds and even then there's nothing stopping Blood Claws, Grey Hunters and Wolf Guard from rooting out your rooftop squads. I've rarely seen lists that included Thunderlords lose out on any balance, they aren't that much more expensive than other decked out Characters and still leave room for plenty of variety in an army list.

 

And while they are shock and awe, they are JUST not shock and awe. The rest of my 1750 SW list is coming for you as well, which is the whole point of a fairly balanced list. If one aspect of your army is not chewing your leg off, they are just distracting you while the other aspect of the army is doing the chewing.

 

Precisely, that is how a good army should function and I find the Thunderlord fits in quite nicely with most Space Wolf lists. I really didn't like the idea at first but am very tempted to build a Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf for my army now.

 

As an aside, I notice most people take Saga of the Bear, yet with straight T5 only Str 10 weapons can insta-kill him and a Thunderlord is probably better off with Saga of the Warrior Born or nothing at all to save points. Thoughts?

[Sarapham]

As an aside, I notice most people take Saga of the Bear, yet with straight T5 only Str 10 weapons can insta-kill him and a Thunderlord is probably better off with Saga of the Warrior Born or nothing at all to save points. Thoughts?

 

 

Well in a tournament list you still have to be weary of Force Weapons, Bone Swords, DA Exarches e.t.c that can get you. So it becomes a really reliable insurance that he can go up against literally anything.

[Grimtooth]

Unless your playing me then I have plenty of missiles and shooty wolves to stop anything short of 10 land raiders

 

A bunch of missile launchers is far from the most reliable anti-tank, even when you give a squad Tank Hunters your ability to negate AV 14 is quite limited. You argue that too much faith is being placed in Thunderwolf Lords but I'd say that you likewise are putting far too much faith in what is all things told, a rather uncreative gimmick army. When the shock of a bunch of Missile Launchers fades what your left with is a handful of str 8 shots that make up the vast majority of your anti-tank and leave you comparatively limited in close combat. Unless you have a ton of buildings to hide in your going to be torn to shreds and even then there's nothing stopping Blood Claws, Grey Hunters and Wolf Guard from rooting out your rooftop squads. I've rarely seen lists that included Thunderlords lose out on any balance, they aren't that much more expensive than other decked out Characters and still leave room for plenty of variety in an army list.

 

And while they are shock and awe, they are JUST not shock and awe. The rest of my 1750 SW list is coming for you as well, which is the whole point of a fairly balanced list. If one aspect of your army is not chewing your leg off, they are just distracting you while the other aspect of the army is doing the chewing.

 

Precisely, that is how a good army should function and I find the Thunderlord fits in quite nicely with most Space Wolf lists. I really didn't like the idea at first but am very tempted to build a Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf for my army now.

 

As an aside, I notice most people take Saga of the Bear, yet with straight T5 only Str 10 weapons can insta-kill him and a Thunderlord is probably better off with Saga of the Warrior Born or nothing at all to save points. Thoughts?

 

Just from my gaming group alone, I know I will be facing IG tank lines (str 10 large blast crap), vindi spam (again with the str 10 large blast), BA with libbies and force weapons, and couple of Nid players with bonesworditis. So my Saga of the Bear is just not limited to high strength stuff, but the gamut of what can cause ID.

 

If I knew I was facing about half as many as many ID happy opponents as I currently do, I would easily run Warrior Born on him and not worry about it by picking and choosing my targets better so as not to expose myself to ID as much.

[Allerka]

Couldn't have summed it up better, Vash. Thanks!

 

As for choice of Saga, I find it depends on how much support he can get. In smaller games where he's the only IC on a Thunderwolf, I generally give him Bear for the added insurance (Never know if someone's going to get a lucky shot in). In larger games, where I have multiple ICs riding wolves, I can get away with Warrior Born for some added firepower (which has definitely come in handy against larger swarms of stuff).

 

 

would appreciate a load out on a good Thunderlord and fenrisian wolf pack if anyone can offer one?

 

I've got 301 points left in a list that would suit a Thunderlord unit.

 

Cheers

 

ChainsawDR

300 points is enough for a loaded Thunderlord with wargear.

 

WL,TWM,RA,SS,FB,MB,WTT,WTN,SotB,2 Fenrisian Wolves = 295

 

If you give up the I5 you can get rid of MB and get a TH.

 

Thunderlords are spendy...But they can go toe to toe with just about anything on the board and win,or at the least survive.

Ive taken my thunderlord against a Tzeentch DP,Defiler and squad of thousand sons,and by the time the game was over,only the defiler was left standing,and it was missing both arms.

 

Ive gone toe to toe with 7 black templar dual lightning claw terminators,and beaten them all.

Ive faced Mephiston,and killed him.

Ive gone toe to toe with Logan Grimnir,and won (barely)

 

He has ridden through the entire firepower of a 1500 point Imperial guard mech army all firing at him,and survived. Two full rounds of leman russ's,manticores,and some other tank I can't remember,and he made it out only losing his wargear wolf.

 

Anyone who says they are just shock and awe...well..Nothing better then being underestimated.

Indeed. My Thunderwolf death star unit (Two Lords, WGBL, and four TWC) was charged by Vulkan, seven TH/SS terminators, and a Techmarine in a recent game. By the end of the first round of combat, I had taken one wound on one of my regular Thunderwolves and killed Vulkan, the Techmarine, and five Terminators. Against a Chaos Marine army my Thunderwolf Lord, by himself, ate Abaddon while the other ate one squad of Thousand Sons and my regular TWC ate another squad of 'em. Another game, I had my WGBL solo-kill a DP while one Lord punched holes in a Land Raider and the other killed another DP. Another game I had my ICs each fighting a separate Blood Angels Vanguard squad with full storm shields and fists or power weapons while my regular TWC engaged an Honor Guard squad with attached Chaplain. I won all four combats eventually (longest they lasted was one Vanguard squad taking two full turns to whittle down). If my death star is fully assembled, there is nothing they haven't utterly annihilated in assault yet, and they can soak up almost a full game's worth of firepower to take them down.

 

So yeah. Liiiiittle bit more than shock and awe to 'em. :lol:

[Requiem of the Wolf]

I used to give him warrior born...until the first time I played against Mephiston and had his force weapon kill me. It was annoying...

[Vash113]

Well I've never seen a Thunderlord go up against a psyker. The only time I've fought one was during a Black Crusade Battle Mission, first Lysander killed him in close combat, pummeling him down with repeated Thunder-Hammer wounds, then he was killed while charging a squad of Shooty Terminators. Wiffed and only killed 1 Terminator, took 3 wounds and then failed three 3+ saves... and that's just bad luck.

 

But I suppose Saga of the Bear would be helpful for going toe to toe with Mephiston... I'd also want a Rune Priest nearby to try to nullify some of his psychic powers but more survivability is always better.

[Allerka]

Well I've never seen a Thunderlord go up against a psyker. The only time I've fought one was during a Black Crusade Battle Mission, first Lysander killed him in close combat, pummeling him down with repeated Thunder-Hammer wounds, then he was killed while charging a squad of Shooty Terminators. Wiffed and only killed 1 Terminator, took 3 wounds and then failed three 3+ saves... and that's just bad luck.

 

But I suppose Saga of the Bear would be helpful for going toe to toe with Mephiston... I'd also want a Rune Priest nearby to try to nullify some of his psychic powers but more survivability is always better.

Ouch. That's just bad karma there. Also Runic Armor is pretty much mandatory on TWM ICs, that 2+ really does up their survivability even further.

[wolf363839]

You would have to bring that up, wouldn't you Vash, lol.

 

Yes, my hero Thunderwolf Lord managed to fail 3 out of 3 stormshield saves while also failing to do anything in CC that phase...stupid f'ing dice...it's like they were ASKING for a draw lol. This battle mission allowed all non-vehicle models to re-enter play as reserves after they are completely destroyed.

 

Before that he did manage to make some good saves and kill Lysander and some TH/SS termies, so it wasn't all bad.

 

Moral of the story, Thunderwolf Lords are DEFINITELY worth taking. I recommend Saga of the Bear so you don't lose your investment with one S 10 hit.

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

1 Wolf Lord @ 295 pts Runic Armour; Wolf Tail Talisman; Wolftooth Necklace; Thunderwolf Mount Storm Shield x1; Thunder Hammer x1 Saga of the Bear)

2 Fenrisian Wolf

 

1 Wolf Lord @ 290 pts Runic Armour; Wolf Tail Talisman; Wolftooth Necklace; Thunderwolf Mount Frost Weapon x1; Storm Shield x1 Saga of the Warrior Born)

2 Fenrisian Wolf

 

 

1 Wolf Lord @ 260 pts

Runic Armour; Wolf Tail Talisman; Thunderwolf MountPower Fist x1; Storm Shield Saga of Majesty)

2 Fenrisian Wolf

 

 

1 Rune Priest @ 140 pts Melta Bombs; Runic Armour; Runic Weapon x1; Plasma Pistol

 

Troops: Grey Hunters Pack (11#, 190 pts)

8 Grey Hunters Pack @ 190 pts Meltagun

1 Grey Hunter w/ Mark of the Wulfen

1 Rhino

 

Troops: Grey Hunters Pack (11#, 205 pts)

9 Grey Hunters Pack @ 205 ptsMeltagun; Meltagun;

1 Grey Hunter w/ Mark of the Wulfen

1 Rhino

 

Troops: Grey Hunters Pack (11#, 205 pts)

9 Grey Hunters Pack @ 205 pts Meltagun; Meltagun;

1 Grey Hunter w/ Mark of the Wulfen

1 Rhino

 

15 Fenrisian Wolf Pack @ 120 pts

 

6 Long Fangs Pack @ 140 pts Missile Launcher x5

 

6 Long Fangs Pack @ 140 pts Missile Launcher x5

 

this is the list one of my friends uses.

 

he likes to put all the lords together with the large f. wolf group and runs them up tell they are close enough and then seperates the wolf lords. he puts the insta kill attacks on the wolves and the bolter and what not on the wolf lords as much as possible. now the one tactic that has worked against him is to ignore the wolf lord deathstar for the first 2 turns while lighting up the grey hunters and slowing that threat down. once the wolf lord death star is in rapid fire range he gets lit up.

 

shock and awe lose your head lose the game

[Roland Durendal]

well honestly many people place alot of points into models that are negated if your not on the playing ground and people who think that a few power armour marines in rhinos will win the battle are loco. a competent player will have no trouble at all batting them aside.

 

like it or not thunderwolves are simply a shock and awe tactic. keep your head and they arent as scary as alot of people want to think even though im sure ramses will argue with this for the sake of arguing

 

Interestingly enough, the one trick pony faith you say I am putting into a thunderlord list, which I am not considering my use of GH, Long Fangs, and rune priest, that is exactlly what you are doing with your Logan Wing and castling tactic on objectives.

 

But hey, considering you're a Stelek nuthugger your opinions on tactics, lists, and rules are pretty useless.

 

 

Hey now I read and enjoy Stelek's articles (and find them very useful) and yet I still disagree with Betrayed's ideas somewhat, mainly because last time I checked buildings and ruins canbe destroyed and treat the occupants as if they were in a transport, which means they can be pinned. Also, IIRC (my rulebook is at home) if you destroy a building, they are no longer on the top floor but on ground level, so open to assault from TWC.

 

As for loadouts, here's my wolf lord at 245 points:

Wolf Lord, TWM, WC, SS, WTT, WTN, Saga of Warrior Born

 

He pretty much eats everyting alive. With T5 and a 3++ save I haven't really needed to worry about being ID'd with him. Yes there's a lot of S10 out there and force weapons can still ID him, but by and large those S10 weapons are usually going for my mech threats or my long range AT threats (i.e. the things that could take out that S10 platform with ease) and most FW wielding guys strike after my I5 lord (exception being Mephy).

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

note on the ruins and buildings. i dont know personally about yalls neck of the woods but how many people actually use the building rules? its never showed up in the south east as far as i've been to play and thats ranging from ms, fl, ga, al.

also ruins cant be destroyed

[ChainsawDR]

Couple of questions...

 

Wolf Tail Talisman - I haven't got my Codex to hand so can't quote to points, but are these worth it?

 

Has anyone ever tried running a Thunderlord with 2 Fenrisian Wolves and attached them to an Iron Priest TWM with 4 Cyber Wolves? If so how has it worked out for you? I ask because I already have the Iron Priest TWM, WTN & 4 Cyber Wolves in my army list so the 300 points could go on a thunderlord... It'd be alot of points but the 2 FW's would be majority T5. The IP would swing the thunderhammer whilst the thunderlord would have FB & SS - any thoughts?

 

Cheers

 

ChainsawDR

[Allerka]

Couple of questions...

 

Wolf Tail Talisman - I haven't got my Codex to hand so can't quote to points, but are these worth it?

They're ten. It depends on what you're fighting. Other Marines or low-WS armies (Eldar, Tau, and Guard), generally not, but against Tyranids or Daemons or other armies with lots of near-max WS models, totally worth it. Of course, that's half the fun of tournaments, you never know what you're going up against in the next round, so plan for the worst (and hope for the best <_< ).

[Roland Durendal]

Couple of questions...

 

Wolf Tail Talisman - I haven't got my Codex to hand so can't quote to points, but are these worth it?

They're ten. It depends on what you're fighting. Other Marines or low-WS armies (Eldar, Tau, and Guard), generally not, but against Tyranids or Daemons or other armies with lots of near-max WS models, totally worth it. Of course, that's half the fun of tournaments, you never know what you're going up against in the next round, so plan for the worst (and hope for the best :) ).

 

Wrong item. You're mixing Wolf Tooth Necklace with the Wolf Tail Talisman

 

Wolf Tooth Necklace is cheap and a must have for your HQs. Ability to strike anything with a WS on a 3+ means from lowly Eldar Guardians (who you're already going to hit omn 3+ anyway) to that WS7 Mephy, you hit them all the same. Plus hitting Dreads on a 3+ is nice (especially if you got that Thunderhammer)

 

Wolf Tail Talisman is another key piece of kit as it gives the bearer and his unit a very beneficial psychic defensive save. It is also fairly cheap too

[Allerka]

Wrong item. You're mixing Wolf Tooth Necklace with the Wolf Tail Talisman

 

Wolf Tooth Necklace is cheap and a must have for your HQs. Ability to strike anything with a WS on a 3+ means from lowly Eldar Guardians (who you're already going to hit omn 3+ anyway) to that WS7 Mephy, you hit them all the same. Plus hitting Dreads on a 3+ is nice (especially if you got that Thunderhammer)

 

Wolf Tail Talisman is another key piece of kit as it gives the bearer and his unit a very beneficial psychic defensive save. It is also fairly cheap too

And again I'm reminded of why I need to stop posting before breakfast. :)

 

Yes, the Talismans are absolutely worth it, especially since they stack (So my Thunderwolf death star, having three ICs with talismans, would get three shots at negating something affecting them, if my Rune Priest didn't already shut it down). Sucky thing is, though, it has to be a power that directly affects them, so something like Sanguine Sword that makes that BA Librarian S10 for a round, you couldn't use the Talismans to stop it (You'd have to go the old-fashioned route and punch him in the face).

[Sarapham]

Couple of questions...

 

Wolf Tail Talisman - I haven't got my Codex to hand so can't quote to points, but are these worth it?

They're ten. It depends on what you're fighting. Other Marines or low-WS armies (Eldar, Tau, and Guard), generally not, but against Tyranids or Daemons or other armies with lots of near-max WS models, totally worth it. Of course, that's half the fun of tournaments, you never know what you're going up against in the next round, so plan for the worst (and hope for the best :) ).

 

No you are thinking of Wolf Tooth Necklace (since they are very easy to mix up so I understand), Wolf Tail Talisman is 5p and is basically an extra 5+ invuln save against most psychic powers that affect the model and the squad he is with. And thats just the thing that makes it great as it can give extra psychic defense to the whole squad he is with... a good deal for 5 points.

[ChainsawDR]

cool thanks, I'll see if I can fit it in. Any thoughts on the Thunderlord with 2 FW joining an IP Thunderwolf with 4 Cyber Wolves?

 

I'm trying to work out if its better value for points-effectiveness compared to Arjac, a LRR and 10 GH's (which will be 150-200 pts more).

[Howling]

Oh well.....usually I run my Thunderlord with a group of 5 Thunderwolfs...accompanied by 2 packs of 10 fenriswolves.....followed by the rest of my army in rhinos n stuff... (covered by Longfangs and a small runepriest+5 greyhunter with plasmagun squad in a razorback staying in the back)

 

My gamesworkshop is full with 2-3 level ruins of all kind and form and actually most of our battlefields are build with them....but until now I have only encountered 4-5 units cowering in the 2-3nd floor to stay away from my wolves....and even when they did...the rest of their army ended up dead, leaving the poor fellows to cover and wait for my greyhunters n stuff to finish them off...which usually happens in the same turn my wolflord would have slaughtered them...or one round later...

 

 

The good thing about Thunderwolf Models in general is that they are not only scare&fear units like for example Carnifexes (yes...since they only have a 3+ save now they completely lost their danger factor to me...) but really DO pack a punch...if you just go and think "Meh...they're scarry but I can take them on" you'll get crushed by them 90% of the time....and after 2-3 games every player in your store knows about it and reacts acording to it....

 

From that moment on everyone in your store will truly fear the Thunderwolves and either try to avoid them or will try to overpower them as soon as possible.....either way you've won. If they shoot everything they've got at it (which in a 2000 points army most of the time isn't even enough to fully kill the squad + lord in 1-2 turns) the rest of your army marches unharmed...and if they try to avoid them (which is pretty hard anyways since they've got insane range...) they're scattered and ready to get beaten up by the rest of your army.....and once bound by the rest of the army you can still get your thunderwolves into cc the next turn and turn on the heat...

 

So yeah....until now my thunderwolves have ALWAYS gotten their points back for me...usually doubling them and winning the game as they did.....the only time they didn't do so was when I played against a combined force of Chaos and Bloodangels (HERESY!) in an apocalypse game and was like "Meh...who gives a damn...CHARGE STRAIGHT IN! FOR RUSS AND THE ALLFATHER!" and charged right into a ful squad of death company + berserkers...... They killed the deathcompany and then got destroyed as my enemies turned on them with a full squad of chaos terminators (+lord) + Mephiston (in addition to the zerkers)....but heck, that was like double their points attacking them....and left all of his army in the open, ready to be picked apart by my plasmas n stuff...which made me win the day afterwards ^^ so...they kinda were worth their points there too....

 

 

So yeah...all I can say is...if the game is 1750+... my thunderlord +thunderwolves is a 100% guaranteed sight...and my whole store loves and fears them by now (depending on which side they're fighting)

[Godhead]

I've ran a WGBL with an IP on a TWM. I like it decently enough, but if someone pumps attacks into the unit and not your IC, as soon as the IP has to take a save and either can't or manages to fail, then the cyberwolves go away.

 

Also when it comes to pumping warrior born onto a model I prefer it to be a WGBL. He's 30 points less than a WL so the saga ends up being only 5 points, and if you're running warrior born then you don't miss the extra attack the lord has and the extra wound is debateable at best.