ICs, Rhinos and low point games

[Ookami_81]

Hello everybody.

 

On my last battle vs Orks I noticed something important that was annoying me in low pts army lists. It doesn't really hamper me, (I'm still winning ;)), but it's kind of annoying.

 

Basically, when you don't own many scouts, in 500 pts games all you've got for a PA army is 2 basic tactical squads, 1 HQ, and a transport vehicle.

 

I usually run a Razorback with half a tactical and a libby, the rest of my guys are footslogging.

 

Problem is: if you don't want to combat squad your tacticals, and want for them armour protection and mobility, well... you can't, cause a Rhino is a 10 man transport, not eleven or twelve. So either you combat squad + razor, or you leave your IC alone and take him just to have him killed by the inevitable high energy shot in his face turn 1.

This, and you want him close to the enemy in order to use either psychic power or CC prowess. I tried to imagine a full 10 man tactical in a Rhino and a IC running after them, but, really, do you imagine your costly IC running after his protective squad in a "hey, guys, you forgot me!" fashion...

 

How do you tweak your own low points lists to avoid this trap ? I can figure "using a drop pod" is kind of a solution, but I don't consider drop pod a "mobile" transport. IMHO this vehicle is more a "deploy later where you want" device than a true transport allowing redeployment.

 

I'm not concerned with bigger lists, because I usually run a biker captain + bike squad, even in 750 pts (it's tough, though...).

[mowglie]

Yep, that's one of the big problems with the vanilla codex. Getting a HQ that really clicks in small-point games is hard.

 

My advice is:-

1) A 5-man tactical squad in a razorback with a tooled-up sergeant isn't as bad as you think it is.

2) 5 CCW Scouts in a Storm are cheap to buy, and are 150-ish points worth of mobile, flexible, troops choice.

3) If you're a big heretic, you could always use the Blood Angels codex. They have much better options for sub-150-pt troops!

 

I usually play:-

 

100 - Librarian

245 - Tactical Squad (10 models, ML, Flamer, Combi-flamer, Power Fist, Razorback)

100 - Scout Squad (5 models, Power Fist, BP&CCW)

50 - Land Speeder Storm

[ShinyRhino]

A cheap, basic, footslogging Chaplain can really bost a 5-man tactical combat squad with an upgraded sergeant. Give the sergeant meltabombs and a power weapon. The chaplain adds Fearless, and rerolls to hit on the charge. Fearless mitigates the fact that you'll be taking Morale tests on almost every casualty after the first one, and the reroll helps the sergeant ensure he hist in close combat with that power weapon. The chaplain himself also owns a power weapon, and gets an invulnerable save that you can use against plasma and such.

[Ookami_81]

You sure Shiny Rhino ? Usually I avoid footslogging chappies at all costs because on a 5 man tactical he doesn't usually add that much power, and the fearless rule make the poor guys dying pretty fast against anything not tauish in CC...

I may have a biaised opinion because I usually play against orks, but it seems to me that the main drawback of a combat squad is its low survivability, exceptionnaly in CC, and adding a chaplain is just worsening this.

 

Mowglie, I also have the BA codex, and I would know what troops are good at sub-150 pts... In my understanding of their codex, I found that they are even more expensive than vanilla marines ! Do you think 5 men assault squads ? or 3 Death company guys ? (well, troops, but useless for objectives...)

 

In the battle I'm speaking about, I killed a full 5 nob retinue with avenger libby + flamer + bolt pistols + charge, then their klawed big boss wiped everyone out, then blew their razorback, then the other combat squad, then attack my other (full) tactical squad and finally died the last of his/its brethen letting only four marines alive.

 

I won, him tabled on turn 7, but with only four models on my side kept alive, that's not a marine victory ! Was I just totally unlucky ?

[Meatman]

The razorback has transport capacity of 6. 5 tactical marines and a chaplain will fit snuggly. I'd recommend cassius at this point, 25 points more for T6, combi-flamer, and feel no pain? Yes please.

[mowglie]

Mowglie, I also have the BA codex, and I would know what troops are good at sub-150 pts... In my understanding of their codex, I found that they are even more expensive than vanilla marines ! Do you think 5 men assault squads ? or 3 Death company guys ? (well, troops, but useless for objectives...)

 

130 pts - Assault Squad (5 models, Meltagun, Razorback)

 

Substantially more useful than:-

 

130 pts - Tactical Squad (5 models, Razorback)

 

As I say, you can give the 5-man tactical squad a 1-shot special weapon for 10pts, or a power fist for 25, but the BA dex gives you a cheap fast razorback. You could run three of those in a list with a Librarian and have a handful of points left over for toys.

 

Alternately, since their assault squads are troops, you can play full squads with a JP IC.

 

Also:-

 

I won, him tabled on turn 7, but with only four models on my side kept alive, that's not a marine victory ! Was I just totally unlucky ?

 

Sounds like you won to me. Four models is like a fifth of your army. You'd prefer that our codex was so imbalanced that you tabled him on turn 2 without taking any casualties?

[Brother Xeones]

A cheap, basic, footslogging Chaplain can really bost a 5-man tactical combat squad with an upgraded sergeant. Give the sergeant meltabombs and a power weapon. The chaplain adds Fearless, and rerolls to hit on the charge. Fearless mitigates the fact that you'll be taking Morale tests on almost every casualty after the first one, and the reroll helps the sergeant ensure he hist in close combat with that power weapon. The chaplain himself also owns a power weapon, and gets an invulnerable save that you can use against plasma and such.

 

Yeah, I can't say I agree with you here either ShinyRhino. Putting a chaplain in your squad gears the squad more for close combat, which I don't think is a good thing for tacticals to attempt as their primary role. I'd rather put a librarian in there to add some shooting power instead. It blends much better with the way Tacs are designed to function to begin with —shoot first, and charge in later to mop up if necessary. Cassius might be a slightly better option than a stock chappie, but I'd still be likely to take a libbrarian instead if he's hangin' with tacs.

 

Or go for a cheap master of the forge and give your serge a power weapon instead of the expensive fist. Let the MotF do the fisting and save a few points.

[Ookami_81]

A cheap, basic, footslogging Chaplain can really bost a 5-man tactical combat squad with an upgraded sergeant. Give the sergeant meltabombs and a power weapon. The chaplain adds Fearless, and rerolls to hit on the charge. Fearless mitigates the fact that you'll be taking Morale tests on almost every casualty after the first one, and the reroll helps the sergeant ensure he hist in close combat with that power weapon. The chaplain himself also owns a power weapon, and gets an invulnerable save that you can use against plasma and such.

 

Yeah, I can't say I agree with you here either ShinyRhino. Putting a chaplain in your squad gears the squad more for close combat, which I don't think is a good thing for tacticals to attempt as their primary role. I'd rather put a librarian in there to add some shooting power instead. It blends much better with the way Tacs are designed to function to begin with —shoot first, and charge in later to mop up if necessary. Cassius might be a slightly better option than a stock chappie, but I'd still be likely to take a libbrarian instead if he's hangin' with tacs.

 

Or go for a cheap master of the forge and give your serge a power weapon instead of the expensive fist. Let the MotF do the fisting and save a few points.

 

I like the idea of a MoTF, unfortunately I don't own one. I'll try to proxy one to see how he performs.

 

Ha, and, for Mowglie, that's no that I'm complaining for the losses (well a little in a sense), that's just that I find "strange" to exterminate an entire army in two turns, without ANY casualty, and losing 4/5th of my own army from a single guy, be it a Big Boss with a Big Klaw! And since the guy really kills marines (instant death), fluffwise I lost definitely 17 guys from my chapter, no wounded, only "crushed and cut in many parts" guys. Maybe it seems strange to you but I think really in a fluffy way, and the 17 definite losses saddened me. :(

 

Well, maybe 17 marines including a libby to wipe out two truks and their load, including a big boss is a fair price to pay...

 

To add to the oddness of this battle many boyz were killed by a plasma cannon, but despite the missile launcher, the PC and the plasma rifle, the humble bolters made the two truk kills ! ;)

[Hellios]

A cheap, basic, footslogging Chaplain can really bost a 5-man tactical combat squad with an upgraded sergeant. Give the sergeant meltabombs and a power weapon. The chaplain adds Fearless, and rerolls to hit on the charge. Fearless mitigates the fact that you'll be taking Morale tests on almost every casualty after the first one, and the reroll helps the sergeant ensure he hist in close combat with that power weapon. The chaplain himself also owns a power weapon, and gets an invulnerable save that you can use against plasma and such.

 

Yeah, I can't say I agree with you here either ShinyRhino. Putting a chaplain in your squad gears the squad more for close combat, which I don't think is a good thing for tacticals to attempt as their primary role. I'd rather put a librarian in there to add some shooting power instead. It blends much better with the way Tacs are designed to function to begin with —shoot first, and charge in later to mop up if necessary. Cassius might be a slightly better option than a stock chappie, but I'd still be likely to take a libbrarian instead if he's hangin' with tacs.

 

Or go for a cheap master of the forge and give your serge a power weapon instead of the expensive fist. Let the MotF do the fisting and save a few points.

 

The problem is... if you come against an army that will out shoot you in 500pts your primary role is now combat... That is the great thing out space marines... they are jacks of all trades (especially tactical squads)... the weakness of space marines being ace of none. I personally would go with a librarian because he adds both CC and shooting... hmmmm avenger... yummm...

[ShinyRhino]

A cheap, basic, footslogging Chaplain can really bost a 5-man tactical combat squad with an upgraded sergeant. Give the sergeant meltabombs and a power weapon. The chaplain adds Fearless, and rerolls to hit on the charge. Fearless mitigates the fact that you'll be taking Morale tests on almost every casualty after the first one, and the reroll helps the sergeant ensure he hist in close combat with that power weapon. The chaplain himself also owns a power weapon, and gets an invulnerable save that you can use against plasma and such.

 

Yeah, I can't say I agree with you here either ShinyRhino. Putting a chaplain in your squad gears the squad more for close combat, which I don't think is a good thing for tacticals to attempt as their primary role. I'd rather put a librarian in there to add some shooting power instead. It blends much better with the way Tacs are designed to function to begin with —shoot first, and charge in later to mop up if necessary. Cassius might be a slightly better option than a stock chappie, but I'd still be likely to take a libbrarian instead if he's hangin' with tacs.

 

Or go for a cheap master of the forge and give your serge a power weapon instead of the expensive fist. Let the MotF do the fisting and save a few points.

 

Well, it is a 500 point game. The OP wanted a cheap HQ that wasn't left out in the cold. In a 500 point game, played on a 4x4 board,close combat is a guarantee, not a possibility. I figured having SOME close combat boost would help.

I didn't htink of the dirt-cheap stock Librarian, though. With the right power selections, he can be very good in a 500 point game.

[Brother Xeones]

The problem is... if you come against an army that will out shoot you in 500pts your primary role is now combat... That is the great thing out space marines... they are jacks of all trades (especially tactical squads)... the weakness of space marines being ace of none. I personally would go with a librarian because he adds both CC and shooting... hmmmm avenger... yummm...

 

I don't see this as much of a problem. If you are going up against an army that will out shoot you, chances are you are already better than they are at combat. As you say, this is the great thing about space marines. With a solid statline, chances are good you'll be able to find something that you do better than your opponent. In this instance a CC HQ is nice, but maybe not even necessary to win combat. Against Tau for instance, you're already going to be cleaning there little blue clocks with or without a chaplain.

 

However, reversing your logic, what if you go up against a force that is better at close combat than your very generic tac squad and choppy HQ? I mean, this scenario isn't really that much of a stretch right? Then your chappy does nothing for you for most of the game as you try to avoid CC long enough to whittle down their numbers by shooting.

 

Well, it is a 500 point game. The OP wanted a cheap HQ that wasn't left out in the cold. In a 500 point game, played on a 4x4 board,close combat is a guarantee, not a possibility. I figured having SOME close combat boost would help.

I agree with everything you're saying here. Small boards all but guarantee CC at some point, but as I stated above, when you run into someone who wants to get into close combat with you, isn't it usually a better idea to shoot them rather than playing to their strength? And, if it is you who are initiating assault, you're probably already stronger at CC then your opponent, yes? Plus, the Librarian or MotF are really no slouches when it comes to CC --albeit they lack the nice 4++ and the squad buffing perks the chaplain possesses.

 

This is why I advocate using a librarian or MotF for running with tacs. They can both be kitted for decent shooting and assault which, in my opinion, meshes better with the tac squad's nature.

[Velkairiwyth]

My 2c :)

 

I quite like taking 5-man squads in Razorbacks. Throw a combi-weapon on the sgt, and put your heavy weapon on the transport. My guys will only get out when that firepower is needed, otherwise they sit inside and bide their time. If I have a librarian, they tend to sit with these guys as cheap bodyguards and perform their null zone/psychic hoodyness through the hull.

 

If I take any other HQs - they tend to be more CC focused so I will treat them as such - tossing them in with Terminators or a razorback squad that is better kitted for melee (as proposed, fisty sgt - or command squad.)

 

At the moment I have been experimenting with Khan in my army and have found him to be pretty effective in a tooled up command squad outflanking in a rhino (6 men in rhino - 2 melta guns to pop vehicles from behind out the top hatch when necessary)

 

My next experimentation will be plasma gunning biker command squad that outflanks and gets into melee on the reserve roll. As long as the unit is in melee its not taking shots so lack of transport is not an issue. If needed there are storm shields, and T5 on everyone - turbo boosting if really necessary for 3+cover.

 

My combat patrol list (400 point game) consists of 5 tacticals and a librarian in a Razorback, and a Razorback with 5 sternguard. The librarian provides a template attack (or assault 4 ap2 smite if i want it instead.), and can gate the unit around if needed. The sgts have power fists, and if I remember correctly, combi-meltas for transport popping. Even though the numbers are low (11 infantry and 2 transports) they should work quite well as they are versatile, and the sternguard are veterans so can hold their own in melee aswell as bringing the special ammunition to the table.

 

I wish I could say my tactics of including HQs into transports works but my win-rate is pretty abysmal at the moment, although its picking up as I experiment :P - Khan in a Rhino with command squad has seemed well worth it, you just gotta remember, it might not be full (I see armies with 7/8 troops in a rhino - sacrificing the free special / heavy weapon but its not always a waste) but you can shoot through the roof-hatch, and unless your exposed taking fire or trying to tar-pit something that will be killing your guys with speed, the lower numbers dont matter too much. (although KP missions = a pain...)

 

Im waffling.

 

enjoy! :P

[Hellios]

The problem is... if you come against an army that will out shoot you in 500pts your primary role is now combat... That is the great thing out space marines... they are jacks of all trades (especially tactical squads)... the weakness of space marines being ace of none. I personally would go with a librarian because he adds both CC and shooting... hmmmm avenger... yummm...

 

I don't see this as much of a problem. If you are going up against an army that will out shoot you, chances are you are already better than they are at combat. As you say, this is the great thing about space marines. With a solid statline, chances are good you'll be able to find something that you do better than your opponent. In this instance a CC HQ is nice, but maybe not even necessary to win combat. Against Tau for instance, you're already going to be cleaning there little blue clocks with or without a chaplain.

 

 

 

Well in my larger non BT list that has a Chappy... I use him for counter-assault and this is a chappy with the old I kick your face stats. I would be shooting for 2 or 3 turns at the [iNSERT CC ENEMY HERE] as they got to me and by the time they reach me with the addition of the chaplain I shouldn't have any problem mopping them up... even if they have boneswords and lashwhips... yay 4+ inv save! The question is how much damage you will do with the libby before he gets into combat... as I said personally I like the libby... I've played a lot of combat patrol (so what you can take is slightly different) but a libby with gate and avenger is awesome... although I find 6 plasma cannons to also be pretty good. As I say personally I prefer the Libby... but I also think a chappy is a good investment... I seriously don't think his fearlessness is a negative... by the time you get into combat with a combat force... their shouldn't be so much left from shooting that the chappy and his squad wont win anyway.

[mowglie]

their shouldn't be so much left from shooting that the chappy and his squad wont win anyway.

 

And therein lies the rub.

 

There shouldn't be so much left from shooting that the squad without the chappy won't win anyway.

 

Why win more?

[Brother Xeones]

Well in my larger non BT list that has a Chappy... I use him for counter-assault and this is a chappy with the old I kick your face stats. I would be shooting for 2 or 3 turns at the [iNSERT CC ENEMY HERE] as they got to me and by the time they reach me with the addition of the chaplain I shouldn't have any problem mopping them up... even if they have boneswords and lashwhips... yay 4+ inv save! The question is how much damage you will do with the libby before he gets into combat... as I said personally I like the libby... I've played a lot of combat patrol (so what you can take is slightly different) but a libby with gate and avenger is awesome... although I find 6 plasma cannons to also be pretty good. As I say personally I prefer the Libby... but I also think a chappy is a good investment... I seriously don't think his fearlessness is a negative... by the time you get into combat with a combat force... their shouldn't be so much left from shooting that the chappy and his squad wont win anyway.

 

I get what you are saying. I even agree with most of it. My conclusions are just different. My issue is mostly with the fact that we're talking about small points games with mechanization. 500 points means that the two troops choices you must take are just about all you can take. This means tacticals or scouts. Of those two choices, the only option with tranport for itself and an IC are the tacs. Since tacs are not CC focused troops, I'm more likely to choose an HQ that compliments their middle-of-the-road status rather than pushing them more toward close combat. Maybe this is more just personal preference than anything else, but that's how I see it.

 

I'd be much more likely to take a chaplain if we had troops that were geared for CC like Wolves or Blood Angels, but since we don't, I'll usually be leaving the chaplains on the shelf under these particular circumstances.