Lessons learned from playing BA?

[Einholt]

I love the fact that everyone here has different ideas as what works and what doesn't. We don't have to all have cookie-cutter lists, there are options so people can use what they like/what works for them.

 

This perhaps deserves a separate topic... but did any of you see the Darkwynn Blood Angels list that was recently on BOLS?

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2010/06/dar...able-blood.html

 

You might remember he is the "leaf blower" creator. Do you believe his "cookie cutter" list there is ultimately bad for us, or the reputation of our codex? There is soo much vitrol heated discussion in the comments that it hurts to read.

 

Stelek ripped that list apart for the tripe it is http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2010/06/co...way-part-i.html

 

Made me giggle anyway, I myself saw the BOLS post, read it and thought "huh?"

[wookielips]

So far the things I've liked most about playing the BA are:

1) troop choices with JP. I've yet to play a game where I didn't have at least a 10 man ASM/priest unit with JP. Love their mobility and the SP really pushes them over the top.

2) SP with PW's. I don't feel right leaving SP's in transports and I justify the 15 points as protection for my 50pt IC. The PW on the SP ALWAYS surprises my opponents and he generally does pretty well in killing department.

3) Assault Cannons, love em. 4 very accurate shots that have a good shot at destroying or at least disrupting just about any vehicle on the table, plus with all fast rhino chasis they have a very respectable range. I can think of better anti-tank and anti-troop options but not much that can do both as well as the asscan.

4)Psychic powers, specifically Shield of Sanguinius and Blood Lance. I take great pleasure in Drop Podding in a Librarian (furioso or otherwise) in on turn one and destroying a line of vehicles. Worked last week on a pair of dreadnoughts like a charm, destroying one and immobilizing the other. Shield is a great resource as well, it's saved more than a handful of my Angels.

5) Mephiston. Not only is he a lot of fun to play with, it's pretty entertaining to hear opponents reactions when you explain how he works or list his stat line (especially if they have little or no psychic defense).

6) DC, I know a lot of people don't care to run DC in their lists but I've had great results so far. Super killy unit and with a chaplain (preferably a reclusiarch for me) they mulch nearly everything in their way. Not to mention they give you access to the DC dread which is so much fun to play. Once again watching people reactions when they think they have stunned/immobilized him or when they realize that he has fleet are priceless. Too bad rage has to spoil all the DC's fun, used carefully though they can be devastating.

 

Just a few conceptions from a new WH40k player, I'm sure their are more I'm missing. I really wish their was a storm raven model I think they would be veery fun to play with.

 

i agree with all of this, except:

 

Not to mention they give you access to the DC dread which is so much fun to play. Once again watching people reactions when they think they have stunned/immobilized him or when they realize that he has fleet are priceless.

 

fleet does not change being immobilized. wish it did.

[SamaNagol]

I have come to realise that, despite it making me feel queasy, SPs in combat isn't a bad thing if you do indeed give them a PW and make sure you place them correctly before making an assault move so they don't engage enemy models with special weapons. 3+/4+FnP is pretty darned good.

 

And Corbulo is practically immortal when in b2b with models only swinging mundane CC attacks.

[daboarder]

yup mine have yet to die despite being thrown into combat against whatever in about 8 games now.

[Morticon]

Stelek ripped that list apart for the tripe it is

 

Made me giggle anyway, I myself saw the BOLS post, read it and thought "huh?"

 

The list is solid enough. Dont know if it will win a ardboys though.

Its not the best in the world, by any standards, and it doesnt play into the BA strengths as much as it should.

He has self admitted problems, which will see him get into trouble, but he still has a lot of mobility, and a lot of hard hitting units.

There are plenty of changes i'd make personally, but the list isn't awful and him getting through is testament to that.

He is metagaming for the leafblower - and I think thats not too bad. I think this list has a VERY good chance of taking the Leafblower list (if he goes first :D ).

 

If he does win with this list though, then big, big credit to him.

I'll have a tiny bit more respect for him than with the plug and play leafblower list.

 

 

To answer another posters question:

Do you believe his "cookie cutter" list there is ultimately bad for us, or the reputation of our codex?

 

No, I dont think so at all. The combination of stuff he has chosen is not unpleasant to play against. It may be a tad on the dull side. But its going to be a fight regardless of what happens and gonna be a good, hard fight for some armies. Certain min-maxed combos will cut it down, but everything is a threat. Id be interested to see what happens.

 

Will be interesting to see what Jawa takes too.

[daboarder]

Personaly I don't think either stelek OR darkwynn are very good players to rate our codex By. Darkwynn is probably one of those responsible for BOLS becoming more of a "how to mercilessly crush your opponent and suck the fun out of the game" site in the last year or so. And stelek while he may have points as valid as you or I, well let me say that anyone who makes a conscious effort to type that much swearing and profanity has the mental restraint of a ten year old. The most important thing about this though is that for the most part they are theoryhammer BA's, darkwynn is just using the BA's for Ard boyz with goatboys "latest codex goatmarines" IIRC. And stelek's lists are entirely theory based.

[Ultramarcos]

I don't know if he have or have not merit on playing with BAs, but IMHO any list with 5x full loaded RAS in Rhino is worth the respect. I would change some stuffs from this list as well.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Personaly I don't think either stelek OR darkwynn are very good players to rate our codex By. Darkwynn is probably one of those responsible for BOLS becoming more of a "how to mercilessly crush your opponent and suck the fun out of the game" site in the last year or so. And stelek while he may have points as valid as you or I, well let me say that anyone who makes a conscious effort to type that much swearing and profanity has the mental restraint of a ten year old. The most important thing about this though is that for the most part they are theoryhammer BA's, darkwynn is just using the BA's for Ard boyz with goatboys "latest codex goatmarines" IIRC. And stelek's lists are entirely theory based.

 

Wow ...you couldn't have said any better my feelings on the subject.

[Dingareth]

Personaly I don't think either stelek OR darkwynn are very good players to rate our codex By. Darkwynn is probably one of those responsible for BOLS becoming more of a "how to mercilessly crush your opponent and suck the fun out of the game" site in the last year or so. And stelek while he may have points as valid as you or I, well let me say that anyone who makes a conscious effort to type that much swearing and profanity has the mental restraint of a ten year old. The most important thing about this though is that for the most part they are theoryhammer BA's, darkwynn is just using the BA's for Ard boyz with goatboys "latest codex goatmarines" IIRC. And stelek's lists are entirely theory based.

 

Soooo, because someone swears, they don't know what they're talking about? Well, that's a new one. Also, Darkwynn can hardly be held responsible for every uncreative jerk copying his list. He put it up there for context of his battle reports, and I'm glad that he did. It just makes IG easier to beat. THat list is so fragile, and starts to fall apart against a Reserve army- the kind I play!

 

So I'd say that they are both actually very good players, (although one tends to get luckier than the other, and get matched up more favorably) and that either one of them probably have valid input to share about the new book. Of course, after that list that Darkywnn posted, I'm inclined to go eat my words...

[Morticon]

Soooo, because someone swears, they don't know what they're talking about?

 

Thats not what he said at all. He said a person that does such has the mental restraint of a 10year old.

 

But once again guys- lets keep it on track please.

[x01848m]

Things that have worked for me:

 

HQ: Mephiston and Dante have both been great, but usually in 1750+ pt games. For small point games, 1500 or less, Librarian with Jump Pack or in terminator armor. At first I took him with Unleash Rage and Blood Lance, but now I am moving towards taking Fear of the Darkness instead of Blood Lance, since I have enough melta and I am sick of Nob Bikers.

 

Elite: SP w/ PW's, and JP if using a mostly JP list. Terminators if I take the Libby in terminator armor, with Cyclone Missile Launcher. I plan to start trying Corbulo out, since I have heard how well he has worked out for others to help get that first turn.

 

Troops: 2-3 squads of 9 or 10-man RAS with melta and TH, w/ priests, and one Tac Sqd for objective holding. I have been going back and forth about whether to take JP's, Rhinos, or RB's for the RAS, and have used JP's the most. But if taking JP's, I no longer deep strike in (has not worked at all for me, making it highly unlikely I get the charge in first). If I take Dante, then one Sanguinary Guard squad w/ Ch banner and two IP's, which I always deep strike in.

 

Fast Attack: Baal Preds for the most part, hands down. Sometimes a pair of Landspeeders w/ Typhoon Missile Launchers.

 

Heavy Support: Love the rifleman dreadnought - key for taking down transports and side armor on tanks.

[Dark Mechanicum]

Been using them for my Night Lords (I know i'm horrible) but the question that came up was: Does a Furioso Librarian lose all options for the wargear when the Furioso become the Librarian. So no FL with Frag Cannon or Magna Grapple. I dont run them in my list but it came up with some other people?

[Zid]

Things I've learned:

 

1) Assault Marines are ALWAYS better than Tacs

2) Dread libbys aren't that great... but furiosos w/ talons or fists are great for the points!

3) Sang priests are a must at any point level... they make BA so much beefier!

4) Stormravens are totally underestimated; turboboosting POTMS skimmer is godly!

5) Don't run BA like SW doing the razorback spam <_< Its not punchy enough

[Andrew_Beck]

Things that have worked for me:

 

HQ: Mephiston and Dante have both been great, but usually in 1750+ pt games. For small point games, 1500 or less, Librarian with Jump Pack or in terminator armor. At first I took him with Unleash Rage and Blood Lance, but now I am moving towards taking Fear of the Darkness instead of Blood Lance, since I have enough melta and I am sick of Nob Bikers.

 

Elite: SP w/ PW's, and JP if using a mostly JP list. Terminators if I take the Libby in terminator armor, with Cyclone Missile Launcher. I plan to start trying Corbulo out, since I have heard how well he has worked out for others to help get that first turn.

 

Troops: 2-3 squads of 9 or 10-man RAS with melta and TH, w/ priests, and one Tac Sqd for objective holding. I have been going back and forth about whether to take JP's, Rhinos, or RB's for the RAS, and have used JP's the most. But if taking JP's, I no longer deep strike in (has not worked at all for me, making it highly unlikely I get the charge in first). If I take Dante, then one Sanguinary Guard squad w/ Ch banner and two IP's, which I always deep strike in.

 

Fast Attack: Baal Preds for the most part, hands down. Sometimes a pair of Landspeeders w/ Typhoon Missile Launchers.

 

Heavy Support: Love the rifleman dreadnought - key for taking down transports and side armor on tanks.

 

same with the rifleman (if it mean 2*TLAC), but I never field any tactical marines.

[Resv]

My current favorite unit to use is a full 10 man Assault Squad with JPs and a Sang. Priest and Librarian attached. Though a matter of some debate at my local store we have interpreted that an Assault Sergeant can be equipped with a pair of Lightning Claws making him far more deadly on the charge. Combine the LCs re-roll to wound along with Unleash Rage and you have a devastatingly powerful anti-infantry unit! I also take Sang. Sword on the Libarian as that is such a devastating power against just about anything in the game. Being able to one shot Nob Bikers or even TWC at initiative 5 is not something to scoff at. With the ability to deep strike right where you need them makes this mt top unit pick with BAs.

 

Numbers also factor highly into the BA lust I have been running. The other Blood Angel players at my local store usually run smaller armies filled with very potent but very expensive units. I decided to take a completely different route and tailor my lists to always have a minimum of 40 marines on the table. Sadly this means I have never used any of the "Big Three" HQ units outside of quick friendly games. While Dante and The Sanguinor are total monsters to behold I can't get behind the price tag. For Sanguinor alone you can take two Jump Pack Librarians which are pretty cost effective for what they can do. Don't get me wrong, I do think all of the super units have a place and can be utterly destructive but I can't bring myself to take them while I have the optioin of taking another squad of Assault Marines.

 

Another discounted unit is that has already been talked about in detail is the Stormraven. I'm still working in my tactics with it but I think it can be an devastating weapon. I know that everyone and their dog can destroy AV12 quickly but there a a few things going for this beast that are worth taking notice. The range at which this cabe dangerous is completely off the charts. Power of the Machine Spirit is just wrong on a vehicle that can travel 24 inches a turn and still fire off a weapon. At least the designers knew that AV12 wasn't going to hold up the best and made almost all of the weapon load out options free which I think also gets over looked quite a bit. The only purchase worth taking is Extra Armor which will allow the Storm Raven to always move and fire off a weapon every turn.

[Isryion]

Numbers also factor highly into the BA lust I have been running. The other Blood Angel players at my local store usually run smaller armies filled with very potent but very expensive units. I decided to take a completely different route and tailor my lists to always have a minimum of 40 marines on the table. Sadly this means I have never used any of the "Big Three" HQ units outside of quick friendly games. While Dante and The Sanguinor are total monsters to behold I can't get behind the price tag. For Sanguinor alone you can take two Jump Pack Librarians which are pretty cost effective for what they can do. Don't get me wrong, I do think all of the super units have a place and can be utterly destructive but I can't bring myself to take them while I have the optioin of taking another squad of Assault Marines.

 

I agree. More marines is better. I had good success with my lists today that had over 50 marines (2 Baals, a Rhino and a DP). My only "vets" were my DC, and I was able to fit in a reclusiarch and 2 SP (including corbs). I was forced to eat some Wolf Psychic Powers, so I might have to rethink or tweak a couple of things.

[Dark Mechanicum]

My list right now is thus:

 

Astorath

 

5man Terminator Assault Squad

 

2 Sanguinary Priests w/Jump Packs & Lightning Claw

 

Chaplain w/Jump Pack

 

Assault Marine Squad w/2 Meltaguns and Sergent w/Power Weapon

 

Assault Marine Squad w/2 Meltaguns and Sergent w/Power Weapon

 

Assault Marine Squad w/2 Flamers and Sergent w/Thunder Hammer

 

2 Baal Preds with TL Assault Cannons and Heavy Bolter Sponsons

 

Land Raider Crusader.

 

 

The list is fun to use and very entertaining to watch the enemy blink.

[Malus the Destroyer]

It is by no means designed for tournies, but my list will always have 4 x 10 man Ras. 2 with TH/HF and 2xFlamer, 2 with PF/IP and 2x MG. Backing this up will always be 2 JP SHP, and I will ALWAYS field Seth. Everything else I toss in last minute depending on point value. If I really wanted to compete, I'd toss em all in Rhino's, but not only are we allowed to field that many jump infantry, it just looks rockstar painted and on the table. 40+ war torn, armor sundered, scratched, and scorched, Flesh Tearer Air Force.

I am building an actual 'Ard Boys list, and testing it against players that have ranked in the top 15. I'll get back to ya on the results.

*Edit*

Keep in mind, I play first and foremost as a modeller, and to inflict 75% casulties on my enemy every game, not to win. I play Flesh Tearers as Flesh Tearers for fun.

[daboarder]

I hear ya malus and I'm right there with you. There are few more stirring sights in war than a massed cavalry charge, but I'll be damned if the idea of nutjobs with jet engines on their backs doing the same thing doesnt come close.

[Isryion]

Things I've learned:

 

1) Assault Marines are ALWAYS better than Tacs

 

 

For me, against armies like Space Wolves (can include more power weapons p troops unit) and some Tyranid builds (warrior with bonesword/whip) this is not really true. I've found that my army really works best in combined arms because while BA is an assault oriented army there are armies that do it more cost effectively.

[Artemis360]

Personally I always give my priests power weapons if I have points left over. They're basically exactly the same as a squad sergeant but with WS 5, so if you would ever pay to give your sergeant weapons, surely you'd want to give your priest weapons.

 

Powerfists make no sense to me in an army with so much furious charge available, I go with power weapons all the way. It really surprised me to see a powerfist heavy 'ard boyz list on Bell of Lost Souls.

 

My favourite HQ is a librarian with JP, sanguine sword and unleash rage running with RAS and a priest. He's so versatile, buffs the squads damage output immeasurably and in a tight situation (like if there was an enemy squad and a tank sitting on an objective on turn 5) you can break him off from a squad and suicide him in order to take out a high priority target. People don't often expect you to do this because as I said, its often suicide for the librarian. But after the librarian has taken out that valkyrie/trygon/depleted nob biker squad etc, the enemy suddenly realises that youve wiped one unit, tied up and severely damaged another and suddenly he just doesn't have the units left to win the game with. The librarian dies but by that point its too late for the enemy. Also remember to place the priest carefully so the librarian can stay in his bubble, especially if you need initiative 5 to make the maneuver work.

[Isryion]

Powerfists make no sense to me in an army with so much furious charge available...

 

Really? Do your combats only go one round? Powerfists w/furious charge wreck dreds and other vehicles and instakill T5. Besides that, there's the whole wound allocation argument that is hugely in favor of PF. Don't get me wrong I like PW as well, but even if wound allocation weren't an issue, I'd still say that PF add to the versatility of a unit.

[SamaNagol]

Walkers and Monstrous Creatures chuckle at your puny St5 Power Weapons. You definitely need a few Fists here and there.

[Arturas]

Powerfists make no sense to me in an army with so much furious charge available...

 

Really? Do your combats only go one round? Powerfists w/furious charge wreck dreds and other vehicles and instakill T5. Besides that, there's the whole wound allocation argument that is hugely in favor of PF. Don't get me wrong I like PW as well, but even if wound allocation weren't an issue, I'd still say that PF add to the versatility of a unit.

 

Actually the strength doubling of the power fist occurs before any bonus to strength is added so FC + power fist = S9 i.e. no instakilling T5

[Priest33]

Libby Dreds cop a huge amount of enemy fire and are a very expencive way of being a point sink.. (even if they do make their 5+ cover save for 2 rounds of shooting against multi meltas mwhahahah)

 

Sang guard models are great for Vang or honor guard as Sang Guard dont work that great :(

 

Sang priest are amazing. That is all.

 

Furioso dreds are great. Heavy Flamer and Melta Gun 4tw.

 

Storm ravens are a trap against most torni lists. AV12 is just plain bad.

 

FCing Assault termis with LC's is just amazing.