magna grapple question

[ChapniK]

As the title indicates I have a question concerning the magna grapple. The rules for this weapon indicates that any unit that the vehicle goes over are considered as being tank shocked. As such, if one of squads is tank shocked and I choose to perform a death or glory and I destroy/explode the vehicle. In this case lets imagine a rhino with a full tactical squad inside. Could the dreadnought assault the tactical squad following the rule that a unit can assault a unit that they have destroyed the transport.

 

Tanks in advance.

[Mike Somerville]

Yes.

 

-Mike

[Sanguinarian]

Are non-vehicle units given an opportunity to react or are they just tank-shocked?

[Brother_Dan'l]

So the enemy player shot his own transport? Or is one of your units not firing this game turn in the hopes the Magna Grapple will work and they'll get to do Death or Glory? And is the one game in 257,987,802 that this might occur going to be your game?

 

Consider that you've got to be within 12", with one of your units in the path of the dragged vehicle, and your shooting can't destroy the target. Then let's look at the die rolls. First you need to hit the targeted transport. Then you'll need to penetrate. Have him fail the possible cover save from your unit or other terrain. If he fails the save you have to roll poorly enough to not destroy him. Then roll high enough to drag him, not only, into the intervening unit but also to within 6" of you. During this your unit has to pass their tank shock test, penetrate and destroy the transport. By my count that's 8 die rolls. Just shoot the sumbitch and be done. :D

 

As Mike and Sanguinarian both said, it will work as you described. But if it does, don't ever bother wasting money on a lottery ticket. You done used up all yo' luck. :lol:

[Jakobus]

This is how I can picture this happening using a Chaos Rhino (Theirs) a squad of BA Assault Marine (Yours) and the Furioso (Yours)

 

CHAOS RHINO

 

BA Assault Marrines

 

Furioso

 

So the Furioso Grapples and hits the Rhino and starts dragging it towards itself, the Assault marines are in the path it is being dragged and are therefore subjected to Tankshock rules which entitles your assault squad to attempt a Death or Glory, which could technically enable you to attempt two Meltagun shots at this tank.

[Mattsama]

I would say no, the Dread can not assault because no the Dread is not the unit that destroyed the transport.

[wookielips]

why did you line your units up like that, knowing you had a magna grapple? *dumbfounded*

[ChapniK]

So the enemy player shot his own transport? Or is one of your units not firing this game turn in the hopes the Magna Grapple will work and they'll get to do Death or Glory? And is the one game in 257,987,802 that this might occur going to be your game?

 

Consider that you've got to be within 12", with one of your units in the path of the dragged vehicle, and your shooting can't destroy the target. Then let's look at the die rolls. First you need to hit the targeted transport. Then you'll need to penetrate. Have him fail the possible cover save from your unit or other terrain. If he fails the save you have to roll poorly enough to not destroy him. Then roll high enough to drag him, not only, into the intervening unit but also to within 6" of you. During this your unit has to pass their tank shock test, penetrate and destroy the transport. By my count that's 8 die rolls. Just shoot the sumbitch and be done. :lol:

 

As Mike and Sanguinarian both said, it will work as you described. But if it does, don't ever bother wasting money on a lottery ticket. You done used up all yo' luck. :lol:

 

 

First off no as you cannot shot your own units. Secondly, what are you taking about, the squad that would death or glory could shoot before/after or even run after attempting to death or glory. The unit having done a death or glory destroying the vehicle or not is then free to shoot another squad, the same vehicle or run. As the Magna grapple creates a chain reaction that must be completed before continuing the shooting.

 

I will agree that the chances of pulling this off are rare, considering that it requires that have a unit in the path of the grappled vehicle, but it is still possible that such a circumstance could happen. Also you made a mistake, the magna grapple only need to hit the vehicle for its ability to trigger. That means that anytime that the vehicle is not destroyed I can attempt to pull it and in the scenario that i have listed I only need a 3+ to pull the rhino.

 

Another question that arises while using the magma grapple is weather or not the distance traveled by the drag vehicle is accounted for for close combat or shooting for skimmers. Let me illustrates some cases.

 

- A vehicle that has not moved is pulled by the grapple is it counted as moving the number inches? I would imagine yes. Is this still true for a vehicle that has suffered an immobilize result. I would still imagine yes.

 

- If a vehicle has moved moved in its previous phase is the distance that it is dragged added to its total distance traveled for close combat purposes?

 

- Lastly this would the rarest circumstance. Lets say that a skimmer has moved during the opponents phases and is now dragged a distance that would now put it into the flat out section. If it suffers and immobilize result it would count as destroyed

 

These situation of course would only occur if the distance of the dragging is added wish seems the most logical and not some other fashion like taking the highest movement value

[Jakobus]

I honestly don't know, may this is an insane way to definately get a Scoring unit in a rhino off a objective at the end of turn 5?

 

I supose that you could set it up like that to attempt to pop to tank with the assault squad and the Furioso and you have been have a really bad day when it comes to your rolls (ie rolling snakeyes on a Melta vs Rhino). So you set up this formation in order to open the tank and get as many shots as possible on the squad inside.

[Brother_Dan'l]

So the enemy player shot his own transport? Or is one of your units not firing this game turn in the hopes the Magna Grapple will work and they'll get to do Death or Glory? And is the one game in 257,987,802 that this might occur going to be your game?

 

Consider that you've got to be within 12", with one of your units in the path of the dragged vehicle, and your shooting can't destroy the target. Then let's look at the die rolls. First you need to hit the targeted transport. Then you'll need to penetrate. Have him fail the possible cover save from your unit or other terrain. If he fails the save you have to roll poorly enough to not destroy him. Then roll high enough to drag him, not only, into the intervening unit but also to within 6" of you. During this your unit has to pass their tank shock test, penetrate and destroy the transport. By my count that's 8 die rolls. Just shoot the sumbitch and be done. :)

 

As Mike and Sanguinarian both said, it will work as you described. But if it does, don't ever bother wasting money on a lottery ticket. You done used up all yo' luck. :P

 

 

First off no as you cannot shot your own units. Secondly, what are you taking about, the squad that would death or glory could shoot before/after or even run after attempting to death or glory. The unit having done a death or glory destroying the vehicle or not is then free to shoot another squad, the same vehicle or run. As the Magna grapple creates a chain reaction that must be completed before continuing the shooting.

 

I will agree that the chances of pulling this off are rare, considering that it requires that have a unit in the path of the grappled vehicle, but it is still possible that such a circumstance could happen. Also you made a mistake, the magna grapple only need to hit the vehicle for its ability to trigger. That means that anytime that the vehicle is not destroyed I can attempt to pull it and in the scenario that i have listed I only need a 3+ to pull the rhino.

 

Another question that arises while using the magma grapple is weather or not the distance traveled by the drag vehicle is accounted for for close combat or shooting for skimmers. Let me illustrates some cases.

 

- A vehicle that has not moved is pulled by the grapple is it counted as moving the number inches? I would imagine yes. Is this still true for a vehicle that has suffered an immobilize result. I would still imagine yes.

 

- If a vehicle has moved moved in its previous phase is the distance that it is dragged added to its total distance traveled for close combat purposes?

 

- Lastly this would the rarest circumstance. Lets say that a skimmer has moved during the opponents phases and is now dragged a distance that would now put it into the flat out section. If it suffers and immobilize result it would count as destroyed

 

These situation of course would only occur if the distance of the dragging is added wish seems the most logical and not some other fashion like taking the highest movement value

I'm sorry but there really are some things wrong here and I think you may need to re-read the sections on DoG and the Magna Grapple. And yes, I was being semi-sarcastic about the enemy shooting his own vehicle.

 

Firstly, the Magna Grapple must still equal/exceed the AV of the target to drag it. It is actually an additional die roll after the penetration/attack roll caused by the initial hit. So even if the MG didn't glance/penetrate the target and cause damage, as long as it hit, you still make a second test of S8+d6 vs AV to attempt to drag the vehicle toward the Dreadnought.

 

Secondly, the distance dragged has nothing to do with the die roll required to hit that vehicle in CC. That number is based purely on movement in the target vehicle's preceding movement phase. The drag distance is not movement in the movement phase for any purpose and so is not added to the distance the target vehicle may or may not have moved.

 

Also I do not believe you get to magically gain the ability to fire twice at different targets in the same phase just because the Magna Grapple dragged a tank thru your unit. I doubt they even considered the possibility of this situation when writing the main rules. Though I'll admit I don't actual have any rule I can specifically sight in this instance. Truthfully I question wether or not you should be allowed to fire at the target vehicle in death or glory if you've previously fired that weapon at it as part of your normal shooting of the turn.

 

And wether or not the Dreadnought fired the shot that actually destroyed the vehicle, as long as he fired upon it that turn, he can charge the disembarking passengers. There is nothing anywhere in the rules that should lead you to think otherwise.

[ChapniK]

I'm sorry but there really are some things wrong here and I think you may need to re-read the sections on DoG and the Magna Grapple. And yes, I was being semi-sarcastic about the enemy shooting his own vehicle.

 

Firstly, the Magna Grapple must still equal/exceed the AV of the target to drag it. It is actually an additional die roll after the penetration/attack roll caused by the initial hit. So even if the MG didn't glance/penetrate the target and cause damage, as long as it hit, you still make a second test of S8+d6 vs AV to attempt to drag the vehicle toward the Dreadnought.I know how the magna grapple works we have been saying the same thing

 

Secondly, the distance dragged has nothing to do with the die roll required to hit that vehicle in CC. That number is based purely on movement in the target vehicle's preceding movement phase. The drag distance is not movement in the movement phase for any purpose and so is not added to the distance the target vehicle may or may not have moved.You are right here, having re-viewed the rulebook as the traveled distance in its previous turn

 

Also I do not believe you get to magically gain the ability to fire twice at different targets in the same phase just because the Magna Grapple dragged a tank thru your unit. I doubt they even considered the possibility of this situation when writing the main rules. Though I'll admit I don't actual have any rule I can specifically sight in this instance. Truthfully I question wether or not you should be allowed to fire at the target vehicle in death or glory if you've previously fired that weapon at it as part of your normal shooting of the turn.Here I have to disagree, the magna grapple breaks the turn sequence. It initiates a tank shock. Which will either make the unit move either due to passing or failing its morale, if it passes its test it can death of glory. After doing the result you resume the shooting phase. Which goes pick unit, declare what unit its shooting at or if its running, roll dice, apply special rules,see result, pick next unit. Following this there is nothing in the rules preventing that unit from following the normal rules of the shooting phase

 

And wether or not the Dreadnought fired the shot that actually destroyed the vehicle, as long as he fired upon it that turn, he can charge the disembarking passengers. There is nothing anywhere in the rules that should lead you to think otherwise. Ok, got it

[Brother_Dan'l]

Firstly, the Magna Grapple must still equal/exceed the AV of the target to drag it. It is actually an additional die roll after the penetration/attack roll caused by the initial hit. So even if the MG didn't glance/penetrate the target and cause damage, as long as it hit, you still make a second test of S8+d6 vs AV to attempt to drag the vehicle toward the Dreadnought.I know how the magna grapple works we have been saying the same thing

Sorry, I guess I got thrown when you said you only need a 3+ to pull the vehicle. I now see that you probably meant on the roll vs armor (of a Rhino) as opposed to the BS4's 3+ to hit.

 

I'd imagine that it'll be a cold day in hades before we see any sort of official answer to you can/you can't shoot if you've already fired and the grapple drags an enemy tank thru your squad. And expecting them to answer it including the second target variant is like holding your breath till the sun goes out. :(

[ChapniK]

Firstly, the Magna Grapple must still equal/exceed the AV of the target to drag it. It is actually an additional die roll after the penetration/attack roll caused by the initial hit. So even if the MG didn't glance/penetrate the target and cause damage, as long as it hit, you still make a second test of S8+d6 vs AV to attempt to drag the vehicle toward the Dreadnought.I know how the magna grapple works we have been saying the same thing

Sorry, I guess I got thrown when you said you only need a 3+ to pull the vehicle. I now see that you probably meant on the roll vs armor (of a Rhino) as opposed to the BS4's 3+ to hit.

 

I'd imagine that it'll be a cold day in hades before we see any sort of official answer to you can/you can't shoot if you've already fired and the grapple drags an enemy tank thru your squad. And expecting them to answer it including the second target variant is like holding your breath till the sun goes out. :rolleyes:

 

 

Ya thats pretty much what I'm expecting. Might call GW to see what their call on it is, but their answer usually differer from one operator to the other

[Morticon]

Trying to pick up the piece of the misinterpretations here.

 

I see no issue with what the OP has suggested.

None at all.

 

If you grapple an enemy vehicle through a squad, and it causes Tank Shock, then by Tank Shock rules we are allowed a Death or Glory.

 

No problem.

 

Additionally, Death or Glory does not count as your units shooting. Nowhere in the rules does it say that (for obvious reasons). Death or Glory is an additional rule which creates an additional set of circumstances/abilities.

There is absolutely nothing that i've seen as yet, to prevent you from firing in death or glory and firing your unit after.

[Mattsama]

And wether or not the Dreadnought fired the shot that actually destroyed the vehicle, as long as he fired upon it that turn, he can charge the disembarking passengers. There is nothing anywhere in the rules that should lead you to think otherwise.

 

You're right! I'm not sure what I was thinking at the time but, I change my answer to a yes. In the circumstances lined up, your Dread may indeed assault if a unit DoGs a transport you dragged a transport through!

[stinkenheim]

And wether or not the Dreadnought fired the shot that actually destroyed the vehicle, as long as he fired upon it that turn, he can charge the disembarking passengers. There is nothing anywhere in the rules that should lead you to think otherwise.

 

 

theres actually a (very) long tread in the official rules forum regarding this very issue and its debateable as to whether it is any or just the squad that destroyed it.

I won't go into details, and i'm not arguing one or te other ehre, but if your interested i reccomened you check it out. Im just trying to make you aware that its not quite as clear cut as you may think.

 

OT, i thought of this when i was flicking through the codex when it had come out. Inded i recommended it to a friend as a viable tatic should he take a magna-grapple as there is nothing saying that the unit cannot DoG in the same turn it had shot (for the obvious reasons that DoG usually happens in the opponents turn). Seemed a bit cheesy, but as i say the rules don't say that you can or can't, it just says a unti that passes its moral check can make a DoG attempt.

thats my take on it anway. I wouldn't object to my oppoent doing it against me which i normally think is a good example as to whether a rule is too cheesy :devil: