Deathstar units

[Brother_Dan'l]

My experience here is based on 1750 - 2000 point games, but it always seems to me that these so called "Deathstar" units in marine armies are a bit of a joke.

 

People seem to think that if you take a squad of CC terminators with an IC in a Land Raider Crusader or Redeemer they are killer game changing units. But I've not seen it. These units generally eat up up at least a third of the army's total PV and rarely do squat. Pretty? Yes. Effectiveness though just doesn't seem to be there. And unlike Nob Bikerz they have only one wound, their mobility is severely limited and a single golden BB leaves them walking. At most they'll gobble up a Tactical Squad and then get creamed. I suppose it's different if you've got a pair of them, but at that point you're probably playing APOCALYPSE.

 

What's the attraction? Am I seeing a really limited conceptual gene pool and that's what's coloring my impressions?

[mowglie]

Unless your death star has a specific and relevant purpose that can't be performed as efficiently and more safely by a less expensive unit, leave it at home.

 

You're correct. Often (mostly?) people take deathstars without purpose.

 

Particularly offensive assault units. They're very expensive out of the vanilla codex, and are often "win-more".

[Fatuous]

I see them more as distraction pieces really, so keep them cheap (and I'm sure most people would disagree with how I play them, it is pretty unconventional).

 

CC terminators for example. I consider these guys pretty cheap for what they can bring to the table. And don't bother putting them in a raider, I'd prefer twice as many and have them walk (not being a fan of DSing them either).

 

Can they catch up with fast things? No. Do they actaully need to? While being disputable, I again think not. They can have other uses above and beyond going up and punching people in the face.

 

They can give cover saves to other squads behind, that plasma fire is going to go some where, and I for one would much prefer it being focused on my 3+ inv save guys, rather than a tactical squad, and if you are in rapid fire range of those termies, I don;t need to chase you down. Like wise if they do fire on the marines, they are in charge range of those termies, and the tac squad will get a cover save.

They can (and will) draw a fair amount of fire, most likely of the plasma kind (as mentioned above).

March em up towards an objective, and there is no running away from them, I'll either contest it with the termies or start htting people very hard.

 

So in summary (and I realise I'm prob on my own with this), I think that there certainly is still a place for deathstart units, but like anything you can't go too over the top. BUt their main usuage will often end up being a distracting target to remove fire from other key units. So don't go too crazy with them

[Jackelope King]

Unless your death star has a specific and relevant purpose that can't be performed as efficiently and more safely by a less expensive unit, leave it at home.

Precisely.

 

But this applies to every single unit in your list. When you add a unit to your army, your line of thinking should go "How will this unit serve to bolster units X, Y, and Z? How will they bolster this new unit?" In short, where does this unit go in your battle strategy?

 

People who take Assault Terminators "just because they're awesome" usually wind up being disappointed in the long-run. I take a "Death Star" / "Rock" unit in my Bikers army (a Biker Command Squad), and its goal is to provide a screen for the rest of my low model-count army (it's an immediate threat on almost any turn, thanks to being mounted on Bikes). It's nearly immune to non-close-combat specialists (T5, 3+ invuln, and Feel No Pain). It can also tear through most other Rock units pretty well, and is more mobile than almost all of them. But it doesn't win the game. My other Bikers and my Firebase usually do that. The Command Squad just slams that last nail into the coffin like a sledge hammer.

[Velkairiwyth]

Good thread... Im interested in seeing some of the arguments for/against Death Star units (and what would classify as one :evil:)

 

Termies in a LR are a pretty common sight, and are pretty effective at what they do - but they do have weaknesses, especially if De-meched. biker command squads kitted to the nines are very expensive, but with some mini-trials and theorycrafting (mathhammer if you will) they dont have a lot of weaknesses (Especially if led by Khan) If you can hop from melee to melee then unless you leave a lot of power fists swinging or are fighting against the likes of Tyranid Warriors/Howling Banshes who attack first and ignore armour - you tend to lay down a lot of damage, and can take it quite well.

 

I dont often use death star units. At most ill throw a librarian in a razorback of troopers to reach out with null zone/psychic hood, or maybe throw in a special character for some rules trickery. When I do use death star units I do indeed find they are hit or miss... If you dont strategise them (like outflanking charging khan command bikers ^.^) then it can be shot down/avoided with some lucky dice and proves a waste of points.

 

I do like the demoralising factor of fielding maxxed out HS and elite slots, and fielding 4 transports of troops in low point games simply because i have a cheap-as-chips HQ... (3 heavy tanks, 2 dreads and some termies or sternguard (in transport) and then loads of transports - and speeders = a LOT of armour for the enemy to shoot at (especially if its about 1500 point battle.)

 

/ramble.

[Fetterkey]

An Assault Terminator unit in a Land Raider isn't really a deathstar unit. The closest thing Marines have to a deathstar unit is the biker command death squad with four storm shields, three lightning claws, a thunder hammer, and four special weapons.

[Titan87]

As a big fan of the deathstar unit I find that they must have a dedicated role to be effective, for example take the codex assault terminators + LR (I actually agree with Fetterkey that this is not a true deathstar unit, for that look at BT assault terminators with furious charge, nob bikers, Thunderwolf Cav, etc.).

 

The above unit will do things that no other unit in can do as well.

 

1. The ability to do what others can't: Very few units survive an encounter with these guys. They kill what they are aimed at period. Eldar Avatar: Dead, Carnifex: Dead Nid Warriors: Dead, Plague Marines: Dead, etc. Standard marines kill soft troops squishy units these units are needed to deal with other units that wreck face.

 

2. Survivability: While sternguard are great one Vindicator shot and they all die, period. Deathstar units are great because usually they can kill and they can survive to kill more. Hit a unit of terminators with AP 3 or higher they are fine, hit a PA marine with AP3= dead marine. Things like invulnerable saves, feel no pain, multiple wounds, improved toughness are all great reasons why deathstars are great as....

 

3. Distractions: These units kill and survive, that is established. These units can alter your opponents game plan, they have to be dealt with, and to deal with your opponent has to dedicate significant resources to deal with them. Deathstars free the rest of your army up to do their jobs relatively unchallenged. This means your opponent is reacting the way you want them to from the start which is a victory in and of itself.

 

Effectiveness is not always in the number of points a unit kills.

[Allerka]

Pretty much what Titan said. The only thing resembling a true death star unit in C:SM is a squad of TH/SS Terminators with Vulkan AND Lysander backing them up or a fully tooled out Biker Command Squad (and even then I'd consider them more super star destroyer units than death stars, if we continue the Star Wars analogies). Coincidentally, I've used both for the purposes killing things, being distractions, and surviving insane amounts of firepower/attacks. And they work pretty well at it. Even those two units you have to be careful with, there's still a lot of things in other armies that would wipe the floor with them. I think part of it is with a community like this, we only see things from the Marines perspective. I have friends that play other armies and frequently use death star type units, which get them plenty of tournament wins, so I think it's absolutely a viable tactic (and I've had my own share of tournament wins with the aforementioned units I've used).

 

Then there's the Thunderwolves. Dear God, are those a sick unit. In both rounds of the 'Ard Boyz so far, plus several practice games, I've taken a unit of four of them, supported by two Wolf Lords and a Battle Leader riding Thunderwolf mounts, and they almost single-handedly destroy my opponent every game. There's absolutely nothing they haven't utterly annihilated in assault, which fulfills purpose number one. Very often my opponent will dedicate most of their army's firepower to taking them down, which has little to no effect, thus fulfilling purpose numbers two and especially three as my Grey Hunters riding in Land Raiders advance and continue to blaze away as well, or mop up survivors or straggler elements. Yeah, the four units (TWC and three ICs) runs almost 1100 points, but I'd argue they're absolutely worth it for not only their killing power, but their survivability and their seemingly magical ability to make sure my Land Raider squads get completely ignored.

 

But, of course, as has been stated, you need to know how to use them, you need to know exactly what they're good at and not good at, and you need to avoid epic fail on the dice rolling (which these guys can help negate). In the hands of the right player, one of these units is more than capable of giving you a bad day.

[Ookami_81]

Either Death Star or Super Star Destroyer, I love them in 2000 pts+ games !

 

Problem is: a Death Star unit is expensive, yes, so I think it's more like a nuisance in sub-2000 pts range. I don't trust in "cheap Death Stars", because to me it's just impossible to have: either it's a DS unit and it costs an arm and a leg, or it's just another relatively dangerous unit. (it's not bad, just not a DS).

 

My fav' is the biker command squad of death, lead by Khan, like described above (actually I keep it just a little cheaper because I have a champion in it, just because the mini is sooo cool ;) ).

 

I don't like TDAs: I admit they are usefull, but they are limited to CC if you want them resilient, and except in rare cases requires a land raider crusader to be effective. Three reasons not liking them:

1) much too common, you've got them, you've got "everybody and his dog" marine army. Plus any good player will have something to counter them in his army, so they'll not be that effective.

2) fluffwise, my chapter is young, poor, and so doesn't have many TDA suits and LR to send to death on every single battle. This kind of veterans are more councilors and HQ staff than field of battle killers. Just like dreads. When they go out, it's to defend homefront, or a very decisive battle.

3) Honestly, I find both land raiders and termies really ugly. Cumbersome. Sluggish. Walking or rolling tin cans. A shame comparing to regular PA or even better BA artificer armour. As I pay attention to the dynamic beauty of my army, I waaayyy prefer bikes.

 

Finally, I fully agree to the "killing aptitude + survivability + distraction" characteristics, but I'll add "mobility".

 

A Death Star is a shadow of fear on the battlefield. The faster the unit, the larger the shadow.

This Shadow Of Fear makes fear your friend (hell that's a real space marine thing ! "We do not know fear because we are fear incarnate !") and thus win you half the battle. If your enemy fear something, he'll be unable to take the right decision at the right time, and thus he'll eventuelly lose.

 

DS units are lose-lose choice makers: try to put something like death star bike command squad with Khan on the table, a Vindi or two, a Whirly or Thunderfire cannon, rhinos full of tacticals, a razor with sternguards, full antitank bikersquads, then look at the face of your opponent and enjoy the view ! :P

[Giga]

Most people make their lists without any real clue as to what they're doing. This goes on to affect their gameplay, making them use units mindlessly and in "ways these units were supposed to be used in". The hammernators in a crusader with an IC is an excellent example. People will spend ~700 points on this unit, and then simply drive it forward into melta range, kill one enemy unit, and then get shot to pieces. There are quite a few players at my LGS that do this regularly, lose battles, and never figure out they're doing something wrong.

 

The problem with this is that "deathstar" means something that kills planets or, in this case, should kill an entire enemy army faster then you can read this sentence. This CAN happen if you're playing against a beginner or a noob, but when it does it's really only because the opponent is a scrub and/or inexperienced. In actual competitive 40k (tournament style) this is virtually unheard of.

 

The thing with deathstar units - the vanilla marine ones, anyway - is that, like the rest of our codex, they don't so much excel at their own strengths as they excel at taking advantage of an opponent's weaknesses. In other words, they need to be flexible, so you can use them to fill in various niches in various situations and matchups.

 

Here are a couple of examples of how I use my th/ss termies in a LR godhammer;

 

As a counter-assault unit - against armies that want to kick my ass in close combat (tyranids, orks, wolves, khorne CSM, new BA, etc.) I will usually be on the defense for the first couple of turns. I will deploy the LR with termies in the front-center of my force, and use its lascannons to try and pwn a transport or two, or to add to the general torrent of high-strength shots that normally results in a dead MC per turn, or at least some insta-killed heavy infantry.

 

Now, by turn 3, most close-combat armies should be closing in on me. With the general 20" charge range of the terminators in the LR, I'm able to move in and relieve whatever part of my line requires some strong close-combat assistance. An example of this would be a full-wounds tyranid MC getting close to the sides of my army, or a daemon prince preparing to charge next turn, or a bunch of nob bikerz or tyranid warriors, etc.

 

The benefit here is dual; I have a powerful counter-assault unit that prevents the enemy from getting his heavy hitters into assault with my weaker units, combined with a TL-lascannon platform that is very unlikely to be destroyed by long-range shooting. In addition, the LR can be used as a mobile terrain, forcing my opponent to bunch up his forces or even completely preventing him from advancing down certain lines. This same LR is also an excellent place for my librarian to ride in - as it's deployed centrally and forward, it benefits gives the libby's psychic hood AND nullzone.

 

Often, the sheer psychological threat of this counter-assault unit will either force the enemy to waste high-strength shots on the LR, or to try and avoid it, allowing me to shoot them for longer. It will also allow me to ignore an entire element of an opponent's army, allowing it to close in on me, because I know my th/ss termies are going to be able to deal with it once it gets into charge range (which it'll inevitably have to do).

 

Spearheading the assault - against armies that I want to kill in close combat (marine variants, guard, Tau, Eldar, necrons, etc.), the LR can be used to spearhead the overall charge into enemy lines. Drive it forward, keep it in cover, pop smoke, etc. and the enemy is likely to waste lots of shots on it in hopes to stop it. Even if they do destroy it, you can use the termies to draw tons of firepower while the rest of your army advances. If it reaches enemy lines, make sure you attack stuff that your tacticals, sternguard, etc. can't kill reliably ie. vehicles and monstrous creatures.

 

An example would be, if you're charging a guard gunline, you accept that both your LR and your terminators are going to die (all that melta and torrent of fire pwns them). However, you also know that those veterans are going to die real fast to your tactical squads shooting once they're out of their transports. Hence, you use the termies to pwn as many chimeras as possible (multiple assault for the win), and then soak up as much firepower as they can. At which point you just wipe out them veterans through sheer flamer+bolter ownage. In the end, you trade one unit for a few of his units. It's not glorious, but it works. Oh and, if you're lucky and the guard dude is running leman russ or artillery squadrons, then that's what you want to assault with them terminators.

 

Deathstar-unit Killers - th/ss in a LR can kill deathstar enemy units like there's no tomorrow. Keeping them safe so you can get to charge those nob bikerz, tyranid warriors, awesome MCs, big deathcompany units, awesome-ICs, etc. will actually allow them to pay for their points WHILE also looking suitably awesome.

 

 

 

 

The th/ss-in-a-LR deathstar unit is just one that I can relate to the most. What one needs to keep in mind - especially when utilizing deathstar units - is that it doesn't matter how you use a unit, as long as that method leads to victory. People can argue all day long that I'm wasting my th/ss terminators if all I kill with them is a couple of chimeras, but if that's what ultimately results in me winning, then I'll do it with a smile on my face

 

Needless to say, all this concerns all-comers lists (pretty much the only type of lists I play). If you're tailoring a list to beat a particular opponent, then ofc you don't have to do devise creative ways to use your deathstar units. But then, why would anyone play tailored lists, anyway?

[Ookami_81]

Very interesting post Giga. It seems you choose your "DS-like" unit radically differently than myself, but in the end the aim is the same: create fear. Ingesting an atrocious amount of firepower, diverting it from other important units. Protecting, always protecting, in fact it's perhaps the best use of a DS: protecting the rest of your army, either by diverting fire and attention, or counter-charging.

 

The other theme -rather offensive- when you speak about spearheading and even more in DS-killing, is very very important: morale.

You cleverly use your potent unit to destroy the most potent unit of the enemy. Maybe your opponent will think at this instant that the party is over for him. Thus giving you at least half of the victory. If he's defeated in his mind, the rest will follow.

 

Thanks for this post where you explain what to do with a LR and Assault termies. Maybe my view on it is biaised by the fact that I see too much young people throwing it in my face thinking that my poor bikers will have a tough time with it because they are just so tiny... :P That, and the fact that I'm a air warrior by heart (with some water aspects, like not running a full biker army and prefering having some solid firepower in my back and tanks), where you seem to be really into water warrior style.

[Giga]

Yep, water/earth-warrior style suits me perfectly. I'm sort of a timid player. I don't naturally like to take risks and hence prefer reliability and flexibility to specialization and all-or-nothing approach.

 

I've faced the LR-with-deathstar-unit-in-yo-face in many different versions; from the standard LR filled with vulkan and th/ss termies, to a LR with Khârn and zerkers, to a LR with a bunch of death company/wolf guard, etc. They're invariably easy to neutralize simply because they're coming head-on at you, and all it takes is some clever positioning and trap-setting to take them out in a single turn of awesome shooting. The funny thing is, once they lose this unit, many players seem to give up.

 

This is how I deal with these;

 

Step#1: Position your fast melta (mm attack bikes, mm/hf speeders) so that, when the LR comes in, they can move into melta range. Position your mechanized tactical squads (or a 4 plasma command squad in a razorback, if you're like me and you love to run one of those) on both sides of your LR. Shoot your little heart out as the enemy force closes in. This part usually happens during deployment, turn 1, and turn 2.

 

(If you're playing spearhead or pitched battle deployment, reserving your speeders and bikes is a great thing to do as then they arrive from reserve, usually into melta range of the LR you want to kill.)

 

Step#2: Once the enemy LR is within 16-18" of your LR (turn 2 or 3) move LR forward and unload your terminators in front of the enemy LR. Move your tacticals forward and unload them into rapid fire range of the enemy LR. Move your fast melta into melta range of the enemy LR.

 

Step#3 (still the same turn as step#2): Blow up the enemy LR with fast melta. Rapid fire the contents with your tacticals (and whatever other weight of fire shooting you got). Plasma command squads + nullzone work real well at this stage and demoralize the heck out of opponents. Charge whatever is left with your own th/ss termies and wipe them out. This way you destroy both the enemy LR and it's contents in a single turn of awesome, AND you also give your opponents a whole lot of targets to deal with in their following turn (which should hopefully keep a good chunk of your force safe as your opponent is busy killing your fast melta and your termies).

 

THE BACKUP PLAN: if you're unlucky and you don't manage to kill the LR with all that shooting (and you should have at least 3-4 multimeltas from fast melta AND perhaps a multimelta on your own LR) you should have, at the very least, managed to immobilize it. Even if you didn't, your termies are still in charge range of the LR, so you charge it and make sure you position your termies to cover the frontal ramp AND the doors on the sides, thus making it impossible for the enemy deathstar unit to disembark from the LR.

 

All this should result in the enemy LR getting AT LEAST immobilized, which means the enemy deathstar unit can't disembark (ur termies are covering all the exits!) and the LR can't move away. If you're a lucky bastard and you manage to glance the enemy LR to death with your thunderhammers, you may even get the entire deathstar unit inside to EMERGENCY DISEMBARK, resulting in the entire unit being pinned down for the next turn. Awesome!

 

If, however, you fail to immobilize/wreck/destroy the LR, you're prolly gonna get hit real hard (maybe even owned totally) in the next turn... But that's the price of having abysmally bad dice rolls.

[Ookami_81]

Agreed. I don't think the worts case of your explanation happens often enough. :o

Against this particular DS unit, I usually do the same in step one (yep, reserve is excellent, even more with Khan and outflanking, you can be a little more agressive). In step two and three I do the same, but you change your LR with either my own DS unit, or with a regular full bike squad and the captain in lower pts games, 2-3 MM ABs, and a couple LS Typhoons. The ABs pop up the LR (if not then I have a second chance with meltas and multimeltas in the bike squad), then the typhoons unload kraks and HB rounds, then the bike squad fire (if not already done), using meltas as "non gets hot" single shots plasma + the bike captain hellfire rounds, then assault and voilà. In second backup plan I have a PFist (or a TH) in the bike squad (OK, it's not as good as you in that third case) + some people with melta bombs, like assault marines for example. But having two fast melta delivery units guarantee 85% of the time a kill on the LR, and then the passengers have to deal with LCs, THs, Relic Blade, melta shots, krak missiles, and so on.

But (there is one but), when you're facing a good player using its DS unit in coordination with other units, it can shortly become a nightmare. Facing you, a water/earth player, I think I would try to harass you without engaging hard (like fire style), attempting to weaken and disperse your units, before flanking or TBoosting my strong units on your weakest spot. For that I have mobile bikes shooting (and avoiding charge), and my backyard firebase... That should be interesting... ;)

[Giga]

But (there is one but), when you're facing a good player using its DS unit in coordination with other units, it can shortly become a nightmare.

No, no, no! That's when 40k becomes TRULY fun to play. You NEVER know how those battles are gonna end. :D

 

Gotha say, it seems it'd be helluva fun playing against your army. We don't have many players who run bikes around here (I'm pretty much the only guy who likes to run them regularly), and the ones who do really have no clue on how to use them. We also don't have any real air armies, and you might say mine is the only water army in the entire club. Playing against super-aggressive close-combat armies and gunlines is fun, but sadly gets boring after a while since you can pretty much see the way the battle is going to go from the start. :/

[Allerka]

But (there is one but), when you're facing a good player using its DS unit in coordination with other units, it can shortly become a nightmare.

No, no, no! That's when 40k becomes TRULY fun to play. You NEVER know how those battles are gonna end. :RTBBB:

 

Gotha say, it seems it'd be helluva fun playing against your army. We don't have many players who run bikes around here (I'm pretty much the only guy who likes to run them regularly), and the ones who do really have no clue on how to use them. We also don't have any real air armies, and you might say mine is the only water army in the entire club. Playing against super-aggressive close-combat armies and gunlines is fun, but sadly gets boring after a while since you can pretty much see the way the battle is going to go from the start. :/

Yeah, biker armies are definitely tricky to play. I think I did pretty well with mine, there was a bit of shock and awe when I'd drop 40-ish bikes on the table at 2000 points (followed by the obligatory "Jeez they're fast!" comments). :RTBBB:

 

Where are you at, Giga? I feel inclined to try and track you down for a game or two, after reading a number of posts by you, I think it'd be some good fun. :)

[Giga]

Hah, I live in Belgrade, Serbia. 40k scene isn't too big over here, but at least it's pretty active and has a variety of players.

 

I do hope that, someday, I'd be able to visit America or England and attend one of those large tournaments like 'Ard Boyz, Adepticon, etc. and hopefully meet some of B&C or BoLS guys there. :angry:

[Koremu]

I really don't understand this element-style army. It smells of Xenotry to me :angry:

 

I build armies for the ability to adapt to be any of the required tactics.

[Giga]

I really don't understand this element-style army. It smells of Xenotry to me :D

 

I build armies for the ability to adapt to be any of the required tactics.

In other words, you build water armies. :)

[Ookami_81]

Koremu, I think it's the aim of everybody. :)

 

I'm into air-water style, but looking at my lists every element is into those which are 1500 + pts.

 

The element approach is an attempt to define/clarify type of lists and playstyle in a SM army. Like KoS or horde or walker spam with the greenskins.

 

From your answer I'm grasping "adapting" as a key word, that should give you a good watery style of thinking, isn't it ?

 

From my understanding of things:

Air: very mobile army (bikers army for example) counting on mobility to cencentrate firepower and flee enemy's fire

Fire: tough assaulty armies (like some BA lists)

Earth: ultra tough armies forgoing mobility (gun lines for example) and packing lots of firepower

Water: The Middle Way, adapting to the enemy instead of forcing a style of its own using a bit of everything.

 

IMHO these are just concepts, not non-imperial cults of sorts. :D

[Allerka]

Hah, I live in Belgrade, Serbia. 40k scene isn't too big over here, but at least it's pretty active and has a variety of players.

 

I do hope that, someday, I'd be able to visit America or England and attend one of those large tournaments like 'Ard Boyz, Adepticon, etc. and hopefully meet some of B&C or BoLS guys there. :D

Oh...never mind then. :woot: Would be a bit hard to drive to Serbia from the US, heh.

 

Looking at the element styles, I think I'm primarily fire/air, most of my armies are pretty fast, and my Space Wolves list in particular is pretty assaulty, heh.