Icons why take them?

[Warp space]

Ok this has more than likly been run into the ground, BUT i am asking it any ways.

Why would you take Chaos marines with a mark(one of the four gods) Icon???? take nurgle with the Icon you get +1toughness or for 3pts more you get a Plague Marine with toughness4/5, fearless, feel no pain, and blight grenades. I find simular issue with Tzeentch take an Icon get 5+inv sv, OR pay the extra 4pts get a 4+inv sv and AP3 bolters and your fearless.

I used to play Chaos heavy with the old dex and loved the marks system. If nothing else it made you fearless and you didn't loss the bonus if one guy dies. In the past few years I have been playing Orkz heavily I grow bord of them and have be dabbling with the idea of playing Chaos again. I just don't get why they gave us some of these option??

Does any one use the Mark based Icons, why, do they really benifit you???

[Ace of Gods]

Your math is way off on that. Marines cost X amount of points to buy. none of them cost 3 or 5 more like you have stated in the post(they cost more than that). The icons are good because they are an item you can pay once, and its relatively cheap for most of em and it helps out the whole squad. Doing that gives you a slight advantage depending on the mark, also gives you a model that is equipped different that you can help use in your wound allocation. Plus the icons help you to be able to Deep strike in other units with no scatter.

Granted, the Icon only gives you half the ability you would have gotten, instead of you buying a full cult version. But it does save you points. I run 3- 4 squads of marines in each of my lists inside rhinos. The fewer point cost and the ability helps out alot when you add all the individual amounts of points up for that many guys in an army.

[maverike_prime]

I use marks, but not on my basic marines. Depnding on my list I'll have a unit a Termis with Icon of Tzentch (4+ inv save termies are really mean)

I have a unit a bikes with mark of nurgle for Tank hunting. Toughness 6 marines with a pair of melta guns and Melta bombs).

I've been thinking about running a unit of Raptors with Mark of Slaneesh or maybe Mark of Khorne. Haven't decided yet.

[Warp space]

I am going off a 10 man squad. 10 CSM's are X points plus the Icon and if you by nurgles Icon the CSM's are only 3pts cheaper than the Plague Marine. Now i will give you Tzeentch might comeout differently due to the sorcerer you need to purchase.

I can see Icons being used for slot were you do not have a cult choices. Still I loved the Mark system far better.

As for then icon bearer being used for wound location, that would be one of the last places to put a wound. When you Icon dies his bonus dies.

Have dabbled with the 4+ inv sv termies idea. Guess I just miss the glory days.

[maverike_prime]

Your math is way off on that. Marines cost X amount of points to buy. none of them cost 3 or 5 more like you have stated in the post(they cost more than that). The icons are good because they are an item you can pay once, and its relatively cheap for most of em and it helps out the whole squad. Doing that gives you a slight advantage depending on the mark, also gives you a model that is equipped different that you can help use in your wound allocation. Plus the icons help you to be able to Deep strike in other units with no scatter.

Granted, the Icon only gives you half the ability you would have gotten, instead of you buying a full cult version. But it does save you points. I run 3- 4 squads of marines in each of my lists inside rhinos. The fewer point cost and the ability helps out alot when you add all the individual amounts of points up for that many guys in an army.

 

What he means is if you have a 10 man CSM squad, and you buy the Icon of Nurgle for the squad, you can spend like 10 points more and get a Plague marine unit which is comparatively a better unit for the cost. not totally sure I agree but there it is.

[Ace of Gods]

What he means is if you have a 10 man CSM squad, and you buy the Icon of Nurgle for the squad, you can spend like 10 points more and get a Plague marine unit which is comparatively a better unit for the cost. not totally sure I agree but there it is.

 

 

yeah but thats wrong is what im saying. for 10-40 pts you can get an icon. but to upgrade to a cult unit, it is like 6-8 pts PER MODEL. and im looking at it from the standpoint of mostly using the khorne, slaanesh icons, seems those are used the most on csm squads with what ive seen. nurgle and tzeentch are used on higher end units alot. like bikes, or termies.

 

EDIT TO ADD::

ohh i think i am getting what your saying. your saying CSM costs XXX pts. ad nurgle banner XX, so they equal XXX now. but for just 3 pts more or whatever, they can be full cult units. but then, your paying (in essence) the price of a banner PLUS points. so its doenst really balance out that way, because you woulndt need a banner when buying the cult ones, so that price cant be used to count as the base before adding points to upgrade to full cult.

[maverike_prime]

What he means is if you have a 10 man CSM squad, and you buy the Icon of Nurgle for the squad, you can spend like 10 points more and get a Plague marine unit which is comparatively a better unit for the cost. not totally sure I agree but there it is.

 

 

yeah but thats wrong is what im saying. for 10-40 pts you can get an icon. but to upgrade to a cult unit, it is like 6-8 pts PER MODEL. and im looking at it from the standpoint of mostly using the khorne, slaanesh icons, seems those are used the most on csm squads with what ive seen. nurgle and tzeentch are used on higher end units alot. like bikes, or termies.

 

EDIT TO ADD::

ohh i think i am getting what your saying. your saying CSM costs XXX pts. ad nurgle banner XX, so they equal XXX now. but for just 3 pts more or whatever, they can be full cult units. but then, your paying (in essence) the price of a banner PLUS points. so its doenst really balance out that way, because you woulndt need a banner when buying the cult ones, so that price cant be used to count as the base before adding points to upgrade to full cult.

 

well it depends on what you are doing with the units. 10 man CSM with Mark of Khorne ARE NOT as effective in Close combat as a 10 man Zerkie squad. Like wise if you give a 10 man CSM mark of Nurgle, Plague marines you do not have. CSM squads are more versatile while the cult squads are A) Fearless and B have other abilities over their non-cult brothers.

[Warp space]

Commenting off the EDIT.

Yes the combined cost of a CSM + (Icon divided by 10), makes each marine relitivly 3pts less than the real thing. Zerkers come out at the same point ratrio. Of course your can't take Lascannons in Zerker squads,

Except for the Icon of Chaos Glory i just do not see the point of the Icons in CSM squads. Plague, zerkers, thousand, and Noise marines are just (To me that is) a better choice for a few points more.

Next part of this question does any one ever use Icons in their CSM(none termy/biker) squads???? what has been your expierence? running them????

[maverike_prime]

you mean other then an Icon of Chaos Glory?

[Brother Nihm]

Outside of Cult Troops there is only IoCG for me, that goes for my non-NL armies as well.

Other icons are simply not worth it, as there is too many ways to shut the benefits (from a more expensive icon type) down.

 

My 2 Kraks

[maverike_prime]

every unit in my army has an icon, weather it's a pursonal Icon or a Icon of marking. The reason for this rule is simple: I maintain a unit of Terminators with Icon of Tzeentch with Abaddon in reserve that I deep strike in to deal with a problem that may arrise.

[Legatus]

Berserkers and Noise Marines do not get two Flamers or Meltaguns. Plague Marines or Thousand Sons do not get Missile Launchers or Laser Cannons. Thousand Sons also have fewer attacks and cannot get a power fist. Naturally the Icons are a bit more interresting on the other choices in the Codex, as you cannot have Berserkers with jump packs or Thousand Sons Terminators, but they have a few limited uses. They are also good for themed armies.

[Mr. Sandbot]

Eh depends.

To be quite honest, IoCG is the best icon to purchase for them. Its cheap and it fixes the whole "not fearless" problem.

Beyond that, you'd only ever buy Icons for basic CSM because you want to make the best use of the CSM's generalist nature, for fluff or you want to increase the survivability of your CSM. (of in which, may I add, IoCG completes most of those for less).

 

Example: Berzerkers can't take 2 melta guns, but basic CSM can. As a result, you'd have the middle ground between berzerker and CSM by purchasing an icon of khorne.

So a basic squad of 10 with an icon of khorne and 2x melta come down to xx0pts.

30 attacks in cc. 40 on charge.

7 khorne berzerkers, and a skull champ with a power fist is about xx8 pts.

23 attacks in cc. 2 of those being power fist attacks. 31 attacks on charge (at s5 I5), 3 being power fist attacks.

 

So mainly, your paying 8pts in total for fearless and furious charge, but your also losing out on more AT power.

[Brother Kovash]

Simple, I use them for deep striking in my termicide and lesser daemons wherever I need them. Althought I have added Mark of Slaanesh to my Raptor squad to make sure they strike first in combat most times.

[the jeske]

Example: Berzerkers can't take 2 melta guns, but basic CSM can. As a result, you'd have the middle ground between berzerker and CSM by purchasing an icon of khorne.

only the middle ground between taking meltas and taking zerkers is not taking csm with icon of khorn , but taking PMs.

[Man Behind The Curtain]

its important to remember that some rules are not meant to be used by themselves.

 

now Icons can be very useful when use din conjunction with terminators, bikers, havocs, and chosen, and even possessed where they can be used to amplify existing traits such as the 5+ invuln into 4+ invuln with tzeentch and a host of other obvious things.

 

and it first glance compared to legion marines a troops choice marine squad with an icon can seem pointless.

 

enter Fabius Bile.

 

His bonuses apply to only a few specific entries in the CSM codex... Your basic chaos space marine, Chaos space marine bikers and i think chaos space marine chosen.

 

Now if we compare a fabius bile enhanced CSm squad with Icon of say Slaanesh...then we have a squad that outperforms khorne berzerkers when they are being charged by the enemey rather than the preferable you charging them.

 

Whats the point of that you ask? well Rhinos aren;t open topped or assault vehicles and since not everyone wants to shell out a tonne of points for a machine spiritless land raider to house their assault troops, being able to unload and shoot superior ranged weaponry such as plasma guns or melta guns then recieve a charge form the enemy only to act as if you had used furious charge, witht eh +1 Initiative of MoS and the +1 Str and fearless of fabius bile.

 

This makes Fabius bile enhanced MoS marines vastly superior to khorne berzerkers for mounting in rhinos.

 

This is just one example and there are mahy many more but essentially Icons of the chaos gods were designed to be used with fabius bile.

[Brother Nihm]

While I like the premise, it just doesn't work for me.

 

His bonuses apply to only a few specific entries in the CSM codex... Your basic chaos space marine, Chaos space marine bikers and i think chaos space marine chosen.

The problem is you have to pay for him and the icon, which means your HQ model is weak and you have 1 less (or none at all) Prince, Sorc or Lord. You may as well just take Berzerkers.

 

This makes Fabius bile enhanced MoS marines vastly superior to khorne berzerkers for mounting in rhinos.

Nobody takes Fabius for Fabius, they take him for his buffs, or as part of a Campaign. :D

[Possessed Marine]

While I like the premise, it just doesn't work for me.

 

His bonuses apply to only a few specific entries in the CSM codex... Your basic chaos space marine, Chaos space marine bikers and i think chaos space marine chosen.

The problem is you have to pay for him and the icon,

 

not only that but you also have to pay x points per model to enhance each squad of CSM's... so the zerk's still end up on top really

[Brother Nihm]

Woops, forgot to mention that his buffs can only be applied to basic CSM, as per RAW.

[Man Behind The Curtain]

if you read his entry the buffs apply to anything classified as a "Chaos Space Marine" in its unit entry and this applies to CSMs, bikers and Chosen.

 

Also people underestimate fabius in combat i mean sure he doesn;t ignore armour saves but apart from that hes pretty good.

 

and the upgrade at 3 pts per model + IoS brings a 10 man slaanesh icon Bile Marine squad to 200? + special weapons

 

whilst 10 zerkers is 210 plus inferior special weapons and unable to use their +1 str and +1Int except when charging.

 

the important part here is that we can;t charge out of moving rhinos which is the largest limit to chaos Space Marine tactics in the codex and the use of Bile Marines partially solves this issue.

 

Sure I owuldn;t do it in less thana 2000 point game and you'd want to have a force made predominantly of units that can use Fabius' buff which limits you but that doesn;t change that its an interesting tactic and a possible use for Icons especially when combined with Lesser Demon assaults

[Brother Nihm]

For x pts per model, any number of Chaos Space Marine squads can be 'enhanced' by Bile's treatment.

There's only one type of squad in the Codex that fall under that clause by RAW. Otherwise you could modify Daemons, TSons, Plague Marines, Possessed etc.

[Dan The Deamon]

I think what he's referring to is that Havocs, Chosen, and chaos bikers are all listed under Chaos Space Marines on page 26-27.

 

Interestingly it has units from elite, heavy, fast, and troops falling in under "Chaos Space Marines"

 

I understand the argument could be made that chaos space marines is the title of the book, therefor everything falls under its title, but then page 26-27 wouldn't be here.

 

I've never looked at it this way. Seems to make sense to me.

[Brother Nihm]

But it doesn't stop there, Terminators and Possessed (pages 28 & 29) are also mentioned as being well, Chaos Space Marines. Does that mean Fabius can buff them?

 

If so, 'I'll take two!' (so to speak) :D

[Shas'o R'Vre]

I think what he's referring to is that Havocs, Chosen, and chaos bikers are all listed under Chaos Space Marines on page 26-27.

 

Interestingly it has units from elite, heavy, fast, and troops falling in under "Chaos Space Marines"

 

I understand the argument could be made that chaos space marines is the title of the book, therefor everything falls under its title, but then page 26-27 wouldn't be here.

 

I've never looked at it this way. Seems to make sense to me.

 

But it doesn't stop there, Terminators and Possessed (pages 28 & 29) are also mentioned as being well, Chaos Space Marines. Does that mean Fabius can buff them?

 

If this does work, this may change Bile's effectiveness permenantly. For the better.

 

*goes to find an F.A.Q*

 

[Edit] Couldn't find anything about it in the latest F.A.Q... Might have to write to Mr Thorpe or another member of the GW team to get an answer :D

[Dan The Deamon]

Good luck getting a straight answer. A change like that would change the entire chaos book as we know it. They won't even update war gear in the DH/WH PDF books. They have no idea, nor do they care to give us a hint, or find out how it will even change the game.

 

Pessimistic anyone?