PDFs are up

[Brovius]

"Why collect a Daemonhunters Army?"

 

Good question.

Here's the answer: Daemonhunters are an elite army that have no access to any of the great new rules and units available to our beloved Space Marines. They are an army for players who don't care about winning, because you almost never will. Daemonhunters are purely an army for hobbyists and fluff-enthusiasts (Not for much longer if Ward starts working on the new codex).

[Valerian]

Having read through both 'updates', I see that it was completely unnecessary to take a break from the Inquisition Project in anticipation of a respectable product.

Back to work, then ...

 

Well i'm going to try out the Pure Grey Knights Fandex this sunday in a 4000pts match.

Maybe GW could take a lesson from the Inquisition Project as to how the codices should be

 

Brovius,

 

Are you using my Fandex for your game this Sunday? If so, please send me some feedback. I would love to know how it works out for you, and any impressions that you, and your opponents, have on it.

 

For anyone else who wants to give it a try, here is the link: Pure Grey Knights Fandex. This is the version in my blog, which is slightly more updated than the .pdf version that is available in the downloads section of the BnC, here. You still won't be able to play it in a tournament (unless you check beforehand and get a very relaxed tournament organizer), but at least it is a competitive, yet balanced army list for non-tournament play among friends.

 

Valerian

[Astrator]

Geez, there's a lot of knee-jerking going on around here.

 

As has been mentioned by a few other posters, there is absolutely nothing which suggests that the downloadable PDF's are meant to replace our printed Codices. The only people referring to this as an "update" are disgruntled DH and WH players-- GW has not referred to it as that, at all. People heard that GW would be releasing PDF's, then raised their expectations unreasonably high in preparation. Of course, when the real release came, that led to disappointment.

 

For those citing the page numbering as evidence that GW made alterations, please note that several programs for authoring PDF's, including Acrobat, utilize automated page count generation functions. Removal of pages from the document would automatically lead to corrected page enumeration. It's not likely that GW manually edited each of the page numbers.

 

Additionally, for those comparing this to the BA, the analogy is disingenuous and false. GW specifically marketed that as an update for BA, published first in White Dwarf and then on the web. It was not a simple republication of the previous Codex with minor revisions to a few numbers. In our case, GW has never referred to the downloadable DH and WH codices as updates. They only stated that the codices would be available for download.

 

Now, I am disappointed that GW decided to post redacted versions of the books rather than the full text, but I don't find that excruciatingly difficult to deal with considering I bought my printed copies half-a-decade ago. Would I have liked a free update to our rules? Absolutely! Who wouldn't? Of course, then everyone would be complaining that GW half-assed our update, just like the BA players did when they got the WD codex.

 

GW is not the Devil just because they didn't give us the attention we would have wanted.

[Oiad]

^ This.

 

GW are surely treating this is an extended resource, not a replacement. Only two things which has been mishandled. The first is taking too much time to set up the PDF - it's obviously a rush job which has taken little effort to produce but too long to setup. The second is how they've marketed it's launch. Rejoice players! - About what? It's all old hat that we've known of for a decade. How can they not expect players to feel underwhelmed following some hype?

 

Still, the most discerning news this event has produced is in revealing how many players will moan when they think a terrible concept - 'a crutch' is taken away from them.

[Firenze]

What will be funny is when you turn up to play alongside a player with the PDF DH codex when you use your printed one with Allies. 'Oh, do you not get super cool units from other armies? Diddums.'

 

This should be quite fun actually. Well, for me at any rate :woot:

[boreas]

Still, the most discerning news this event has produced is in revealing how many players will moan when they think a terrible concept - 'a crutch' is taken away from them.

 

This I disagree with... For many players, myself included, allies were the only way we could expand our DH army. Both in terms of fluff (by playing a radical =I=) and hobby. Now, I agree that I've got my printed copy (bought 7 years ago, roughly) and can still play all my models because I only play friendly games. But still, I think it's downright callous from GW to try and fix the whole "=I= and mystics in WAAC IG" but not make the small adjustments the real fanbase needed. Like so many thing in real society, the government tends to troublemakers but doesn't give a damn about honest working people.

 

Phil

[Gentlemanloser]

For those citing the page numbering as evidence that GW made alterations, please note that several programs for authoring PDF's, including Acrobat, utilize automated page count generation functions. Removal of pages from the document would automatically lead to corrected page enumeration. It's not likely that GW manually edited each of the page numbers.

 

OK.

 

But the Inducted unit rules were *deliberately* replaced by new pictures. This wasn't an automation, it was a concious decision to replce some rules, probably becuase they were linked to the allies rules they wanted to remove.

[Brovius]

For those citing the page numbering as evidence that GW made alterations, please note that several programs for authoring PDF's, including Acrobat, utilize automated page count generation functions. Removal of pages from the document would automatically lead to corrected page enumeration. It's not likely that GW manually edited each of the page numbers.

 

OK.

 

But the Inducted unit rules were *deliberately* replaced by new pictures. This wasn't an automation, it was a concious decision to replce some rules, probably becuase they were linked to the allies rules they wanted to remove.

 

The Gentleman has a point.

I did a side-by-side comparison of the Codex and the PDF, and sure enough, they have deliberately covered up the entire Inducted unit section with Grey Knights artwork. It's meant to be on the page underneath the Transports and the beginning of the Heavy Support section of the Daemonhunters codex

 

 

@Valerian

I didn't know about the PDF of your fandex, i'll go check it out though ;)

I already printed out the link you recommended the other week, and allowed my opponent to check it out, and he's allowing me to use it (despite thinking that a Grand Master shouldn't be able to use that many psychic powers) so he thinks it's pretty fair.

But it looks like the psychic powers are a part of what makes the Grand Master a 250 point model, so if he wants to make me use one less power a turn, he's going to have to let me drop the points on the Grand Masters

 

It looks pretty fair and balanced, i'd love to see a PDF of the updated fandex in a similar format to the current GW codices, it should be really cool.

I'll post the results after the match, 4000pts should be able to give us all a fair summation of the fandex and how balanced it is

[number6]

Everybody knows that the latest version of a codex is the one that take precedence.

 

Have we already forgetten that the DH codex went through three reprintings?

Or that the WH codex went through two?

 

And that rules were silently changed at each reprint?!

 

There's a reason a few responses to these posts have been surprise at Rhino Repair or Land Raider Machine spirit "suddenly" showing up in the WH codex! (While others have known about these "alterations" all along.)

 

The online codexes are the "latest printings" of our codexes. These are now the "RAW of the land" (excuse the pun). Induction (for DH) is gone. Allies (for both armies) are gone. This is the new reality.

 

As always, you may continue to use whatever rules you like so long as your opponent agrees with them. But outside of that stipulation, RAW is the order of the day.

[Astrator]

But the Inducted unit rules were *deliberately* replaced by new pictures. This wasn't an automation, it was a concious decision to replce some rules, probably becuase they were linked to the allies rules they wanted to remove.

Yes, it seems fairly obvious that the Allies and Inducted rules were intentionally removed (though they seem to have forgotten one spot in the WH book). Even without the strategically placed images, it wouldn't make sense to include all of the rules and minimal fluff, only to forget to include Allies and Adversaries.

 

However, I contend that the impact of such removal on the actual game is negligible. Again, GW has never stated that these downloads are intended to update or replace our current books. They are simple game aids, like a buffed up version of the PDF Reference Sheets.

[Eddie Orlock]

These are now the "RAW of the land" (excuse the pun).

Excuse you, no. I shall fete you for it and save that for use later. It is not every day I see such a wonderful phrase coined.

[Daedalus Templarius]

This is an email from GW in response about 'Ard Boyz

 

Flag this messageDemonhunters and Witchhunters in the Ardboyz finalsThursday, June 24, 2010 8:44 AM

From: "Brendan Bell" <brendan.bell@games-workshop.com>Add sender to ContactsTo: undisclosed-recipientsHello,

 

 

 

There have been a number of questions regarding Demonhunters and Witchhunters and allies for the 2010 40K Ard Boyz Finals.

 

 

 

The Finals will use the printed rules that were used in the first two rounds; you will be able to use allies.

 

 

 

Thanks,

 

 

 

Brendan

 

So looks like for THIS 'Ard Boyz, allies are still in effect. Makes you wonder why they even did this right now.

 

Also quick question about the Fandex, while I like what I see, Machine Lance seems alright, but kind of meh. I'd just copy blood lance, and call it Holy Lance or something, it is actually quite a useful power rather than just shaking or stunning. Also, 200 pts for a PAGK squad, that is 50 more points than they are now, but not significantly better. Yes they get a free psychic power and actual true grit, but that is still a ton of points for guys that will die to shooting just like regular marines. The 5+ shrouding is nice, but that can't really be counted on at all. Grandmaster seems a bit expensive for what you get, that is the same amount of points for Mephiston, but I guess at least he has a 4+ invuln and psychic powers (which all seem pretty good). I really like being able to replace just the stormbolter with a stormshield on the GKT :), gotta keep that NFW! Also, Stormravens are awesome. Venerable dread should be a psyker and have access to two powers or so (it is, after all, almost the exact same price as a Librarian Dread).

[Astrator]

The online codexes are the "latest printings" of our codexes. These are now the "RAW of the land" (excuse the pun). Induction (for DH) is gone. Allies (for both armies) are gone. This is the new reality.

No, they aren't. In order to be the "latest printing," they must (by definition) be printed. Again, the BA Codex was both demonstrably updated AND printed in WD. Our codices have simply been redacted and posted online. That's a big difference.

[number6]

No, they aren't. In order to be the "latest printing," they must (by definition) be printed. Again, the BA Codex was both demonstrably updated AND printed in WD. Our codices have simply been redacted and posted online. That's a big difference.

Don't be pedantically silly, Astrator! :lol: That's like saying the BA PDF codex that existed for so long wasn't legal to use, and BA players would have been forced to use their old codex as the only legal option. (After all, GW never mandated that every BA player buy two issues of White Dwarf! Especially because a few minor changes made their way into the PDF version that were never in print!)

[Astrator]

No, they aren't. In order to be the "latest printing," they must (by definition) be printed. Again, the BA Codex was both demonstrably updated AND printed in WD. Our codices have simply been redacted and posted online. That's a big difference.

Don't be pedantically silly, Astrator! :lol: That's like saying the BA PDF codex that existed for so long wasn't legal to use, and BA players would have been forced to use their old codex as the only legal option. (After all, GW never mandated that every BA player buy two issues of White Dwarf! Especially because a few minor changes made their way into the PDF version that were never in print!)

Actually, GW did mandate use of the BA Codex from WD. It was highly advertised well in advance, and was specifically defined as being the new and updated rules for Blood Angels. Again, that is vastly different from a tiny blurb in WD stating that the codices will be available for download. For DH/WH, there was no acknowledgement of rules being altered or updated, there was no marketing as being a replacement of current rules, and there was no printed run of the alteration.

 

Which minor changes were never printed previously?

[number6]

GW doesn't require players to purchase WD to play Warhammer.

 

And as with the BA codex, GW has been advertising for a while now that the Inquisition codexes would be available for download. So nothing new there.

 

Your argument about having to actually be "printed" is ludicrous. No FAQs are ever "printed", yet we acknowledge them as officially binding. What's different?

 

I'm going to have to defer to BA players about the updates. I got that info from them. I don't buy WD. It's a rag. :lol:

[Eiric Hakon]

Queery: Is it just me or has the FOC vanished from the DH codex? or are we supposed to use the WH FOC which would still grant DH all of the prior benefits.

 

Also if the FOC is gone does that mean I could use the Multiple Detachments rule in a simmilar way to the old allies table?

 

Also as Inducted units are gone can't the Multiple Detachments rule still be used to the same end?

 

Sorry if this came up eariler in the thread but I saw nothing

[Verythrax Draconis]

Queery: Is it just me or has the FOC vanished from the DH codex? or are we supposed to use the WH FOC which would still grant DH all of the prior benefits.

 

Also if the FOC is gone does that mean I could use the Multiple Detachments rule in a simmilar way to the old allies table?

 

Also as Inducted units are gone can't the Multiple Detachments rule still be used to the same end?

 

Sorry if this came up eariler in the thread but I saw nothing

 

 

It came early, but I'm not sure in which one of the dozen related discussions B)

 

The codex FOC should be used "if available". Otherwise, use the generic one in the rulebook, that (gasp!) is basically the same.

 

they must (by definition) be printed.

wait a min, I'm just finishing downloading the PDF and turning on my printer.

 

^_^

[Gentlemanloser]

You know what the 'Ard Boyz ruling says to me?

 

That for the sake of continuity, allies will be continued to be used, as they were allowed at the start. But don't expect to see them allowed again after this tournament... (otherwise the wording would have been far different!)

 

If that doesn't point to an intentional 'update', I don't know what will...

[Artein]

This is how I see it....

They've deleted by accident a page with DH FOC and they've forgotten to remove Inducted rules from C:WH.

[Astrator]

GW doesn't require players to purchase WD to play Warhammer.

GW doesn't require players to purchase the rulebook or a Codex to play Warhammer, either. I know plenty of people who personally own neither and yet play the game. Heck, you aren't even required to purchase models; you could scratch-build an entire army, if you so desired.

 

My point is that White Dwarf is an official GW publication, and that there is a precedent for official Chapter Approved army lists appearing in that magazine. There is no precedent for major official rules updates being solely distributed through the web.

 

And as with the BA codex, GW has been advertising for a while now that the Inquisition codexes would be available for download. So nothing new there.

For BA, GW specifically marketed the WD rules as being their new, updated Codex, and advertised heavily in that vain. For DH/WH, GW tucked a tiny inset blurb into a page of a White Dwarf one month beforehand which did not even hint at the idea of the codices being revised or updated in any manner.

 

That's quite a bit of difference, don't you think?

 

Your argument about having to actually be "printed" is ludicrous. No FAQs are ever "printed", yet we acknowledge them as officially binding. What's different?

What's different is that the FAQ's are not designed to be wholesale replacements of a codex, as you are suggesting for these new downloads. I actually have no problem viewing these downloads in similar measure as the FAQ's, since the omission of a reference to certain rules in an FAQ does not mean those rules are no longer valid.

 

I'm going to have to defer to BA players about the updates. I got that info from them. I don't buy WD. It's a rag. :rolleyes:

I generally don't buy WD, either, except in the instances where I know it has something I might find useful-- for example, my OK Rhinox Riders and Gnoblar Horde, or the rules for Spearhead, or an entirely new Codex.

[Astrator]

Hopefully this will put some of the nonsense to rest:

 

http://ottawagamer.blogspot.com/2010/06/de...nswer-from.html

[Oiad]

This I disagree with... For many players, myself included, allies were the only way we could expand our DH army. Both in terms of fluff (by playing a radical =I=) and hobby. Now, I agree that I've got my printed copy (bought 7 years ago, roughly) and can still play all my models because I only play friendly games. But still, I think it's downright callous from GW to try and fix the whole "=I= and mystics in WAAC IG" but not make the small adjustments the real fanbase needed. Like so many thing in real society, the government tends to troublemakers but doesn't give a damn about honest working people.

 

Apologies, don't expect me to be happy with the idea of losing Allies as SoB/GK combos are something I was very supportive of and I was considering doing an Exorcists count as BA list too. It's just as someone else pointed out on the board 'We knew the Allies rule was leaving, but most of us expected it to disappear when the new Codex hit the shelves' and would have to give up our list extra lists sooner or later. It's most likely saved some of us money getting rid of the option. Hehe, so GW haven't necessarilly helped their finances playing this card.

 

As for the above source, I hope there is a general statement release of sorts concerning this issue otherwise I don't think it's strong enough to stick for everyone.

[Gentlemanloser]

What's different is that the FAQ's are not designed to be wholesale replacements of a codex, as you are suggesting for these new downloads.

 

How about the official Errata, that is contianed in the FAQs?

 

Things like correcting Wolf Lords to be able to purchase Frost Blades in TDA, and the like.

 

Hopefully this will put some of the nonsense to rest:

 

No, not really. You'll get a gazillion different answers from contacting GW.

 

And as mentioned numerous times in these threads, the Inducted unit rules weren't 'accidentally' left ou or missed in the C&P. They were *deliberately* changed to new pictures...

[Valerian]

@Valerian

I didn't know about the PDF of your fandex, i'll go check it out though :lol:

 

I did the PDF first and it was accepted into the Downloads section of the BnC. Afterward, I added in options for the Grey Knights Land Raider Redeemer, which I didn't have earlier, and added the Stormraven, when its details were released with the Blood Angels codex and all the background material pointed to their use with the Grey Knights, and just made the changes in my Blog (so the Blog is slightly more updated than the PDF). Those are the only two major differences between the two versions, although there may also be some minor tweaking that I've forgotten about.

 

I already printed out the link you recommended the other week, and allowed my opponent to check it out, and he's allowing me to use it (despite thinking that a Grand Master shouldn't be able to use that many psychic powers) so he thinks it's pretty fair.

But it looks like the psychic powers are a part of what makes the Grand Master a 250 point model, so if he wants to make me use one less power a turn, he's going to have to let me drop the points on the Grand Masters

 

Exactly, there is a reason that my Grand Master costs 250 before any upgrades. Basically, he already starts out as tough and capable as any other army's special characters, like Mephiston, Njal, Logan, etc. I think for what he does, the points are fair. Additionally, none of the Psychic Powers that I've included are over-the-top; they are all useful, but don't unhinge the game. If your opponent doesn't like the fact that he can drop 3 Psychic Powers per turn, then you can adjust that, but his points would need to come down some to compensate for that.

 

It looks pretty fair and balanced, i'd love to see a PDF of the updated fandex in a similar format to the current GW codices, it should be really cool.

I'll post the results after the match, 4000pts should be able to give us all a fair summation of the fandex and how balanced it is

 

I'll be looking forward to your feedback,

 

V