combat tactics

[The Unknown Father]

I have been watching this forum (and I think it is great :lol: ) and i realized that anyone ever talks about this special rule that for me is one of the greatest advantages of vanilla marines if you compared them with blood angels, space wolves or caos marines. Remember that as an space marine you will not loose the combat with a wide difference and also you have a good I and they shall know fear and great armour. Almost nothing happens if you flee!

 

From my point of view this rule could be used for:

 

-go out of the combat if you can´t beat the enemy (for example if an enemy dreadnought assault your tactic squad) including go out of the combat if you are figthing against 2 or more squads and then attacking only one

 

-made impossible to your enemy to shoot and assault because if you take enough casualty you fail your morale test and then you shoot and/or assault the enemy

 

I would like to know your oppinion about that rule and if you know any other use for it

[Iron Father Rik]

When the codex first came out, I made good use of this rule. Unfortunately I didn't play a lot of 40k, or any game for that matter the past year or so, thanks to work (when you work at GW you don't tend to go in to work on your days off much), and recently in my games I've been forgetting about it! However, I found it was a great wee rule.

 

I'd use it mostly when I was in combat and the combat was becoming a stalemate, or I was clearly losing. You need to wait until it's combat during your opponent's turn, otherwise this will just backfire on you badly. You try to lose the combat (but not too badly), and then elect to fail your leadership test due to Combat Tactics. Hopefully you will break away, which means when you auto-rally at the start of your turn, you turn around and shoot at whatever you were in combat with. This will usually finish off that unit, and get them out of your hair - especially if you have another, back-up unit nearby to add to the weight of fire, or charge in if necessary (since the unit that broke from combat will probably be severely under-strength by now).

 

This tactic can be especially good if you got trapped in combat by something that you have a very hard time destroying, such as dreadnoughts or wraithlords. Pull back and then melta, and have a back-up unit with a powerfist ready to jump in and finish it off.

[Giga]

It's a great rule if you're playing against a beginner or a noob. Proper players simply won't shoot you if they want to assault you afterward.

 

As for assault, it's only useful if you need to shoot down the unit that charged you, but even then is risky because your own unit is likely to keep running in the following turns. Bikes and jumppackers are the only unit that really benefits from this, as their 3d6" run move means they're likely to get further away and be able to regroup in the following turns.

 

Either way, combat tactics requires you to lose an assault or otherwise get shot up before you can use it. It's pretty lame as far as I'm concerned, and I'm not at all sorry when I replace it with any SC's chapter tactics.

[The Unknown Father]

Giga, I don´t understand why you say: " but even then is risky because your own unit is likely to keep running in the following turns." we have shall they know fear so we will stop running in the following turn

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I put it to good use against a Tau opponent. He hammered a dismounted Tactical Squad with two squads' worth of Fire Warriors and caused a check. There was also a big group of kroot nearby with some hounds, ready to assault me. I chose to fail and fell back, auto-regrouping in my turn. I moved back up and rapid fired the kroot, who passed their check. Wash, rinse, and repeat for two more turns and I had only five Marines left, but the Kroot were all dead and I took the objective that we were sparring over.

 

And if you do use it and fall back and the enemy stays within 6" to keep you running, that means that they're within 1. melta range and 2. rapid fire range. You'll keep falling back, but depending on field position, you should get a couple of turns of blasting your "escort" unit and hopefully kill them off, thus allowing that squad to get back into the fight.

 

Is it a perfect rule? No. Does it have its uses? Most definitely.

[Iron Father Rik]

Giga, I don´t understand why you say: " but even then is risky because your own unit is likely to keep running in the following turns." we have shall they know fear so we will stop running in the following turn

Because if the enemy consolidates after you broke off from combat, and manages to remain within 6" of your unit(s), then you cannot regroup. ATSKNF doesn't get around that.

[The Unknown Father]

Yipes! yes i realised of that later. thank you anyway

[Koremu]

Giga, I don´t understand why you say: " but even then is risky because your own unit is likely to keep running in the following turns." we have shall they know fear so we will stop running in the following turn

Because if the enemy consolidates after you broke off from combat, and manages to remain within 6" of your unit(s), then you cannot regroup. ATSKNF doesn't get around that.

The way to get around this, as a side note, is to use a Chaplain.

 

Your unit retreats from combat, the enemy consolidates to within 6", then in your movement you move the Chaplain over to join the Squad - they automatically Rally at the start of their movement (but can't move, as the IC has already moved prior to joining the Squad), but they can then Assault or fire Heavy Weapons, thanks to ATSKNF!

 

Plus of course, because the enemy was following you to shepherd you off the board, there's always an Assault victim within 6", and you get to reroll to hit thanks to the Chaplain :o

 

After a while, people stop trying to chase down your fleeing Squads if you do this. Works best with a JP Charlie for the greater movement, giving him a larger "catchment" zone. You can use a Bike, but you can't Assault if you Turbo-Boost (the Squad can still shoot though).

[Giga]

On average, a 2d6" run roll will get you between 6-8" run. An opponent gets a consolidation roll 1d6, and moves after you. Chances are very high that he'll stay in 6" of your unit, which will result in your unit running in your turn as well, probably for another 6-8". Hence, statistically, you should run between 12-18" in those two turns, which is more then enough to end up with your unit running too far away to have an effect on the battle, or even running off the table.

 

Thankfully, the retreating units can also RUN to increase their fall back and makes it more probable the enemy won't be able to keep up, so chances are that at least your unit will regroup in your following turn.

 

EDIT: Suffice to say, Combat Tactics is a crappy special rule simply because any smart opponent can neutralize it. What's more, things that can beat marines in assault usually have high initiative (or at least the same initiative as your marines) so chances are you'll be caught when you try to fall back out of combat, resulting in suffering more wounds from no retreat!

[Iron Father Rik]

but they can then Assault or fire Heavy Weapons, thanks to ATSKNF!

 

They cannot fire heavy weapons, unless they have relentless, as rallying counts as movement.

[Koremu]

but they can then Assault or fire Heavy Weapons, thanks to ATSKNF!

 

They cannot fire heavy weapons, unless they have relentless, as rallying counts as movement.

You might want to reread ATSKNF :o

[bystrom]

but the chaplain joined the squad, shouldn't the squad count as moved anyways considering one model's moved (the chaplain)?

[garreth]

No, unit doesn't count as moved.

 

If an independent character moves and joins or

leaves a unit that did not move, the character

counts as having moved in the ensuing Shooting

phase, but the unit does not.

 

BRB p. 48

[Khorneeq]

@Koremu

Just to keep with game rules.

Chaplain cannot join fleeing units. BRB p. 48.

[Jackelope King]

Suffice to say, Combat Tactics is a crappy special rule simply because any smart opponent can neutralize it. What's more, things that can beat marines in assault usually have high initiative (or at least the same initiative as your marines) so chances are you'll be caught when you try to fall back out of combat, resulting in suffering more wounds from no retreat!

Not at all. The choice to rally in the direction of a fleeing unit to "keep them broken" isn't always a good one, especially when you have other friendly units nearby. Consolidating into rapid-fire range of two other Tactical Squads and charge range of some Terminators, for instance. It's easily neutralized by a smart player going after isolated units, no question, Giga. It's not God's gift to Space Marines. It's a darn good one that's sort of a poor man's Hit & Run, but you need to have some experience to use it against a smart opponent.

 

You still can avoid being locked into close-combat with the enemy, and can run away after being shot to avoid being assaulted. And regardless of whether or not your squad can rally or not, it opens up an enemy unit to shooting from the rest of your army. Marines are a close-ranged shooty army, so even if it doesn't benefit that squad, it will benefit the rest of your army.

[Giga]

Not at all. The choice to rally in the direction of a fleeing unit to "keep them broken" isn't always a good one, especially when you have other friendly units nearby. Consolidating into rapid-fire range of two other Tactical Squads and charge range of some Terminators, for instance. It's easily neutralized by a smart player going after isolated units, no question, Giga. It's not God's gift to Space Marines. It's a darn good one that's sort of a poor man's Hit & Run, but you need to have some experience to use it against a smart opponent.

 

You still can avoid being locked into close-combat with the enemy, and can run away after being shot to avoid being assaulted. And regardless of whether or not your squad can rally or not, it opens up an enemy unit to shooting from the rest of your army. Marines are a close-ranged shooty army, so even if it doesn't benefit that squad, it will benefit the rest of your army.

Combat Tactics isn't a necessarily useless rule, but it's easily mitigated (by simply not shooting the unit you want to assault) and the chance to actually escape from assault is simply not good enough to make it truly worth it.

 

Now look at the special rules other marine armies have and you'll quickly come to the conclusion Combat Tactics is quite weak - especially in the light of Vulkan and Pedro's chapter tactics and, to some degree, Khan and Shrike's chapter tactics.

[Sparhawk]

I don't know that I always consider Stubborn to be a fantastic rule. It isn't as bad as Fearless but it can be easily turned against you by tarpit units.

 

I would also argue that one of your tactics for mitigating Combat Tactics can be considered advantageous. Choosing not to shoot at a unit because you know that they will be able to fall back out of Assault range reduces model losses thus helping to retain unit strength for the coming assault and/or allowing the unit to have a greater effect in its following shooting phase due to potentially higher weight of fire.

 

I'm not denigrating the other Chapter Tactics I just think that Combat Tactics gets a bit of a bum rap sometimes.

[waaanial00]

Some useful information on combining combat squads and combat tactics can be found here

[Giga]

I don't know that I always consider Stubborn to be a fantastic rule. It isn't as bad as Fearless but it can be easily turned against you by tarpit units.

Stubborn is considerably better then fearless simply because you're almost completely sure not to suffer any no retreat! wounds in combat.

 

As for the opponent not shooting me before assault... Seriously, when those berzerkers/death company/gray hunters/biker nobz/thunderwolf cavalry/etc. are about to assault your tacticals... Does it really matter much that they're gonna refrain from shooting their bolt pistols first? I'd say it really doesn't. You're gonna get your face smashed, pre-assault shooting or no pre-assault shooting.

 

EDIT: Oh and, Pedro's chapter tactics also confers the HOLD THE LINE! rule to your sternguard veterans, in addition to stubborn. I say that's far better then anything combat tactics has to offer.

[Sparhawk]

I think that when it comes to Assault specialist units then it is even more imperative to be able to get out of that combat without being wiped. You're right that your face is going to get smashed, because clearly there were some problems with a battle plan that isolates a unit in assault range of Zerkers or DC. But I hardly see how Stubborn is any better when you get smashed by a unit of Howling Banshees...

[Jackelope King]

The chance to escape from close combat isn't a game winner by any means, Giga. It's more the chance to expose an enemy unit to more shooting that's worth it. Having your unit survive and escape (which isn't as hard as you make it out to be on a real tabletop) to join in the shooting next turn is just gravy. I'll admit to being a little spoiled lately playing my Bikers (who have no problems getting away with a 3d6" Fall Back), but by supporting units with one another, you force the enemy to really decide whether or not it's worth "chasing" a Tactical Squad if it means being pulled into the rest of the force where they will get shot to pieces.

 

Now look at the special rules other marine armies have and you'll quickly come to the conclusion Combat Tactics is quite weak - especially in the light of Vulkan and Pedro's chapter tactics and, to some degree, Khan and Shrike's chapter tactics.

Here's where I have to disagree. Stubborn is really only good when you have a large number of small-sized units running around the board to tarpit the enemy (and hopefully do so inside of Pedro's +1A bubble, where suddenly 6-odd units of Sternguard will be hitting someone with 120 attacks). You need a very specific army for Stubborn to work for Codex: Space Marines. Khan's outflank is weak because outflank in general is weak. Not Khan's fault, and I love Hit & Run over Combat Tactics and he makes Bike Command Squads terrifying.

 

I agree that Vulkan's Chapter Tactics are nice, as are Shrike's, and while the armies they demand are more flexible than Pedro's or Lysander's, they still need more specific builds (Vulkan far less so than Shrike). Shrike needs an assault-happy army, which is pricey for Space Marines to do, and you're only really getting your money for Vulkan if you invest in TH/SS Terminators (as I assume you'll be taking plenty of melta and some flamers anyway).

 

The biggest problem with those special characters is that they essentially cost a premium beyond what HQ you might normally want (for me, my go-to HQ is a naked Librarian for most armies). Khan's sort of a special case, because he still qualifies as a Biker captain (though a Biker captain without a Relic blade is a little irritating for me, and the cost gives me the shakes).

[Koremu]

@Koremu

Just to keep with game rules.

Chaplain cannot join fleeing units. BRB p. 48.

Well damnit. I've even used that against staff members and didn't get called on it.

 

Shame, it was a really evocative move - the Chaplain turning up and pulling his brothers back into battle.

[Giga]

Stubborn is really only good when you have a large number of small-sized units running around the board to tarpit the enemy (and hopefully do so inside of Pedro's +1A bubble, where suddenly 6-odd units of Sternguard will be hitting someone with 120 attacks).

When I say Pedro's Chapter Tactics, I don't mean just stubborn. I also mean the HOLD THE LINE special rule that allows your sternguard to count as scoring units (it's a part of Pedro's chapter tactics). Stubborn+Hold The Line > Combat Tactics, any day. :angry:

[Fatuous]

On average, a 2d6" run roll will get you between 6-8" run. An opponent gets a consolidation roll 1d6, and moves after you. Chances are very high that he'll stay in 6" of your unit, which will result in your unit running in your turn as well, probably for another 6-8". Hence, statistically, you should run between 12-18" in those two turns, which is more then enough to end up with your unit running too far away to have an effect on the battle, or even running off the table.

 

Thankfully, the retreating units can also RUN to increase their fall back and makes it more probable the enemy won't be able to keep up, so chances are that at least your unit will regroup in your following turn.

 

EDIT: Suffice to say, Combat Tactics is a crappy special rule simply because any smart opponent can neutralize it. What's more, things that can beat marines in assault usually have high initiative (or at least the same initiative as your marines) so chances are you'll be caught when you try to fall back out of combat, resulting in suffering more wounds from no retreat!

 

 

Thanks I had totally forgotten that fleeing units can run as well, which 'may' get them out of range quicker.

 

I've found them usful so far, not the most powerful of special rules, but gives you a few more options, and some neat tricks.

 

That said, being shepparded off the board is a real problem, so it does need to be used carefully, but even this can be used to bait other units to give chase, so it can still be useful.

[DarkGuard]

If you use Combat Tactics all the time then you will get a lot of units being shepherded off the table. In one game recently there was the good and the bad side of Combat Tactics. One with my Sternguard unit, which fell back from an angry Libby to be able to regroup next turn and shoot at him. The other was my enemy's Tactical Squad, which fell back off the table because I just shepherded him. If you use it as a standard response to nearly everything you will get caught out, but if you don't like playing with those SCs, or don't have the points for them then using it sparingly and at key moments can often surprise your opponent and put you on top in the battle.