combat tactics

[Warprat]

I'm not all that impressed by combat tactics. If you couldn't get caught and locked into another round of combat by failing to get away from a sweeping advance, it would be much better...

 

Warprat ;)

[DarkGuard]

I'm not all that impressed by combat tactics. If you couldn't get caught and locked into another round of combat by failing to get away from a sweeping advance, it would be much better...

 

Warprat :pinch:

 

This depends though, because at times you'll loose that squad through No Retreat! wounds, freeing you up to shoot with supporting units. For example I was up against Dark Eldar today, his Incubi Ret and Archon charged my Sternguard Squad killing the Libby and wiping out all 8 Sternguard apart from the Sergeant. Sergeant did no wounds so chose to fall back, he caught me, and I died of No Retreat! wounds. Next turn my Vindy killed 3 models, he fell back and thanks to my Scouts positioning continued falling back until he had killed them through shooting, at his board edge.

 

All started with Combat Tactics kind of, which helped clear my objective of enemy presence and got rid of his most powerful unit, drawing me the game.

[Giga]

@ DarkGuard

 

Combat tactics made no difference in that situation. You lost combat by like 10 wounds. Meaning your sergeant's leadership was already at a -10 modifier, lowering it to 2, so you'd need snake eyes in order to pass that particular morale test. Hence, you're extremely likely to fail it anyway and the rest of the battle would play out the same.

 

Another thing I dislike about combat tactics is that it usually means you're relying on your opponent forgetting about it and shooting you before assaulting (and then you're relying on yourself failing some saves to force a morale test). Often when I use combat tactics in this way, my opponents are like "awww damn, I forgot about that rule". To me, getting an advantage by surprising your opponent like that cheapens the entire thing.

[DarkGuard]

@ DarkGuard

 

Combat tactics made no difference in that situation. You lost combat by like 10 wounds. Meaning your sergeant's leadership was already at a -10 modifier, lowering it to 2, so you'd need snake eyes in order to pass that particular morale test. Hence, you're extremely likely to fail it anyway and the rest of the battle would play out the same.

 

Another thing I dislike about combat tactics is that it usually means you're relying on your opponent forgetting about it and shooting you before assaulting (and then you're relying on yourself failing some saves to force a morale test). Often when I use combat tactics in this way, my opponents are like "awww damn, I forgot about that rule". To me, getting an advantage by surprising your opponent like that cheapens the entire thing.

 

Yeah you do have a point there actually. Only defence I can say is that if I didn't have Combat Tactics I would have been forced to attempt a morale check and could have rolled snake eyes :).

 

I suppose in the end the thing I like about Combat Tactics is that it allows for more varied and flexible builds. Looking at the special characters, if you take Vulkan then you're going to use melta and hammernators. using Pedro more or less guarantees you to use Sternguard. Shrike needs lots of assaulty troops to get the most of fleet and so on. I feel that using Chapter Tactics might give you the edge, but it also effectively straitjackets you into the use of a certain build and tactics, making you predictable. On the contrary my army is less predictable, with varied builds for my force, but if I used Vulkan then my enemy would know to just try and outrange me and keep me out of melta range.

 

EDIT: I also dislike using named Special Characters, even under 'counts as', as most of their rules don't fit with my fluff and the ones that do don't have the equipment that I would use. Of course in proper competitive fixtures like tournies I use the odd SC.

[Giga]

Only defence I can say is that if I didn't have Combat Tactics I would have been forced to attempt a morale check and could have rolled snake eyes

There's 2.8% chance you're gonna roll snake eyes on 2d6. It's probably higher with your average GW dice, but it's still a very low chance as 2 and 12 are two 2d6 results that have the lowest % chance to occur.

 

Either way, there was a ~97.2% chance you wouldn't need combat tactics to fail that leadership test. :D

 

 

 

 

 

Combat Tactics has nothing to do with variety. Combat Tactics is a shoddy and highly-situational special rule that you're stuck with if your army is led by generic HQs or ultramarine SCs. You're still stuck with the exact same units you have available to you if you use SCs, and - as far as competitive play goes - many if not most of these units just aren't viable enough to make them worth taking.

 

For example, a whirlwind is a pretty crappy tank overall. Just because I happen to be using a generic HQ doesn't make me suddenly want to take a whirlwind in a list. If I wanted to buy and use a whirlwind, I'd do it regardless of the HQ I'm using, as I'd be doing it purely for fun.

[Ookami_81]

Combat tactics may prove useful when you use it on bikes. Bikes love short range firing and fear long melees (more than 1 turn, that is). They also retreat 3d6 instead of two, and so it reasonably prevent them from the 6' consolidation problem. Bikes with Khan are cool, but so are they with Mr noname captain and its mighty noname relic blade... And combat tactics is a part of the interest of Mr noname.

[DarkGuard]

Combat Tactics has nothing to do with variety. Combat Tactics is a shoddy and highly-situational special rule that you're stuck with if your army is led by generic HQs or ultramarine SCs. You're still stuck with the exact same units you have available to you if you use SCs, and - as far as competitive play goes - many if not most of these units just aren't viable enough to make them worth taking.

 

For example, a whirlwind is a pretty crappy tank overall. Just because I happen to be using a generic HQ doesn't make me suddenly want to take a whirlwind in a list. If I wanted to buy and use a whirlwind, I'd do it regardless of the HQ I'm using, as I'd be doing it purely for fun.

 

I just meant that if I used Vulkan then my upgrades and choices are more or less chosen for me, and so's my playstyle. Hammernators, flamer and melta to take advantage of his special rules, and so therefore my army will have to play up close to the enemy to get maximum use. It gets you into the idea of thinking that you paid points for the Chapter Tactics, and so therefore you must use them. When I play Pedro I feel that I need a big squad of Sternguard in the army. It doesn't actually restrict you, but in a way it does. If that makes sense...

[Warprat]

Another thing I dislike about combat tactics is that it usually means you're relying on your opponent forgetting about it and shooting you before assaulting (and then you're relying on yourself failing some saves to force a morale test). Often when I use combat tactics in this way, my opponents are like "awww damn, I forgot about that rule". To me, getting an advantage by surprising your opponent like that cheapens the entire thing.

 

 

The falling back from shooting is usefull, but how many times do you take just over 25%. Seems like your either just taking a small amount of assault based shooting (like pistols), or ending up getting plastered by something horrible at range. Or multiple units shoot at the same target.

 

It would be more useful in Combat Squads, except anything that can put enough shooty wounds on you to use Combat Tactics, can just as easily hold its shooting and simply destroy you in close combat.

 

 

Combat tactics and power swords, I just can't seem to make them work...

 

Warprat ;)

[Slick Jimmy]

I find the rule very useful against opponents that may have certain advantages in CC over my marines, if I am beat by sheer numbers and forced to take moral, on the opponents turn I will choose to fail, fall back, and then assault on my turn, giving my marines the advantage of multiple charges. It isn't a flawless plan, but when it works, it does wonders. One of my favorite things is to keep a chappy close to big encounters, and attach him if possible to get the most out of a "Re-Charge" Or. If outmatched in CC squads like the Sternguard can fall back and unleash a great deal of damage rather than slugging it out with a bunch of Orks/Raptors/Chaos Marines/etc...

[Giga]

I just meant that if I used Vulkan then my upgrades and choices are more or less chosen for me, and so's my playstyle. Hammernators, flamer and melta to take advantage of his special rules, and so therefore my army will have to play up close to the enemy to get maximum use. It gets you into the idea of thinking that you paid points for the Chapter Tactics, and so therefore you must use them. When I play Pedro I feel that I need a big squad of Sternguard in the army. It doesn't actually restrict you, but in a way it does. If that makes sense...

That's a faulty perspective. There's no reason why a combipredator or a rifleman dreadnought wouldn't be just as effective in a Vulkan list as it would be in a Generic Captain list. You just get an impression that, because those multimeltas on attack bikes are TL-ed with Vulkan, you're somehow compelled to take them instead of other, just-as-effective, choices in the codex. You should snap out of it.

 

I'm not saying certain SCs don't encourage the use of certain units, but it isn't set in stone. The fact is, vanilla codex itself encourages the use of certain units simply because these certain units are superior or fill a necessary niche. Hence, you'll be using these units most of the time, regardless of what HQ you've got. The rest of the units, the not-so-effective ones, will mostly be used by beginners or players who are just fooling around, at which level it doesn't really matter what HQ they're running, anyway.

[Gothical]

I actually really value Combat Tactics with my Salamanders - and it's one of the reasons (amongst many) that I don't field Vulkan with them.

 

The main value, for me, comes from the fact that I prefer my Tactical Squads to be very shooting-oriented (albeit short-ranged with Flamers, Meltas and Rhinos) and have dedicated Combat units (Terminators, Command Squad, Dreadnought, Vanguard/Assault Marines) and the ability to fall back from close-combat allows me to bypass the (nearly) ubiquitous Power Fist - so Combat Tactics is saving me an average of 15pts-per-squad (I take a Combi-Weapon) which is then invested in different elements of the army.

 

Without Vulkan I also don't feel "straight-jacketed" into only taking Flamer/Melta weaponry (I still field fair numbers however), and personally I like Devastators so they add some long-ranged firepower to the army, preventing the army from being so predictable on the field. Combined with a few cheap Predators and the option to choose between each type of Terminator (I still value the "standard" Terminators with twin-Heavy Flamer, a much under-rated unit) and the army is much more flexible -though whether it is more powerful is a matter for the tabletop- than many of the same-y Vulkan armies out there.

 

And Combat Tactics lets you flee those Thunder Hammer-wielding Terminators, which is always good for a laugh (hitting them with multiple squads' bolters finishes them quite quickly) against those armies. Given that a large proportion of Space Marine armies field those Terminators, it can be quite valuable if you face Space Marines a lot.

 

Sure, it's not 100% reliable, and you don't want to always use it - but I find it's a very handy rule to have - too many times with Vulkan/Stubborn armies have I got bogged-down into combats that I just wished I could get away from. Those two builds/special rules have merits of their own, but I do not feel that Combat Tactics should be so overlooked as it currently is.

[Warprat]

So you are electing to rapid fire, flame, melta, whatever and then recieve the charge, unless your a CC oriented squad, in which case you charge instead. Falling back in the shooting phase, if taking 25%. If not, then falling back in the enemy's close combat phase, if possible. Then shooting or re-charging, on your following turn, depending on what works best.

 

How do you prevent the enemy from simply following you and preventing rally? Dreadnought, or a 2nd row of troops would work. What do people use? Also, does anybody manage to do this with Combat Squads?

 

Can you please describe the squence of events for the tactically challenged?

 

 

 

Thanks!

 

Warprat ;)

[Gothical]

So you are electing to rapid fire, flame, melta, whatever and then recieve the charge, unless your a CC oriented squad, in which case you charge instead. Falling back in the shooting phase, if taking 25%. If not, then falling back in the enemy's close combat phase, if possible. Then shooting or re-charging, on your following turn, depending on what works best.

 

How do you prevent the enemy from simply following you and preventing rally? Dreadnought, or a 2nd row of troops would work. What do people use? Also, does anybody manage to do this with Combat Squads?

 

Can you please describe the squence of events for the tactically challenged?

 

 

 

Thanks!

 

Warprat ;)

 

My army tends to work around a principle of holding ground, and "fighting to run away". The two don't sound like they fit, but allow me to explain:

 

I roll up towards an objective/good piece of terrain for a firing spot etc. with 2x Tactical Squads at 10-men each. I hop out, using the vehicles as cover. Next turn the squad advances onto (in this example /near) the objective, and lets rip with the Bolters and any Special Weapons that are in range.

 

Usually I get charged in the subsequent turn, whereupon the Tactical Squad deigns to flee backwards, assuming they lose (and without a Power Fist they tend to, but only by the odd casualty if it's other MEQ units).

 

I support my Tactical Squads with some sort of combat unit, either Command Squad or Dreadnoughts (who also help pop Transports, as it happens) - or even Terminators, however Deepstrike is very unreliable unless the objective is far enough from the enemy to stand a reasonable chance of them turning up in time.

 

The idea is that as the Tactical Squads flee, they either abandon the enemy sitting pretty, who then suffer another bout of Rapid Fire and a face full of close-combat unit; or they pursue the Tactical Squad, drawing them into a worse position and still getting charged anyway (and possibly shot at by even more units, LOS dependent - Devastators are actually great for this role). Vindicators can work really well here too, though there is a risk of hitting your own squad (counter-charge Guard style!).

 

The Tactical Squads then saunter up on the now-uncontested objective and dig in using the Heavy Weapon (usually a Multi-Melta) to deter fast vehicles, tank shock and so on.

 

This tactic is primarily used facing other MEQ units, particularly "generic" squads and Terminator units. Anything that is a very serious threat in CC (and not to say Terminators aren't, they just aren't so much when playing like this) such as Howling Banshees or Genestealers or Death Company gets charged by the supporting unit before they can get their (very deadly) mitts on the Tactical Marines, who they [the threat] most often make short work of. This usually results in the supporting unit dying, but it weakens the enemy combat threat to a level the Bolters can deal with.

 

Ensuring you have enough long-range firepower, short-range firepower, bodies, combat units and other support ("internal detachments" are pretty vital to this strategy) can make creating a "working" list entirely around this principle difficult (I'm still struggling - was easier in 3rd Edition with the Armageddon codex :D) but it should work in small-scale engagements in a "normal" list as it were.

 

Hitting one flank with a concentration of strong units, whilst the "center" is operating like this, can really force the enemy's game-plan to unravel, allowing you to break the back of the enemy force and still hold objectives at the same time (and this is where making everything fit into the points-limit gets darn tricky).

 

I quite like playing in this style as it is both offensive and reactionary at the same time, so it puts pressure on the opponent yet it doesn't allow you to get drawn into engagements you can't really win, and gives you tools to deal with most situations and threats - and creates incredibly bloody battles too!

 

But I will admit, I perhaps get more out of Combat Tactics than a "regular" gamer as I base a list around the potential use for the rule (the same as anyone building an army around Kantor will get more out of him than just chucking him into any old list).

[servitob]

Even if the enemy tries to stop you rallying, units that are falling back can still shoot (counts as moving). This is generally more useful than sitting there getting mullered in close combat, especially against the likes of orcs, wimpier tyranids and anything with power weapons.

[DarkGuard]

I just meant that if I used Vulkan then my upgrades and choices are more or less chosen for me, and so's my playstyle. Hammernators, flamer and melta to take advantage of his special rules, and so therefore my army will have to play up close to the enemy to get maximum use. It gets you into the idea of thinking that you paid points for the Chapter Tactics, and so therefore you must use them. When I play Pedro I feel that I need a big squad of Sternguard in the army. It doesn't actually restrict you, but in a way it does. If that makes sense...

That's a faulty perspective. There's no reason why a combipredator or a rifleman dreadnought wouldn't be just as effective in a Vulkan list as it would be in a Generic Captain list. You just get an impression that, because those multimeltas on attack bikes are TL-ed with Vulkan, you're somehow compelled to take them instead of other, just-as-effective, choices in the codex. You should snap out of it.

 

I'm not saying certain SCs don't encourage the use of certain units, but it isn't set in stone. The fact is, vanilla codex itself encourages the use of certain units simply because these certain units are superior or fill a necessary niche. Hence, you'll be using these units most of the time, regardless of what HQ you've got. The rest of the units, the not-so-effective ones, will mostly be used by beginners or players who are just fooling around, at which level it doesn't really matter what HQ they're running, anyway.

 

Perhaps you're right, but I still stand by the fact that for a Tactical Squad in a Rhino you're more likely to use a flamer or meltagun than a plasma gun if you're utilising Vulkan, because they will be more effective with that weapon. That said, things do even up without Vulkan. Of course, like you said a Rifleman doesn't become any less powerful when using Vulkan, and if you need long-ranged firepower it's one of the best places to go. However, there prevalence of melta/flamer weapons does encourage more direct warfare. Then again perhaps I should stop thinking that way :D.

[Giga]

Eh, let me make some changes to what you said there:

Perhaps you're right, but I still stand by the fact that for a Tactical Squad in a Rhino you're more likely to use a flamer or meltagun than a plasma gun, because they will be more effective with that weapon.

See, what I did there?

 

How many people do you see using plasmaguns on their vanilla tac squads nowadays? Not many, I'd wager. Flamers & meltaguns are considerably more useful in the current edition. Vulkan happens to make those even better. However, that doesn't change the fact that you're still gonna use those even if your list is led by a generic HQ.

 

Same could be said about many other units in the codex. TH/SS termies are an excellent example. Vulkan makes them better, but you still see them in most marine lists, Vulkan-led or not. Hence, lists led by generic HQs are in no way more variable then lists led by SCs. Just because some people choose to spam melta melta and only melta for anti-tank, just because they've taken Vulkan, doesn't mean their army wouldn't benefit from replacing some of those meltas with things like rifleman dreads and combipreds.

 

Likewise, just because a list is led by a generic captain with a command squad doesn't mean that list has any more variety then the exact same list that has lysander/khan/shrike/sicarius instead of the said captain. ;)

 

EDIT: To clarify; just because you've taken a certain SC does NOT mean you're suddenly straitjacketed into taking only the few choices in our codex that happen to be associated with the said SC. In fact, quite often, you'd be better off not taking them at all. Sometimes this is obvious (Lysander was OBVIOUSLY intended to be used with a unit of shooty terminators - too bad these termies aren't worth it even with his bolter drill to improve them). At other times (such as with Vulkan armies who get utterly owned because they have no long-range capability whatsoever, or with Khan armies who rely totally on outflanking units) it's a lot less obvious, but true, nevertheless.

[Sanctjud]

Combat Tactics, it's something to have in your back pocket.

It's not always ideal, and has risks involved with it.

 

But when the proper application turns up and you take it, it can do great things.

If used poorly, it means some 'dead' units.

 

All combat tactics adds is: Options. It will NOT always be good, but for some, having more tools to work with equates 'better'.

 

In some cases, there are more biased applications of combat tactics that works more often (but still risky) a la Biker lists/units.

I play a biker army, and what little it is worth, I do not combat tactics all the time, it only really comes up when my opponent forgets about it...which happens and you take advatedge of mistakes as normal.

 

It can be a game winner, but it's not something to bank on or spam all the time.

 

-Sanct.

[DarkGuard]

Eh, let me make some changes to what you said there:

Perhaps you're right, but I still stand by the fact that for a Tactical Squad in a Rhino you're more likely to use a flamer or meltagun than a plasma gun, because they will be more effective with that weapon.

See, what I did there?

 

How many people do you see using plasmaguns on their vanilla tac squads nowadays? Not many, I'd wager. Flamers & meltaguns are considerably more useful in the current edition. Vulkan happens to make those even better. However, that doesn't change the fact that you're still gonna use those even if your list is led by a generic HQ.

 

...

 

I'm not afraid to look at a different point of view. I do agree that now I look at it it is a false perception. Of course I have only recently stopped using plasma guns in Tactical Squads so that I have back up for my misfiring attack bikes :)

 

In the end as far as competitive play goes I agree that some of the Chapter Tactics (mainly Pedro and Vulkan) are too good to pass up. However, in friendly play either works, and Combat Tactics can be fun to play about with at times.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Ok, gotta chime in here -- all of my Tactical Squads have plasma guns in them. And cannons. And the sergeants carry plasma pistols. Because its fluffy and I like AP2.

[Ookami_81]

Ok, gotta chime in here -- all of my Tactical Squads have plasma guns in them. And cannons. And the sergeants carry plasma pistols. Because its fluffy and I like AP2.

 

It seems a rather specific combination, but if your metagame is mainly PA oriented it should prove deadly.

With all these plasma weapons in your squads, you better burn incense and offer skulls to the almighty dice god ! :lol:

[Giga]

Ok, gotta chime in here -- all of my Tactical Squads have plasma guns in them. And cannons. And the sergeants carry plasma pistols. Because its fluffy and I like AP2.

Plasma weapons are extremely rare and almost impossible to make. Having 3 of them per tactical squad is as fluffy as a slaaneshi sorcerer leading a unit of khorne berzerkers.

 

EDIT: Anyway, fluffy choices don't come into tactical discussions. I like to have my relic blade/arti armor/storm shield captain lead a 10 men vanguard unit with 3 stormshields, thammer and a powerfist, because I like the models and because fooling around with a unit like that is a nice change from assault terminators. I would not, however, encourage anyone to take something like that to a tournament. Not if they're interested in winning, anyway.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Ok, gotta chime in here -- all of my Tactical Squads have plasma guns in them. And cannons. And the sergeants carry plasma pistols. Because its fluffy and I like AP2.

Plasma weapons are extremely rare and almost impossible to make. Having 3 of them per tactical squad is as fluffy as a slaaneshi sorcerer leading a unit of khorne berzerkers.

 

 

Unless you're talking about the Iron Hands, who have a close relationship with the Mechanicum and therefore access to more of the Imperium's higher technology, ie, plasma weapons and conversion beamers. I field both. But this isn't a fluff discussion. :)

[chapter master 454]

Personally I think combat tactics should be a free move in the enemy turn if your unit hasn't moved in theirs. The rule is very situtional to the point of being useless (much like a character in LoL called veigar), it's existence is almost unknown or so passively built into us that it really has no use. If I nail 25% of one of your marines with my assault shooting then holy PJs worn by the emperor, what was your armour made of and what guns are my guys using because to us marines 25% is about 3-4 marines which is alot to lose in a squad.

 

In short: if it was a free move in the enemy turn that made you flee for one turn away from the nearest enemy unit(s) if you hadn't moved in your turn then it would be a great rule. As it stands: it's pathetic to the point a grot insta-kills it!

[Giga]

A free move would've been crazy.

 

A free move if you hadn't moved in your own movement phase would be pretty useless, TBH, and would only matter to things like devastators, sniper scouts, and objective-camping tacticals. Either way, it'd still be quite a weak special rule.

Unless you're talking about the Iron Hands, who have a close relationship with the Mechanicum and therefore access to more of the Imperium's higher technology, ie, plasma weapons and conversion beamers. I field both. But this isn't a fluff discussion. :D

Having 3 plasma weapons per squad is still not fluffy in 40k. Also, having more then one conversion beamer in a force is pretty much the antithesis of fluffy. These things are super-rare and many of them are impossible to make. 3 plasma weapons in a squad would've been unfluffy even in a 100% adeptus mechanicus army... Except maybe if the said unit was Honor Guard, or something superb like that, and even then it's a big maybe.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Well, Giga, you and I are just going to have to disagree on everything then. We're on opposite sides of the line on both plasma fluff and the utility of combat tactics, and arguing either point is not going to change anyone's mind.