combat tactics

[Gothical]

EDIT: Anyway, fluffy choices don't come into tactical discussions. I like to have my relic blade/arti armor/storm shield captain lead a 10 men vanguard unit with 3 stormshields, thammer and a powerfist, because I like the models and because fooling around with a unit like that is a nice change from assault terminators. I would not, however, encourage anyone to take something like that to a tournament. Not if they're interested in winning, anyway.

 

This is one thing that I always ponder on, and since you seem like a (regular/good) tournament player I thought I'd ask your opinion.

 

Surely taking a non-(or rather less-than) competitive choice can be a good thing to shake up the metagame and perhaps tournament play? Everyone complains that tournament lists tend to end up very "cookie-cutter", at least between multiple armies if not units.

 

If there is a unit that you think works well in the army, and it's something that doesn't usually crop up in "competitive" lists then can't it give you an advantage, seeing as it will be a unit your opponents don't regularly/aren't expecting to face?

 

Surely if it works within your army, and you are a good player, then the unit can be used just as effectively as something the internet/maths decides is "better", as you can work around the weaknesses of the unit and use it's strength to exploit weaknesses in the enemy strategy and units?

 

I don't know (the few tournaments I have been to have been either local ones, or ones I took a themed army to for fun), but it seems to me that a unit that is not fielded often, as long as it's fielded well, can wrong-foot opponents and create new dynamics in games where people are expecting to face certain units within the army archetype?

[mowglie]

If there is a unit that you think works well in the army, and it's something that doesn't usually crop up in "competitive" lists then can't it give you an advantage, seeing as it will be a unit your opponents don't regularly/aren't expecting to face?

 

"Typically", and bearing in mind that my experience is from card games more than from wargames, cookie-cutter lists exist for a reason, and that reason is that the list is good.

 

Strictly speaking, you're correct. It is advantageous to play something that your opponent is not expecting. Usually, however, your opponent is not expecting it because it is unpopular, and it is unpopular because it isn't as good as the popular stuff. Only in very very rare cases will you catch an opponent so far off his expected metagame that you can beat him with a janky list. It's even rarer to catch all of your opponents at a given competition off-guard.

 

So, relevantly, you've got a chance of beating spam lists by playing against their strengths. It of course depends on your metagame, but generally S7-8 is very very popular right now. Riflemen, Typhoons, Lootas, Oblits, Loganwing, 4xML+CML long fangs, stuff that can kill transports at long range. This stuff is popular in response to Mech being popular, and so there's a school of thought that if you play an army based on troops that are vulnerable to neither Autocannons, nor Missile Launchers (frag *or* krak!) then you have an advantage.

 

Doing that without actually just building a list that's just rubbish, though, is pretty hard.

 

That's not to say it's impossible though. A skilled player will always be able to beat an unskilled player even using a handicapped list (though this isn't a good strategy for a tournament!). The #1 best players tend to be one step ahead of the metagame. Additionally, the nature of 40k means the metagame moves much more slowly compared to similar games (particularly card games). At most tournaments you get points for non-game-related stuff (though that's obviously off-topic for a tactica forum). Last, but never least, there's always the dice.

[Giga]

Mowglie has given a perfect answer to Interrogator-Chaplain Adam's question. I have nothing to add. :P

[Gothical]

Ok thanks guys!

 

I was thinking more in terms of adding the odd unit that is seen as less-than-competitive compared to other Codex choices, rather than building a whole army around the principle - such as Giga's Vanguard unit.

 

Thank you for your insight none-the-less. Most informative.

[Giga]

The problem with these units is that they just aren't effective enough.

 

Take Vanguard squads as an example. They have their advantages, but on the whole they're too expensive and their special rule (which is supposed to make them awesome) is unavailable unless you spend even more points on getting them jumppacks and then getting a locator beacon to ensure they don't scatter into a mishap, and even then you can't rely on them actually getting that assault-out-of-deepstrike. If they're footslogging, on the other hand, they definitely need a land raider to have any chance of getting into assault.

 

On the whole, they aren't a truly viable choice because they do the same job assault terminators do (a powerful assault specialist), except they do it worse while costing more. Hence, dealing with them doesn't require your opponent to reconsider his tactics or to adapt to anything. He just kills them the same as he would kill assault terminators - by blowing up their transport and then taking them down by putting tons of wounds on them and making them roll saves. At the end of the day, you've achieved nothing except sent a boy to do a man's job.

 

Same can be said of many other unusual units. There's nothing or very little they do that can't be done better by other, more competitive choices in the same book. Compare a mawloc to a trygon, or a tankbusta to a loota, or a devastator squad to a squadron of typhoon speeders, or a generic captain to Vulkan, or a blood claw to a gray hunter, etc. The list goes on and on.

[ImperialReaper]

Giga, I don´t understand why you say: " but even then is risky because your own unit is likely to keep running in the following turns." we have shall they know fear so we will stop running in the following turn

Because if the enemy consolidates after you broke off from combat, and manages to remain within 6" of your unit(s), then you cannot regroup. ATSKNF doesn't get around that.

The way to get around this, as a side note, is to use a Chaplain.

 

Your unit retreats from combat, the enemy consolidates to within 6", then in your movement you move the Chaplain over to join the Squad - they automatically Rally at the start of their movement (but can't move, as the IC has already moved prior to joining the Squad), but they can then Assault or fire Heavy Weapons, thanks to ATSKNF!

 

 

Question on that:

I always thaught a Chaplain will make your units pass any rally or suppression tests they have to take.

But when there is a enemy unit within 6" of your fleeing unit your unit is not allow to TEST for rally. So IMO the Chaplain will make you pass the test, but since you are not allowed to test he wount help you in this situation.

 

Right or wrong?

[Giga]

The chaplain makes the unit FEARLESS.

 

When a unit is FEARLESS no test is needed to be made, hence they regroup automatically. The chaplain's fierce oratory and whathaveyou makes them stop running away and pushes them back into the fight. :(

[garreth]

IC can't join fleeing units.

[Giga]

IC can't join fleeing units.

Ah, indeed, just checked in my rulebook and this is correct.

 

Well, that takes care of that. ;)

[Koremu]

IC can't join fleeing units.

Ah, indeed, just checked in my rulebook and this is correct.

 

Well, that takes care of that. ^_^

Yeah, it sucks, I really liked the concept of the Chaplain leaping in to rally his Brothers ;)

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

Well, Giga, you and I are just going to have to disagree on everything then. We're on opposite sides of the line on both plasma fluff and the utility of combat tactics, and arguing either point is not going to change anyone's mind.

 

x4 plasma gun command squad, hah!

 

Im also interested in how to effectively use combat tactics. I think I have a decent understanding now; you use it to fail shooting morale test and deny a charge?

 

 

also its correct that combat tactics is useless in close combat unless facing something like orks or necrons with low initiative? or terminators

[DarkGuard]

Im also interested in how to effectively use combat tactics. I think I have a decent understanding now; you use it to fail shooting morale test and deny a charge?

 

 

also its correct that combat tactics is useless in close combat unless facing something like orks or necrons with low initiative? or terminators

 

One of the ideas is to use it for that. Did so against a Blood Angels Assault Squad and he couldn't charge my Sternguard Squad. My plan to regroup was scuppered when a Death Company got into assault with my Rhino and stayed within 6" of them.

 

Basically it's an ok rule. In combat use it against anything you can if you have to. If you want to get out of combat you either get out, or you get caught and butchered by No Retreat! wounds. Then you can shoot that unit for daring to assault you ;).