All-Round Defence

[Koremu]

So, I'm going to be playing an All-Round Defence Scenario (with myself as the Defender, obviously) against a Tyranid army. We've agreed to pick armies specifically for the mission - so I can be expecting to face a reasonably optimised 'nid attack force, and can field a similarly optimised defence force.

 

I'm thinking of using a core of units I rarely get to field - my Sniper Scouts, Devastators and Thunderfire Cannon - and relying heavily on Infantry as maneuverability isn't an issue in this scenario (for those without the BM book, there is one objective, in the middle of the table, which the Marines must deploy everything except FA choices and Deep Strikers within 12" of).

 

I'm mostly looking at maximising my on-table presence from turn 1, and relying on the enforced Reserve status of the enemy HQ and HS choices.

 

On the downside, I am almost certain that there will be a Trygon or Trygon Prime amongst the Horde.

 

I'm unsure what HQ to use. Librarian is tempting, in order to stop enemy Zoanthropes, but his own powers will be essentially nullified by SitW. A Captain with Plasma Command Squad is an option, but is also pricey...

 

 

Thoughts?

[Brother Xeones]

What point level are we talking here?

 

If you don't mind going with a named character, you might consider Lysander. Another 'Bolster Defenses' besides the one you get from the T-fire would be nice to have against shooting since you'll be packed in there around that objective. He's also got bolter drill (which should be useful for something in your list) and since he wears terminator armor, you could deep-strike him if you want. I think having him around could be pretty handy against the big bugs. You could also bring that plasma command squad you mentioned. You'd lose combat tactics though, which might be a big deal for getting out of combat

 

Most of the other named characters would probably not help you as much. Pedro could give you the +1 attack aura which might be nice (and Crimson Fists are aways making "last stands" it seams), but I can't say I'd recommend anyone else.

 

As you say, a librarian would be nice to shut down Zoanthropes, but I wouldn't count on him doing much else the rest of the game. If I didn't go with Lysander or a librarian, I'd probably just go with a generic captain with the usual trimmings ––RB, SS, arty armor, etc.

[minigun762]

My first instinct for hq is two chaplains attached to assault squads. Use them in the classic counter assault fashion to engage incoming threats. As for the rest of the army bring lots of shooty units that can also take a charge.

[Hackbar]

Lysander and Pedro both sound great. If the game allows enough points, maybe even both of them.

 

Pedro's +1A bubble will stack nicely with your small deployment zone and the benefits (fearless and counter-attack, I think?) for being near the objective, and the Orbital Bombardment could go a long way towards keeping the swarm off your back for an extra turn.

 

Lysander is a rock-solid brawler for when those monstrous creatures get too close for comfort, lets you bolster a ruin, and can confer his bolter drill on a Sternguard squad for fantastic results in the first shooting phase or 2, which you will need to maximize anyway.

 

Scoring sternguard with +1A and re-rolls to hit (Pedro's super storm bolter, too!) and Lysander around (also with +1A) to discourage enemy melee is a potentially very powerful unit if you have the spare points. Kind of a glass cannon, but bolster defenses for a 3+ cover save will help with that.

 

One other thing to consider is a stripped-down Chapter Master. Orbital Bombardment on turn 1 or 2 to buy you some breathing room, and your choice of armaments for the ensuing fight. If you're strapped for points, CM with PW and BP keeps you under 150 and can still do some damage in CC after his bombardment is spent.

 

I know this is horribly expensive, but I would consider a command squad with 4xflamer+4xplasma. It's expensive and honestly I've never tested it, but in theory it gives you a powerful weapon to deal with anything the bugs can throw at you.

[Koremu]

What point level are we talking here?

1500

If you don't mind going with a named character, you might consider Lysander.

I don't generally use SCs that drop me Combat Tactics.

Another 'Bolster Defenses' besides the one you get from the T-fire would be nice to have against shooting since you'll be packed in there around that objective.

I'm not especially bothered for too much in the way of Bolster Defences, because the objective point is pre-agreed to be an Imperial Bastion, and hence is Fortifications already.

As you say, a librarian would be nice to shut down Zoanthropes, but I wouldn't count on him doing much else the rest of the game. If I didn't go with Lysander or a librarian, I'd probably just go with a generic captain with the usual trimmings ––RB, SS, arty armor, etc.

I don't think I'll be facing more than 3 Zoanthropes anyway, and with a 3+ Cover Save and (for once) NOT taking an entirely mechanised force, I'm not that bothered really...

 

I am very tempted to field an entirely Infantry force just to mess with the 'nid guys head. Take STR10 Lance Weapons will you? I give you nothing to shoot at...

 

My first instinct for hq is two chaplains attached to assault squads. Use them in the classic counter assault fashion to engage incoming threats. As for the rest of the army bring lots of shooty units that can also take a charge.

 

Slight difficulty in that I only have 1 painted Charlie, and only 1 Jump Assault Squad.

 

I know this is horribly expensive, but I would consider a command squad with 4xflamer+4xplasma. It's expensive and honestly I've never tested it, but in theory it gives you a powerful weapon to deal with anything the bugs can throw at you.

Sounds a bit Overkill to me, when I can get a number of fairly cheap ways of getting Flamers onto the battlefield.

 

 

 

Thus far I'm thinking something along these lines;

 

Captain (~160+ points)

Command Squad, 3 Plasma Guns, Fist (185 points)

Tactical Squad, Flamer, Power Sword, Missile Launcher (185 points) - upgrade to fist? combi-plasma?

Scout Squad, Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher, Camo Cloaks (100 points) - maybe take a counts-as-Telion?

Devastator Squad, +5 Marines, 4 Missile Launchers, Power Sword (245 points)

Thunderfire Cannon (standard)

Sternguard Squad, +5 Veterans, Fist (275 points)

 

Which leaves me about 200. I'm strongly tempted by a 5 man Terminator Squad with either an Assault Cannon or a Heavy Flamer.

 

The bit I'm not sold on (still) is the HQ. Quite tempted to drop them and take Cassius - between the Sternguard and the Devastators, do I really need 3 Plasma Guns?

[Hellios]

Are you also really against vehicles? if not a vindicator with just its cannon poppping out could be worth while or an Ironclad hiding until things get close and then toasting gribblies and tying up what is left.... I'm assuming you've put as much fire power as you can into the big things ;)... Hammernators as much as I normally don't suggest them could be useful if you think something big is going to make it to you with a large number of wounds... (maybe you fail to wound a Trygon with shooting when it pops up next to you) as the 3++ will keep you alive... and with high I some of them have or the lash whips others take you might be going last anyway.

 

and I may have gotten this wrong but if your dev squad is 230pts and you have enough elite slots you could take 2 5 man squads of sternguard both with two missile launchers for 135pst each (270).... for 40pts you get +1 attack on 9 guys +1ld even if the sgt bites it and special ammunition which is great because if you use krak missiles to take down big bugs you can use hellfire rounds to help (or kraken bolts if they are over 24 away) and if you frag little bugs kraken bolts give you a longer range and a better AP (although it only helps for a few units) and dragonfire rounds will help you get bugs out of cover ;).

[minigun762]

I am not sold on the plasma command squad. Too expensive to use as a shooting unit where the captain is just standing around. Maybe use cassius and some sternguard for hellfire goodness

[Leonaides]

Drop the command squad, get an additional 10-man tac squad with free weaponry, gives you a few extra points.

Drop the missile launcher on the scouts - 5 snipers is probably better/just as effective at going for MCs

 

Definately need a good coutner-assault squad in there (or at least one thats able to give anything a good kicking). Whether you choose to go for hammer termie squad, or even a regualr squad (that can still kick out a lot of shots before combat and ought to be able to take a last couple of wounds off any MC's that you've hopefully shot up first is up to you.

[Koremu]

Are you also really against vehicles? if not a vindicator with just its cannon poppping out could be worth while or an Ironclad hiding until things get close and then toasting gribblies and tying up what is left.... I'm assuming you've put as much fire power as you can into the big things ;)... Hammernators as much as I normally don't suggest them could be useful if you think something big is going to make it to you with a large number of wounds... (maybe you fail to wound a Trygon with shooting when it pops up next to you) as the 3++ will keep you alive... and with high I some of them have or the lash whips others take you might be going last anyway.

I'm far from being anti-vehicle, but because I normally run a completely Mechanised force, I'm quite attracted to running a gunline for this specific scenario. The vehicles just aren't of as much value when the position is a static defensive one, not least because in this scenario the enemy have only 24" to cover from table edge to the Objective.

 

On which subject, the more I think about this the more I believe using Tactical Squads as buffer units to prevent the flood from the near table edges overwhelming my centre is the way forward.

 

and I may have gotten this wrong but if your dev squad is 230pts and you have enough elite slots you could take 2 5 man squads of sternguard both with two missile launchers for 135pst each (270).... for 40pts you get +1 attack on 9 guys +1ld even if the sgt bites it and special ammunition which is great because if you use krak missiles to take down big bugs you can use hellfire rounds to help (or kraken bolts if they are over 24 away) and if you frag little bugs kraken bolts give you a longer range and a better AP (although it only helps for a few units) and dragonfire rounds will help you get bugs out of cover :(.

 

You are entirely correct, but for one thing: I have a limited number of Sternguard models, and I think that they will be better deployed as a walking response force than on top of the Bastion where they will only get 1 shot per turn rather than Rapid Firing.

 

I am not sold on the plasma command squad. Too expensive to use as a shooting unit where the captain is just standing around. Maybe use cassius and some sternguard for hellfire goodness

Yeah, I'm not either... I'm actually tempted to take Sicarius, for his ability to reroll the dice for 1st turn and giving Counter Attack to a Tactical Squad, which would make an entertaining mess of a Gaunt Brood. I may not take a Command Squad at all, just put him with a Tactical Squad (he's got a straight 33% chance of killing an MC in CC)

 

Sicarius (standard)

Tactical Squad, +5, Flamer, Power Fist, Combi-Flamer, Missile Launcher (205)

Tactical Squad, +5, Plasma Gun, Plasma Pistol, Missile Launcher (195)

Devastator Squad, +5, 4 Missile Launchers (230)

Thunderfire Cannon (standard)

Sternguard Squad, +5, Fist (275)

Scout Squad, Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher, Camo Cloaks (100)

 

Sadly that then leaves me about 40 points short of being able to field a full Assault Squad with Flamers

 

 

EDIT due to x-posting;

 

Drop the command squad, get an additional 10-man tac squad with free weaponry, gives you a few extra points.

Drop the missile launcher on the scouts - 5 snipers is probably better/just as effective at going for MCs

 

Definately need a good coutner-assault squad in there (or at least one thats able to give anything a good kicking). Whether you choose to go for hammer termie squad, or even a regualr squad (that can still kick out a lot of shots before combat and ought to be able to take a last couple of wounds off any MC's that you've hopefully shot up first is up to you.

Yeah, that's where my thoughts are heading too. I actually only have 9 painted Sternguard, so I might drop that 1 guy and the Scouts Missile Launcher and the Combi-Flamer to take the Assault Squad with Fist and 2 Flamers.

 

I'd also put Sicarius in that unit in order to exploit his high Sv and multiple wounds to keep the Sternies alive.

[minigun762]

Just trim the fat like the plasma pistol and combi weapon. Cloaks might be wasted depending on the board so that is more points saved. What about a dread?

[Koremu]

Just trim the fat like the plasma pistol and combi weapon. Cloaks might be wasted depending on the board so that is more points saved. What about a dread?

I'm actually a fan of that Plasma Pistol, and that Sergeant has a history of taking down Carnifex.

 

The Cloaks are there for the 2+ Cover Save. I'm not entirely sold on the Scouts though, I don't field them often but I think their Infiltrate ability will be useful here.

 

I don't see the point in a lone Dread, as mentioned above. There's nowhere on the board that it won't be Lance fodder the moment the Zoanthropes arrive from Reserve.

[Leonaides]

Is a 2+ cover save much use when you're against Nids - who are much more likely to simply charge you in CC? More bodies is really the way to go there.

[minigun762]

I'm not aware of the special rules for the mission but my thought was to pod in a dread with a heavy flamer and a assault cannon probably for a support distraction unit

[Trozen]

Okay, I actually have experience with this exact scenario, but in a 1200pt tourney.

 

I will warn you about potential first turn charges. He can deploy 6-18" from your entire non-fast attack force. Since you will be so close, I would not bring the thunderfire or any devastators.

 

In my game, I had a mechanized force and lost 1/3 of my army from his genestealers before I could react. The transports did make nice craters for me. Oh also, use every bit of terrain you can.

 

My Pedro 'count as' proved his worth. The aura covers your entire deployment zone and the bombardment came in real handy.

 

Don't forget it is a scoring mission so every scoring unit you can include helps. All it takes is one survivor to win the game. (in my case 2 sternguard)

[Koremu]

Is a 2+ cover save much use when you're against Nids - who are much more likely to simply charge you in CC? More bodies is really the way to go there.

A good point, true, but the other reason for the Scouts is that they can deploy outside the regular deployment zone - the 'nid player will have to choose between charging them (thereby diverting units from the Objective), or trying to take them down via his rather pitiful shooting.

 

I will warn you about potential first turn charges. He can deploy 6-18" from your entire non-fast attack force. Since you will be so close, I would not bring the thunderfire or any devastators.

As I've mentioned above, the Objective is pre-agreed to be on top of an Imperial Bastion. And I was planning on deploying the Assault Squad to discourage first turn charge silliness via the counter-charge route. The Devastators and Thunderfire should be ok up on the roof. We tend to play on boards featuring a LOT of multi-level terrain, so raw flat straight-line distance is deceptive (a side note: build yourselves more vertical terrain guys. Worth its weight in gold).

[Trozen]

Ah, sorry I missed that the objective was a bastion. The cannon and devastators would do well on top. Strength 8 is key vs nids, so I would bring missiles. I would still suggest having Pedro and you may want a typhoon speeder to provide some harassment behind the lines. I don't know how you feel about them, but I think a dreadnought would do well since mobility is not an issue. I haven't had as much experience with dreadnoughts vs nids, but I could see assault cannon + heavy flamer being useful.

 

Your problem with bringing any vehicles is going to be protecting your rear armor.

[Brother Xeones]

I haven't had as much experience with dreadnoughts vs nids, but I could see assault cannon + heavy flamer being useful.

 

It would work fine against the little guys to shoot a few and then tarpit, but against anything with rending (stealers) or 2D6 armor pen. in combat (all MCs) you're probably not going to make much of a dent I don't think I'd do it personally.

[minigun762]

You could try going land raider heavy.to ignore the rear armor issue

[Koremu]

You could try going land raider heavy.to ignore the rear armor issue

What part of "Strength 10 Lance" makes this seem wise?

[awfulawful]

The Devastators and Thunderfire should be ok up on the roof. We tend to play on boards featuring a LOT of multi-level terrain, so raw flat straight-line distance is deceptive (a side note: build yourselves more vertical terrain guys. Worth its weight in gold).

 

Being on the roof of a building counts as occupying the building. A TF Cannon cannot occupy a building, especially if the Dev Squad is already in there.

[minigun762]

You could try going land raider heavy.to ignore the rear armor issue

What part of "Strength 10 Lance" makes this seem wise?

Short range plus two librarians for support. Deploy with vehicles or the bastion in front to get a cover save

[Koremu]

You could try going land raider heavy.to ignore the rear armor issue

What part of "Strength 10 Lance" makes this seem wise?

Short range plus two librarians for support. Deploy with vehicles or the bastion in front to get a cover save

I'll say this explicitly; In the ARD mission the Marines have to deploy in the middle of the table, and the 'nids can deploy 18" away from the centre point, and can come on from any side.

 

NOTHING is short ranged for the 'nids in ARD.

 

So far as I can see it, my mission is to contain and control the initial rush, kill what I can, and then weather the eventual arrival of the Trygon and Zoanthropes from reserve.

 

This is more or less why I'm adopting an outright gunline approach, far from my usual mech approach.

 

On the plus side, if I do use a Librarian, I only need one - the deployment zone is a tight area, there's no need for 2 hoods.

[minigun762]

That makes more sense. I'll adjust my advice then. It now sounds like the priority is to build two lines of defense. First line assaults or counter assaults and second line provides firepower. Combat squads with the sarge in the first line squad and heavy weapon on the second. What about cc scouts? Cheaper and more attacks. Keep a th/as terminator squad back to pounce on trygons or tyrants. Have you considered speeders?

[Trozen]

I like the idea of having some Typhoon speeders. They are either going to consistently put wounds anything the Nids can field, or cause your opponent to apply some force away from the objective.

[Ookami_81]

It seems to me that the deployment of this mission will cause a rapid and painful death for typhoons, otherwise excellent anti-tyranids weapon system, hampering them with not enough room to shoot from afar.

Or you may have the choice to DS them in a far away corner of the table, and you don't have their firepower in the very important first couple of turns.