Jetbikes/Koptas assaulting into a ruin...

[ShinyRhino]

Ok folks, help me wrap my head around this one.

 

Let's say I have a unit of Marines (quad-plasma Command Squad, if it matters) set up in a multi-level ruin. I have no Marines in the bottom floor, two on the second floor, and three on the top floor.

A unit of Deffkoptas desires to assault my Marines, and so charges their 6" into the ruin. How exactly does this move work? Each model must roll a Dangerous Terrain test because they moved into (or through) difficult terrain, yes? Where is their assault move measured from, the bottom floor, or anywhere in the ruin? This is important, because a ruin adds 2" to the charge, and depending on how far the Koptas moved before entering the ruin, they may not make it if they have to move upward to higher levels.

Are ruin levels counted for the purposes of moving the first model to base contact (closest model to closest model is the rule)? For example, if I have a Marine on the third floor who's 3" away from a Kopta as the crow flies, and another that's 4" away on the sceond floor, which must be based first? If you add level height to measurement, Third Floor Marine is 7" away, and Second Floor Marine is 6" away.

How about exterior walls of a ruin? Let's say i have my Marines in the Sactum Imperialis-style ruin. They're standing on ledges shooting out the windows to the north, with the windows/walls providing them cover. Can the Koptas simply charge up to the windows and assault, or must they get over the building and charge from the non-wall side? They certainly can't fit through the windows! This would invoke two dangerous tests, right? One for moving into the back of the ruin in the Movement Phase, and then another for charging within the ruin?

 

Thanks for any insight or page numbers you can point me at.

[bystrom]

pg 82 in the BBB?

 

I would say they can charge through walls (they bash right through/shoot their way through) and they don't have to come into Base contact if they can't be placed (so you can't say they can't charge by hiding in the ruin). Moving up or down a level is 3" regardless how much it actually is. They start off at the bottom (first) floor if they're not already in the ruin and on another floor.

 

So charging models on the third floor requires chargers to stand right under, on the first floor or higher, charging second floor models requires three inches and first floor, etc.

[Seahawk]

First up, most of what you need to know is on page 83, under Jump Infantry and Jetbikes.

 

Each model must roll a Dangerous Terrain test because they moved into (or through) difficult terrain, yes?

Yes.

 

Where is their assault move measured from, the bottom floor, or anywhere in the ruin?

From the model itself, on an angle, as shown in the BRB example of jetbike movement in ruins and written under the previously mentioned heading. Bystrom is wrong in this case.

 

For example, if I have a Marine on the third floor who's 3" away from a Kopta as the crow flies, and another that's 4" away on the sceond floor, which must be based first? If you add level height to measurement, Third Floor Marine is 7" away, and Second Floor Marine is 6" away.

A strange, almost impossible case. Regardless, again you measure on the angle, going first toward whichever is closest.

 

How about exterior walls of a ruin? Let's say i have my Marines in the Sactum Imperialis-style ruin. They're standing on ledges shooting out the windows to the north, with the windows/walls providing them cover. Can the Koptas simply charge up to the windows and assault, or must they get over the building and charge from the non-wall side? They certainly can't fit through the windows! This would invoke two dangerous tests, right? One for moving into the back of the ruin in the Movement Phase, and then another for charging within the ruin?

As said, all models can simply bust through the walls, Casino Royale style, although this is to be discussed between you and your opponent before the game. You could agree that you have to go around, or that they go through. If you chose the former, then yes, during the movement phase they'd take a Dangerous, and during the assault phase they'd take another Dangerous.

 

However it could all be moot, as written on the top of page 83, "...may move on the upper levels of a ruin - and only if the model can physically be placed there." So, you could only assault so long as your models fit.

[stinkenheim]

on a side note, you only ever take one dangerous terraint est per phase regardless of how many different pieces of terrain were moved through.

[ShinyRhino]

Thanks all. I'll reread those passages.

 

Seems interesting with regards to the "model can be phycially be placed there" part. The ruins we typically use at our local shop tend to only have partial upper floors that are only about 30mm wide, and maybe 2-3" of space per level. I can't see a Deffkopta being placed on many of those floors, due to the flight stands and large model size.

[Leonaides]

You may be wrong there about dangerous terrain tests - if JP troops have to make a test if the start or end their move in DT, then by that rule it would be perfectly possible for a unit to start its turn in terrain, have to take a DT test, move into another piece of terrain and end its move there, then have to take another DT test.

 

And at the beginning of its next turn have to take another DT test. But thats only if the commander decides its worth risking all those casualties moving into/through cover repeatedly - I know I dont like moving JP troops into cover...

[Seahawk]

start or end their move in DT, then by that rule it would be perfectly possible for a unit to start its turn in terrain, have to take a DT test, move into another piece of terrain and end its move there, then have to take another DT test.

It doesn't matter if you leave and enter:

 

"Roll a D6 for every model that has entered, left or moved through one or more areas of dangerous terrain during its move."

 

Jump troops are no different. You only test once per move, no matter how many pieces you leave or enter. The only times you would take two dangerous terrains tests in a single phase is if you take enough casualties by moving or running through it. You'd test when you moved/ran, then again when you fled. In the assault phase, you could take one by assaulting into it and then fleeing out of it. However, you'd never take two for jumping out of and then back into terrain in a single move. It's also mentioned in the BRB FAQ that disembarking into Dangerous and then moving only forces one check.

[SeattleDV8]

In the assault phase, you could take one by assaulting into it and then fleeing out of it. However, you'd never take two for jumping out of and then back into terrain in a single move.

Note pg. 52 Jump Infantry do not use their jump packs to assault, they are always treated as 'normal infantry".

That said Grey Mage and Seahawk are correct.

[Seahawk]

I know DV8, I'm just giving examples for those that would be going into Dangerous Terrain during the assault phase. Heck, you could be assaulting into Dangerous Terrain, regardless whether you're on foot or jumping. Wrecks spring to mind!

[Grimtooth]

Can bikes/jetbikes even assault onto a 2nd or 3rd floor of terrain in the first place? For example cavalry and beasts can't even get up there since they are not on the explicit list of unit types allowed.

[ShinyRhino]

Can bikes/jetbikes even assault onto a 2nd or 3rd floor of terrain in the first place? For example cavalry and beasts can't even get up there since they are not on the explicit list of unit types allowed.

 

Bikes, no. Jetbikes, yes.

[SeattleDV8]

However it could all be moot, as written on the top of page 83, "...may move on the upper levels of a ruin - and only if the model can physically be placed there." So, you could only assault so long as your models fit.

Small quibble with this.....BRB pg.85 Ruins and Assaults tells us as long as a unit can reach the BtB posistion (difficult terrain roll, etc. ) you don't have to place the models BtB but "...to place the models as close to their foe as is safely possible."

Sort of a wobbly model syndrome part 2.

[ShinyRhino]

However it could all be moot, as written on the top of page 83, "...may move on the upper levels of a ruin - and only if the model can physically be placed there." So, you could only assault so long as your models fit.

Small quibble with this.....BRB pg.85 Ruins and Assaults tells us as long as a unit can reach the BtB posistion (difficult terrain roll, etc. ) you don't have to place the models BtB but "...to place the models as close to their foe as is safely possible."

Sort of a wobbly model syndrome part 2.

 

I think the first part refers to actual space available. If I have 4 marines on a ledge, and there's no room to place a model in B2B with them, you can't assault them. If there's room to theoretically place the assaulting model in B@B, but doing so would topple the models or the terrain, you can use the "as close as safely possible" rule.

 

This brings up another interesting question, that of flight stands. I know Koptas on a flight stand are tall. If they're more than 2" tall, and don't have removable flight stands, can they ever be placed on the inner levels of a ruin if it's only 2" high in there?

Also, regarding room for B2B...Koptas use 40mm flight stand bases. Does that mean they have to have 40mm of clear space to place the bases on? If there's only room for a 25mm base on the ledge to get to B2B with my Marines, 15mm or so of base is not on anything. Is it a legal assault, or no?

[SeattleDV8]

. If I have 4 marines on a ledge, and there's no room to place a model in B2B with them, you can't assault them. If there's room to theoretically place the assaulting model in B@B, but doing so would topple the models or the terrain, you can use the "as close as safely possible" rule.

 

Not so,BRB pg.85 "...or the space could be very limited on a particular level, making it impossible to move assaulting models into BtB contact..."

As long as you had enough movement to reach BtB you can place the assaulting models "as close as safely possible" and still count as BtB.