Sanguinius, Most Popular?

[pingo]

I wonder what plagued such a seemingly perfect being like SAnguinius?

 

Wasn't he plagued somewhat by his premonitions of future events? Or am I thinking of someone else?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I wonder what plagued such a seemingly perfect being like SAnguinius?

 

Wasn't he plagued somewhat by his premonitions of future events? Or am I thinking of someone else?

 

I thought that ws Cruze, who saw the Empeor and knew death was coming behind him.

His visions would continue to make problems, eventually erupting in him whipping 9 out of 10 flavors out of Dorn and going on the run.

 

 

WLK

[Marshal Wilhelm]

But what troubles me about him (and this isnt a crack at him, i like him), is that he was publicly too perfect. those who are seen without large flaws (as i believe Sangy has been so far) must have SOME problems, maybe buried deep in themselves. I wonder what plagued such a seemingly perfect being like Sanguinius?

 

On flaws:

Well we all know the traitors turned stinky, so let's look at the goodies.

 

Sang - ? To handsome?!

Dorn - Has a melt down, goes into kill mode, smashes many baddies, doesn't satisfy Imperial Warmaster role as tHLoT see it, goes crazier to fight Perturabo, gets smacked down and rescued, goes into rehab for 15 years *extra sad face*

Russ - *cough* well, he speaks for himself, but we'll wait for Prospero Burns before casting [more] rocks at our favourite Loyalist angry man ^_^

The Lion - doesn't get people, stooged by Turbs, ferments dissension amongst the Calibanites

Corax - creates Weregeld, but otherwise good....

The Khan - ??

Vulkan - ??

Ferrus Manus - Impetuous, led Corax and Vulkan to Istvaan 5 :P

Guilliman - speaking from the internet's perspective: besides being seemingly an annoying twerp, until we get more fluff on the matter, we only really have our opinions of him. That he has rubbed up the back of the majority of Marine players makes me think that he is annoying and yet that is just our sense of it. Legatus puts forward a good defence of him and shows that it is our dislike of him, rather than fluff based facts, that makes us think of him as a jerk.

Is that because we don't like people who are our peers taking something over? We believe him to be self-important, self-promoted and a pretender to the role of Imperial Steward?

Who is he to punish to righteous for the sins of the wicked? Where in the fluff is he promoted and Dorn deposed, etc.

 

But besides a perhaps unfair view of Guilliman, what faults does he have?

[Wrath of Terra]

But what troubles me about him (and this isnt a crack at him, i like him), is that he was publicly too perfect. those who are seen without large flaws (as i believe Sangy has been so far) must have SOME problems, maybe buried deep in themselves. I wonder what plagued such a seemingly perfect being like Sanguinius?

 

 

 

But besides a perhaps unfair view of Guilliman, what faults does he have?

 

For me, and I'd say a lot of others, it was Robbie threatening war with the other primarchs if they didn't follow his little bookie wookie after the Horus Heresy. Humanity went through the biggest and most traumatic war in the species history, the Emperor was (largely) taken from them, the majority of the primarchs turned traitor, dead or missing and then this jumped up clown who sat out the war threatens a new civil war if he doesn't get his way with his stupid book. The arrogance of it is mind-bogglingly offensive.

 

And that doesn't even factor in the attitude many Ultras players have that mirrors R.G.'s and results in a lot of bad feeling coming from players of far superior chapters towards all things Ultramarine.

[calgar101]

Guilliman never ever threatened war because they refused to adhere to the Codex, it was an Imperial Navy ship who fired at Dorns fleet, a ship which was not under the control of Guilliman. If Roboute had wanted the Imperium for his own he could have, he had the legion and resources to have done it. But not, he held the Imperium together...

 

Back on topic, Sanguinius must have had issues but ones he kept to himself. I also think he had a pyschic connection of sorts to each of his marines(perhaps all Primarchs did but his was the most strongest) and he did have the gift of foresight as he foresaw his duel with the Arch-Traitor Horus and ultimately his own death.

[Legatus]

For me, and I'd say a lot of others, it was Robbie threatening war with the other primarchs if they didn't follow his little bookie wookie after the Horus Heresy. Humanity went through the biggest and most traumatic war in the species history, the Emperor was (largely) taken from them, the majority of the primarchs turned traitor, dead or missing and then this jumped up clown who sat out the war threatens a new civil war if he doesn't get his way with his stupid book. The arrogance of it is mind-bogglingly offensive.

Or, maybe it was the High Lords of Terra that ordered the restructuring of all Imperial Forces, which did not only affect the former Imperial Army and Fleet, but also the Legionnes Astartes. They were restructured into the independently operation Imperial Guard, Imperial Navy and the Adeptus Astartes (not to mention other branches such as the Adeptus Titanicus, Adeptus Mechanicus, etc.). Of course, Guilliman, as a member of the High Lords and most suited for such a task, had been the one mainly put in charge of the restructuring, but to then say that this was all done on his authority alone and was purely his personal will cannot really be supported by fluff. Indeed, there are several passages that mentions the involvement of other Primarchs or high ranking personell (BFG sources mention Corax giving his opinion when it had been discussed what fleet assets a Space Marines Chapter should be permitted to have). Guilliman was the one mainly responsible for this undertaking, so he was the one who had to make sure everyone would comply.

[Captain Idaho]

The arrogance of it is mind-bogglingly offensive.

 

And that doesn't even factor in the attitude many Ultras players have that mirrors R.G.'s and results in a lot of bad feeling coming from players of far superior chapters towards all things Ultramarine.

 

The ignorant attitudes of posts like this is mind-boggingly offensive. :woot:

[Wrath of Terra]

The arrogance of it is mind-bogglingly offensive.

 

And that doesn't even factor in the attitude many Ultras players have that mirrors R.G.'s and results in a lot of bad feeling coming from players of far superior chapters towards all things Ultramarine.

 

The ignorant attitudes of posts like this is mind-boggingly offensive. :D

 

 

From my own personal experience Ultras players have been the most unbearable. If you've met some who aren't, well done. Wish I had your luck.

[pingo]

The attitude of Ultramarine players, regardless of what that may be, is totally irrelevent to this debate.

 

Let's not derail this: I can see where it will head if we don't alter course.

[Wrath of Terra]

The attitude of Ultramarine players, regardless of what that may be, is totally irrelevent to this debate.

 

Let's not derail this: I can see where it will head if we don't alter course.

 

 

Agreed. Humble apologies. Reigning Ultra-hate down 80% to optimal running levels.

 

To get it back on track; I wonder was Sang aware of the image most, nay almost all had of him and if so did he feel pressure to live up to the image of perfection? And if he did that pressure cause him to act in ways and make decisions he'd rather not have, all to keep up the image? Horus did say he had the Emperor's soul and the Emperor was certainly one hell of a politician and would have been well aware of the benefits maintaining your public persona.

[Khairon]

SANGUINIUS' PROBLEM WAS THAT HE HAD TWO GIANT -ity ^_^ :cuss :cuss ING WINGS SPROUTING FROM HIS BACK!!!

 

did this make him angelic, yes. WAS HE STILL A MUTANT, MORESO THAN ANY OTHER PRIMARCH? :cuss YES!

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

SANGUINIUS' PROBLEM WAS THAT HE HAD TWO GIANT -ity ^_^ :cuss :cuss ING WINGS SPROUTING FROM HIS BACK!!!

 

did this make him angelic, yes. WAS HE STILL A MUTANT, MORESO THAN ANY OTHER PRIMARCH? :cuss YES!

 

Unlike the primarch who grew fangs, or became more pale skinned and darker hair with age, or was a bronze/reddish giant with one eye? REALLY?

 

WLK

[Marshal Wilhelm]

On flaws:

Well we all know the traitors turned stinky, so let's look at the goodies.

 

Sang - ? To handsome?!

Dorn - Has a melt down, goes into kill mode, smashes many baddies, doesn't satisfy Imperial Warmaster role as tHLoT see it, goes crazier to fight Perturabo, gets smacked down and rescued, goes into rehab for 15 years *extra sad face*

Russ - *cough* well, he speaks for himself, but we'll wait for Prospero Burns before casting [more] rocks at our favourite Loyalist angry man :P

The Lion - doesn't get people, stooged by Turbs, ferments dissension amongst the Calibanites

Corax - creates Weregeld, but otherwise good....

The Khan - ??

Vulkan - ??

Ferrus Manus - Impetuous, led Corax and Vulkan to Istvaan 5 :rolleyes:

Guilliman - speaking from the internet's perspective: besides being seemingly an annoying twerp, until we get more fluff on the matter, we only really have our opinions of him. That he has rubbed up the back of the majority of Marine players makes me think that he is annoying and yet that is just our sense of it. Legatus puts forward a good defence of him and shows that it is our dislike of him, rather than fluff based facts, that makes us think of him as a jerk.

Is that because we don't like people who are our peers taking something over? We believe him to be self-important, self-promoted and a pretender to the role of Imperial Steward?

Who is he to punish to righteous for the sins of the wicked? Where in the fluff is he promoted and Dorn deposed, etc.

 

But besides a perhaps unfair view of Guilliman, what faults does he have?

 

I was hoping you'd comment on this Wolf Lord Kieran, as I believe Sang was not the only one that was sound.

[Irabrai]

SANGUINIUS' PROBLEM WAS THAT HE HAD TWO GIANT :rolleyes: :P -ity :cuss :cuss :cuss :cuss ING WINGS SPROUTING FROM HIS BACK!!!

 

did this make him angelic, yes. WAS HE STILL A MUTANT, MORESO THAN ANY OTHER PRIMARCH? :cuss YES!

 

Unlike the primarch who grew fangs, or became more pale skinned and darker hair with age, or was a bronze/reddish giant with one eye? REALLY?

 

WLK

 

Actually Kieran, Magnus had two eyes originally (according to The Thousand Sons book) despite previous fluff saying he was a Cyclops (ok, hes still a bronze skinned giant). Tbh, Sanguinius in my opinion is the most popular Primarch because of the fact that he seemed to care alot, and despite knowing that he'd be slain by Horus, still went ahead and challenged him anyway.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

SANGUINIUS' PROBLEM WAS THAT HE HAD TWO GIANT :) B) -ity :cuss :cuss :cuss :cuss ING WINGS SPROUTING FROM HIS BACK!!!

 

did this make him angelic, yes. WAS HE STILL A MUTANT, MORESO THAN ANY OTHER PRIMARCH? :cuss YES!

 

Unlike the primarch who grew fangs, or became more pale skinned and darker hair with age, or was a bronze/reddish giant with one eye? REALLY?

 

WLK

 

Actually Kieran, Magnus had two eyes originally (according to The Thousand Sons book) despite previous fluff saying he was a Cyclops (ok, hes still a bronze skinned giant). Tbh, Sanguinius in my opinion is the most popular Primarch because of the fact that he seemed to care alot, and despite knowing that he'd be slain by Horus, still went ahead and challenged him anyway.

 

the comment was meant to be sarcastic.

 

now completely off topic, how many myths have a being giving up a limb (and specifically, an eye) for knowledge? Other than Odin of course.

 

WLK

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

A breakdown of the Loyalist Primarchs:

 

Ferrus Manus: From his depiction so far in the HH books and the HH: Collected Visions, Manus seems prones to blocks of anger that over-rides his reasoning process. A blunt hammer is a useful tool, but not in every situation. This will lead to stupid mistakes and a waste of resources. Not Warmaster material.

 

Rogal Dorn: Loyal, Proud, Honest. However, his reliance on the Pain Glove seems to me somewhat masochistic and desparate. I would place him as a effective 2nd in command, but don’t personally see him as Warmaster material.

 

Corax: Don’t know enough to effectively judge him, but here is what I do know: Removed his Legion from under Horus’s direct command after he got angry about his Legion not getting the credit they deserved, and withdrew his Marines from the Dropsite Massacre when the 2nd wave of Marines turned out to be reinforcements. This is then countered by his creation of the Weregeld, because what this says to me that if things get desparate enough, Corax will start fudging the rules and doing what needs to be done. While this is good for a General, in command of a selection of soldiers, I don’t believe this is good for the guy running the whole show.

 

Vulkan: As much as I like his Legion, judging him would be pretty hard. However, I wouldn’t place him for a candidate for Warmaster because I don’t believe he is forceful enough. Also, his cultural upbringing of self sacrifice (the Promethean Cult) has him fighting when retreating would be the better option (the Dropsite Massacre in “Raven’s Flight”).

 

Leman Russ: My Primarch. I love him, but don’t believe he would make a good Warmaster. Russ comes from a culture that places value upon the warrior, where life is a constant fight to stay alive. Because of this he respects those who fight alongside him, and few others. This would be a problem because the Warmaster is supposed to be politicking the Imperium’s vast armies and organizations while also purging individual war zones.

 

Lion El’Jonson: I cannot see him as the Warmaster for because he is unable to read the motives of those around him, thus making him unable to trust anybody. The Warmaster must be able to order his troops and trust that they carry out their orders to the best of their abilities. I don’t see the Lion as able to do this, and his efforts to micro-manage will wear himself and his forces down past combat effectiveness.

 

Jaghatai Khan: While I don’t know enough about the Khan to make a effective decision, what I do know makes me think he might make a effective Warmaster. He embraced the idea of unified humanity long before the Emperor found him, he obeys orders well enough to leave Russ when Russ was ambushed by the Alhpa Legion as he tried to return to Terra, and his knowledge of lightning warfare and courage allowed him to successfully retake and hold Lion’s Gate Space Port. When more information about him is released I can make a better judgement.

 

Roboute Guilliman: Havent formed a perfect opinion of him yet, as we havent got a lot of face time with him. I would hesitate to declare him Warmaster though, because he seems (to me) to be somewhat uncharismatic (as opposed to say Russ, Horus or Sangy) and distant. While the guy in complete command should be able to remain calm in the frenzy, some emotion is essential for his to understand what losing would truly mean. I see him as a valauble 2nd in command, but not Warmaster.

 

Sanguinius: While Sangy seems to be the best choice, and is my personal choice as he blends the most required of skills needed to be Warmaster, I do wonder (as I said in a earlier post) what he was keeping inside him. Every being has a dark petty side, and Sangy’s erupted when he was felled in combat (both in the Signis Cluster and the Siege of Terra) and that scares me. It is also the quiet ones that are the most dangerous, and Sangy is no exception.

 

@Marshal Wilhelm: Sorry for not commenting, I am a lazy typist and only respond to stuff if I feel a need too. I thought you hit everything pretty decently in your post, but did the above out of shame of being called out!

 

WLK

[Khairon]

The issue is not that any on Primarch would be better than any other at the job of Warmaster, but the fact that they would be most effective as a collective council. Need consultation on giant- ;) fortress? Dorn. Have a fast-moving opponent that needs to be hit hard and fast? Jaghatai. Need infiltrator genius? Corax, and soo on and so forth. The reason why Horus fell was because even he couldn't multi-tak to the degree that was needed. The whole problem with the contemporary universe of 40k is that it's one long chain of ball-droppage. (No naughty metaphor intended)

[Hialmar]

Sanguinius is a BAMF.

 

But what troubles me about him (and this isnt a crack at him, i like him), is that he was publicly too perfect. those who are seen without large flaws (as i believe Sangy has been so far) must have SOME problems, maybe buried deep in themselves. I wonder what plagued such a seemingly perfect being like SAnguinius?

 

I wonder if his death released whatever he had pent up for so long, marking the BA with the Black Rage. (also, when he was struck down in the Signus Cluster his legion to roused to war in such a manner that the chaos daemons were unable to keep up, and were wiped out)

 

WLK

 

I do not think that he would necessarily have to have been plagued by some sort of inner demons to be an interesting character. Actually he sort of strikes me at times like Balder from Norse mythology, basically universally loved by everyone and everything but then betrayed and killed by a brother. The Black Rage as I understand it was not because of anything he necessarily released but a psychic feedback that was transmitted to his "sons" upon his death. I thought it was because of grief at his loss that caused the Black Rage more than anything else.

 

On the other hand, if you think about it, if everyone basically thinks you to be perfect and even if you were, there would still be enourmous pressure to please everyone and to be everyhting to everyone, which could be unbelievably stressful in and of itself.

 

To touch on the OPs point, in my opinion and based on what I can recall of the fluff, if pre-heresy you had to rank the Primarch's in order of popularity by the general public, other Primarchs and your regular run of the mill Space Marines (if not naturally voting for their own Primarchs) then Sanguinious was probably the most popular followed very closely by Horus. As I recall Horus certainly thought he was the best of all of them. I don't think any of the others would even be in contention, as the remaining Primarchs all seemed to have petty quarrels with one another, or were jealous of one or more of the others for one reason or another. The Primarchs seemed to be somewhat like your average group of High School girls in that they seemed to form cliques at times, with Sanguinious being the star QB/best friend that they all liked even if he associated with some other group.

[Hialmar]

But what troubles me about him (and this isnt a crack at him, i like him), is that he was publicly too perfect. those who are seen without large flaws (as i believe Sangy has been so far) must have SOME problems, maybe buried deep in themselves. I wonder what plagued such a seemingly perfect being like Sanguinius?

 

...Guilliman - speaking from the internet's perspective: besides being seemingly an annoying twerp, until we get more fluff on the matter, we only really have our opinions of him. That he has rubbed up the back of the majority of Marine players makes me think that he is annoying and yet that is just our sense of it. Legatus puts forward a good defence of him and shows that it is our dislike of him, rather than fluff based facts, that makes us think of him as a jerk.

Is that because we don't like people who are our peers taking something over? We believe him to be self-important, self-promoted and a pretender to the role of Imperial Steward?

Who is he to punish to righteous for the sins of the wicked? Where in the fluff is he promoted and Dorn deposed, etc.

 

But besides a perhaps unfair view of Guilliman, what faults does he have?...

 

In my opinon the funny thing about Guilliman and the "internet view" is that GW has made the Ultramarines the face of Space Marines in so many ways and tend to hold them out there at times as this perfect ideal marine or as some sort of boy scouts. This I believe causes two problems for the "internet" crowd.

 

First of all, if the marines who were the poster boys for the company and game wore grey armor, red armor, yellow armor or any other color you want to pick, then whichever one it was would then become the most despised by some folks, as it seems to be human nature at times tear down the popular folks. Or maybe some people just have the urge to kind of go against the grain as it were and so if one perceives that "Oh, the Ultramarines are the ideal marine?,,Then I don't like them I like these other guys instead." Not saying this is right or wrong but if you look at anything from sports teams, to restaurants or anything else where there is a perception notion of this or that thing being the best, you will always have a group that will go counter to that opinion just to be contrary.

 

Secondly, and again this is only my opinion, but I doubt if many of us that play this game were ever the perfect soldier, or were ever considered "boy scouts" and I think that sometimes you get a bit of a knee jerk reaction to not like the guys that are to good to be true.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

@Marshal Wilhelm: Sorry for not commenting, I am a lazy typist and only respond to stuff if I feel a need too. I thought you hit everything pretty decently in your post, but did the above out of shame of being called out!

WLK

 

:P ~ shame, a powerful motivator :devil:

Blimey, SW, if it weren't for me you not be in the Fang's Arena of Blood or responding to that post!

I always said you were zeal deficient :devil:

 

In my opinon the funny thing about Guilliman and the "internet view" is that GW has made the Ultramarines the face of Space Marines in so many ways and tend to hold them out there at times as this perfect ideal marine or as some sort of boy scouts. This I believe causes two problems for the "internet" crowd.

 

First of all, if the marines who were the poster boys for the company and game wore grey armor, red armor, yellow armor or any other color you want to pick, then whichever one it was would then become the most despised by some folks, as it seems to be human nature at times tear down the popular folks. Or maybe some people just have the urge to kind of go against the grain as it were and so if one perceives that "Oh, the Ultramarines are the ideal marine?,,Then I don't like them I like these other guys instead." Not saying this is right or wrong but if you look at anything from sports teams, to restaurants or anything else where there is a perception notion of this or that thing being the best, you will always have a group that will go counter to that opinion just to be contrary.

 

Secondly, and again this is only my opinion, but I doubt if many of us that play this game were ever the perfect soldier, or were ever considered "boy scouts" and I think that sometimes you get a bit of a knee jerk reaction to not like the guys that are to good to be true.

 

I think that is true.

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

Every being has a dark petty side, and Sangy’s erupted when he was felled in combat (both in the Signis Cluster and the Siege of Terra) and that scares me. It is also the quiet ones that are the most dangerous, and Sangy is no exception.

 

It is. Speaking as one of the quiet, humble, righteous (as described by others of course) dudes. When I get angry, people always seem to just about crap themselves.

 

Perhaps it was the strength of the temptation to give in to his lesser nature and the strain it imposed on his better nature that birthed Sanguinius' darker moments. After all, when it's acceptable to let loose (in war against those who betrayed you), who knows what even the most serene individual may unleash?

 

The Khan - ??

Vulkan - ??

 

Khan was bloodthirsty as hell. He's based on Genghis, after all- Red Highway Massacre in their IA gives you an idea. Think if it hadn't been Angron there's a good chance the Blood God would have liked White Scars on his side.

 

Vulkan... we don't know a lot about him. I almost want to say too... accommodating. Humble. As a Warmaster he might have bent, or if that is too strong, given the appearance of bending, to his brothers' wishes and demands. In fact, he might do as good as Horus at politicking but the appearance of things would lead others to believe him to be weak.

 

Let's face it, though, as Warmaster, Horus was ultimately the only choice. And that's the problem.

[Brother-Captain Devlonir]

I also believe that Sanguinius was the most popular Primarch amongst his peers and the people of the Imperium because he, more than any other Primarch, embodies the aspect of the Angel of Death.

 

He taught his chapter to embrace all manners of tactics and was a brilliant leader of men, as is shown in how he manages to make his tribe on Baal, the Bloods, so very succesful under him while living on a horrible Death World. The Blood Angels are a chapter that enjoy two things above all others in combat: swift decisive manouvers and the swift and clean death of hand-to-hand combat. They are no brute force chapter like the World Eaters but still handle themselves strongly in close combat. This was the main reason for the animosit between those two legions.

 

But above all, Sanguinius was very empathic. Even at the moment when he was facing Horus, did he not simply charge and try to kill his former friend. He tried to convince him and revert him back to the cause of the Emperor. No other Primarch would have given Horus this final chance in that moment, I am sure of that.

A powerful warrior, a brilliant tactician and a true human in his heart. He was indeed the best humanity had to offer in their greatest hour of need. For him to fall to Horus was a powerful blow to the entire Imperium.

 

And his gene is so strong, that powerful aspects of it still live on within his sons in the current age. The old and wise Commander Dante, a true tactical genious respected by his peers in the same way that Sanguinius was as was shown on Armageddon when the Ultramarines and Salamanders turned overall command to him. Brother Corbulo who shares his primarch's power of foresight. And Mephiston, possibly the strongest loyalist psyker in the universe. Those are as much his legacy as the Red Thirst and Black Rage are.

[jbdevega]

Rogal Dorn: Loyal, Proud, Honest. However, his reliance on the Pain Glove seems to me somewhat masochistic and desparate. I would place him as a effective 2nd in command, but don’t personally see him as Warmaster material.

Dorn seemed to get rather depressed after placing the Emperor int he Golden Throne. I dont think a gloomy person would be fit to lead others.

 

Corax: Don’t know enough to effectively judge him, but here is what I do know: Removed his Legion from under Horus’s direct command after he got angry about his Legion not getting the credit they deserved, and withdrew his Marines from the Dropsite Massacre when the 2nd wave of Marines turned out to be reinforcements. This is then countered by his creation of the Weregeld, because what this says to me that if things get desparate enough, Corax will start fudging the rules and doing what needs to be done. While this is good for a General, in command of a selection of soldiers, I don’t believe this is good for the guy running the whole show.

Corax seems to have this attitude where he all ways needs to be right, while such solidarity in command is good for a leader i also think it will lead him to make poor decisions because of his refusal to listen to others around him.

 

Vulkan: As much as I like his Legion, judging him would be pretty hard. However, I wouldn’t place him for a candidate for Warmaster because I don’t believe he is forceful enough. Also, his cultural upbringing of self sacrifice (the Promethean Cult) has him fighting when retreating would be the better option (the Dropsite Massacre in “Raven’s Flight”).

I think hes forceful enough but Promethean Cult will get in the way from him making and absolute decision. I think he would all ways be torn between protecting every life in the Imperium even if that means more casualties for the Imperial Guard and Astartes. a good leader cant let his emotions run the battlefield like that.

 

Lion El’Jonson: I cannot see him as the Warmaster for because he is unable to read the motives of those around him, thus making him unable to trust anybody. The Warmaster must be able to order his troops and trust that they carry out their orders to the best of their abilities. I don’t see the Lion as able to do this, and his efforts to micro-manage will wear himself and his forces down past combat effectiveness.

Lion El'Jonson has issues...In my personal opinion i dont even think hes fit to lead a Legion...

 

Roboute Guilliman: Havent formed a perfect opinion of him yet, as we havent got a lot of face time with him. I would hesitate to declare him Warmaster though, because he seems (to me) to be somewhat uncharismatic (as opposed to say Russ, Horus or Sangy) and distant. While the guy in complete command should be able to remain calm in the frenzy, some emotion is essential for his to understand what losing would truly mean. I see him as a valauble 2nd in command, but not Warmaster.

Guilliman has a lot saying he will be a good commander and politician, but i think his efforts to protect the Imperium after the Heresy speak more against him then for him. He reunites the Imperium of man only to divide it, a good Leader commands with loyalty not with scripture. He basically set up the Imperium for failure thinking it was best possible choice. I think the Imperium would be less messed up if he toke personal command other the entire Imperium, his lack of ability to take on this role and his decision for dividing the Imperium i think is what shows his failure to command.

 

Sanguinius: While Sangy seems to be the best choice, and is my personal choice as he blends the most required of skills needed to be Warmaster, I do wonder (as I said in a earlier post) what he was keeping inside him. Every being has a dark petty side, and Sangy’s erupted when he was felled in combat (both in the Signis Cluster and the Siege of Terra) and that scares me. It is also the quiet ones that are the most dangerous, and Sangy is no exception.

Sanguinius is another one i think has issues but i think he is very good at hiding them. Pesonaly he seems like a perfectionist because hes all ways hiding his flaw(s) while everything about him says he would be a good leader if he is a perfectionist then well that would make him a terrible leader.

 

just my 2 cent, also i cant say much about Khan and i already agree with whats said about Mannus.

[Captain Idaho]

No offences, but you are way off with some of your critques! :) No need to be so critical of the personalities of the Primarchs:

 

Dorn seemed to get rather depressed after placing the Emperor int he Golden Throne. I dont think a gloomy person would be fit to lead others.

 

You have underestimated the emotions involved with Dorn. He put his every effort into defending the Imperial Palace against the most formidable foe, was part of the boarding party against the Warmaster's battle barge, witnessed horrors unimaginable, then to top it all off, was the one who found the body of his brothers and father. Deppression doesn't quite cover it! Borderline insanity brought on by grief and regret and the pain you can feel only when you lose the ones you love, would be a fairer explanation!

 

Corax seems to have this attitude where he all ways needs to be right, while such solidarity in command is good for a leader i also think it will lead him to make poor decisions because of his refusal to listen to others around him.

 

Corax was never portrayed as arrogant directly, though I'm sure there would be an element in there. He was described as ever cautious, alongside Guilliman warned the Emperor of Mortarion's loyalties before the Heresy was even a glint in his eye's and disliked boastful and arrogant people. Whilst I agree his nature would lead him to being unsuitable as Warmaster, he was not a fool and ignored good advice. He was the one who advised caution against throwing their all at the traitors at Isstvaan after all.

 

I think hes forceful enough but Promethean Cult will get in the way from him making and absolute decision. I think he would all ways be torn between protecting every life in the Imperium even if that means more casualties for the Imperial Guard and Astartes. a good leader cant let his emotions run the battlefield like that.

 

This I agree with. Obviously we have limited information on him, probably less than any other Primarch to be honest. But yeah I agree with this, as needless loss of life was one of the driving factors that contributed to Horus' downfall (he was close to the edge and his spirit was weakened when he was fighting the temptations of Erebus). The effect would be just as bad on Vulkan, I would imagine. He would likely clash with other Primarchs over the issue also.

 

Lion El'Jonson has issues...In my personal opinion i dont even think hes fit to lead a Legion...

 

Ha I think I agree, but then I have never really liked the Dark Angels so may be biased. :lol:

 

Guilliman has a lot saying he will be a good commander and politician, but i think his efforts to protect the Imperium after the Heresy speak more against him then for him. He reunites the Imperium of man only to divide it, a good Leader commands with loyalty not with scripture. He basically set up the Imperium for failure thinking it was best possible choice. I think the Imperium would be less messed up if he toke personal command other the entire Imperium, his lack of ability to take on this role and his decision for dividing the Imperium i think is what shows his failure to command.

 

Ah, you are a "Legionist"! Guilliman did what he had to do and there is not an ounce of fluff that disputes it really. Let's not forget that Guilliman had his supporters in his reorganisations, so critising him is also critising Corax and Khan, as well as the rest of the Human leadership.

 

The divisions are already apparent in the Imperium, with only the Emperor being the uniting factor. With his enternment within the Goldern Throne, I think it is remarkable that Guilliman managed to do what he did.

 

Look at things this way; Whilst the Emperor and the Primarchs were around, there is roughly 200 years of the Imperium, probably less considering that at the begining the Imperium would have consisted of just the solar system and had to be built around it! Now consider that the post-Heresy period has existed for 10,000 years! That isn't bad really ;)

 

Sanguinius is another one i think has issues but i think he is very good at hiding them. Pesonaly he seems like a perfectionist because hes all ways hiding his flaw(s) while everything about him says he would be a good leader if he is a perfectionist then well that would make him a terrible leader.

 

No way! Sanguinius may have some darkness in his soul, relating to his rage or whatever, but he has managed to control his rage pretty well don't you think? In fact, I'm not even sure this rage is even relating to him, but his sons and triggered by the loss of their Primarch. Hardly a liability for Imperial management!

 

Sanguinius was a favourite of mine, I really think he should have been Warmaster after Horus (no one had the influence on the other Primarchs more than he).

 

And I don't know if being a Perfectionist is really a liability? Surely that would be a good thing!

 

Obviously I may be way off myself, but over all I think I was alot fairer! ;)

[lee265]

It has been my opinion that for a while now that any of the emperors sons that we know of could have been Th Warmaster had they been found first of the known 18 Primarchs. Most have some talent that would have made it acceptable.

 

The big thing with Sanguinius is that Horus himself seems to think he would have been a better choice because we don't know to much more concrete then that.