Command Squad Trickery :)

[Velkairiwyth]

Been reading many threads lately on command squads, honour guard etc etc - and until reading these, I was never a fan of the command squad, but after spending many hours tinkering with army lists, I have discovered many little things I didnt realise about them, I shall share some here. I am curious as to how you run yours, what tactics and gearing you have found work best, etc etc. :D

 

First a note: It appears that it is agreed that all members of the command squad (Edit: Except the apothecary!) can take wargear changes - including the Company Champion. (Arguments being that he is upgraded from a veteran, and that their gear line doesnt include anything like power armour which they come with anyway. My lists below are based on the assumption that you will be playing by this interpretation.)

 

PLAS-COMMAND SQUAD

The command squad can be used as a fire-platform - i suspect seperate from the captain it is bought with.

 

The norm seems to be 4 plasma gunners and an apothecary.

 

The apothecary allows feel no pain rolls on failed saves from weapon overheats. Combined with the power armour save it is a lot less risky using plasma guns from these troops than from other infantry.

 

BIKER COMMAND SQUAD

Expensive. VERY expensive to gear up well, but I have noticed some nice little tricks that can be used.

 

Firstly, you need storm shields. Not necesarrily on every trooper - although for the points investment you are making - you would be foolish to not try your best to cover as many as possible IMO.

 

If you have a biker command squad... throwing them in with Khan makes them LETHAL. With him in the squad the unit has the following:

Feel no Pain: (standard)

Toughness 5 (standard) It isnt going to save anyone from the effects of S8 weaponry instakilling Khan or bypassing feel no pain, but against AI fire it makes a huge difference!

Furious Charge: (+1s and +1i means your hitting first against many, and can avoid power fists as you want to abuse the extra initiative.)

hit and run: (Awesome when tarpitted or when your in a lengthly engagement and want to get another charge in for the furious charge bonuses and extra attacks) - be aware that doing this in your own turn CAN be a good move but you need to be very cautious. You release the unit to shoot (if it has guns) charge (if you dont get a good roll to consolodate) and open yourself up to fire on the enemy turn. The unit is resilient, (moreso than a terminator squad) but every time dice are rolled, bad things happen.

OutflankKhan grants Combat Tactics that allow outflanking. This allows the command squad to outflank - which is IMO very very nice. You avoid the unit being picked off from focused fire in the first round(s) and can come on the board edge, and can threaten an 18" area with those special weapons followed by a furious charge.

Edit: Fleet of Foot removed as per Koremu's correction :) - It only affects Khan, and you really dont want him to leave a melee oriented command squad (for the most part...)

 

Here is my latest gear out that I am experimenting with: (Note: Edited after comments)

Apothecary

Company Champion with plasma gun + storm shield.

Biker with Melta gun, Storm Shield & Lightening claw.

Biker with Plasma gun, Storm shield & lightening claw.

Biker with Flamer, Storm Shield & lightening claw.

=340 points. (545 with Khan on bike... thats a landraider with 6 termies in.)

 

(After edit, Im not so keen on the special weapons loadout here, its a bit mix and match and might encourage me to take on things Im unlikely to win with (e.g trying to pop a landraider with a single melta, and wasting the other specials, but there are notes on special weapons below.)

 

Notes:

 

Since the storm shield prevents +1A for multiple weapons, lightening claws are much better than power swords since they allow rerolls to-wound.

 

A biker and the apothecary are sans storm shield, this might seem like a poor move (perhaps better taking the one off the troop with no plasma gun, or giving him a melta to make him unique?) but: This is for wound allocation purposes. No two bikers are the same, thus if I am hit with a large number of armour ignoring attacks (Inferno rounds, barrage of demolisher cannon shots from a leman russ squad, hit by howling banshees or tyranid warriors, fighting terminators, etc etc) then I can stack the armour ignoring shots on the lowest priority model (Or on the one that will die due to no save - except for feel no pain on the inferno rounds) - some would say a cheap tactic... but for a unit that costs 545 points and is 6 models strong... Damn sure Im being tricksy!

 

Special weapons loadout can be changed if you wish to tailor the list (If its not an allcomers list, but one you can change if you know your oponnent). For example: know your opponent is packing Terminator packed land raiders? Slap on 4 melta guns instead of 3 plasma guns (+5 points to the unit) and you can zoom up, crack open that land raider, and nom up the contents before they can strike back.

 

Fighting horde? those 4 melta gun shots, or 6 plasma gun shots might be nasty... but not as nasty as placing 4 flamer templates on that squad of ork boyz! (averaging what... 4-8 troops a template? = 16-32 hits averaging 8-16 kills before the charge - although your unlikely to get it takign that many troops out as they will take the closest leaving you with a large gap to leap and a possibly fleeing unit!)

 

BUDGET OUTFLANKER

Similar to the biker command squad - if you dont want to cough up 135 points to put the command squad and khan on bikes - you can slap them in a razorback/rhino for 35/40 points and go outflanking in that. You wont get to assault on the outflank which is a big strength, but if you come on with other outflanking units, or opt to shoot some meltas/plasma at rear armour from the top hatch it can be effective. Just be careful not to get swarmed in melee from those your trying to ambush and killed within a wrecked transport.

 

I have done this against imperial guard with the following loadout:

Khan,

base apothecary

company standard

base company champion

2 melta guns

 

When fighting imperial guard, and moving on the baord took out a leman russ's battle cannon, managed an emergency disembark out the front of the rhino when his HQ popped it in melee, then charged and killed the HQ without casualty, took a volley of fire from a nearby squad (yey for feel no pain!) and then killed them on the charge/sweeping advance. I dont think I would use this technique again though as it was an experimental Khan outflank list. I won the battle (by 1 KP!) but against an army with even a little mobility (his was gunline infantry with some tanks.) I would be left stranded once the transport is popped.

 

How do you use your command squads?

 

/Ramble.

[Koremu]

Khan's bike only makes him Fleet, not the rest of the Command Squad. Also, you cannot upgrade the Apothecary at all - he's not a Veteran.

 

Also, IMO either go with the Heavy Dragoon route, or go with the CC route, as I said before (as linked in my .sig);

 

Regardless of who the Captain is, Bike Squads and Bikers Command Squads have very different roles. The Command Squad is a flexible unit that can be equippped into a number of roles, few of which duplicate the standard Bike Squads role.

 

In my opinion, any Biker Command Squad setup that simply mimics the standard Bike Squad role will be found lacking, as at the end of the day the standard biker squad can do it and be scoring.

 

There are two real divisions in how you look to set up a Command Squad - they can be broadly characterised as "Cataphract" and "Heavy Dragoon". The former exploits the Heavy-Cavalry-esque traits of the Command Squad - the availability of Storm Shields, the presence of Feel No Pain, and wielding Power Weapons - to form a hard hitting strike unit to act as a primary strike force on the battlefield. Doing this requires a hefy investment of points.

 

Heavy Dragoon setups meanwhile exploit the ability of the Command Squad to pack multiples of the same special weapon. This is generally the cheaper of the two Biker Command Squad setups, but is not by any means weak, as it is able to apply a devastating amount of firepower onto a wide area of the table at will. However, it does rely on either the Captain or a "Defender" Veteran to provide for and protect against enemy assaults.

 

It is possible to do both of the above in a single unit - there's nothing stopping you from arming all four veterans with Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield and Plasma Gun as well as a bike if you want - but it will generally be prohibitatively expensive (445 points, not including the Captain, for the above mentioned 5 man squad). Once you are at the point where you can buy 5 Assault Terminators *and* a Land Raider for the points cost, you might want to rethink your cunning plan.

[Fatuous]

I was not aware that apothacarys could take upgrades tbh, and would be very wary about trying to persuade my opponents that they can.

[Velkairiwyth]

Maybe i misinterpreted a bit. I see what was meant :D Ah well, bit of a shuffle around the gear a bit and I will be happy with it - the special weapons are just for AP2 softening before getting stuck in ^.^ I see them as more melee oriented with the special char since you really dont want such an expensive unit to be open to shooting as they are a juicy target.

 

As for Khans "fleet ability" You are indeed correct there aswell! (One day Ill learn ;) )

 

I shall amend my original post so as not to confuse anyone else who comes and reads these, as that would not be very good :)

[Velkairiwyth]

Original post now edited, thanks for the corrections. It does leave me with a little question though! Would it cost to exchange the power sword for lightening claws? The wording of the gear up is to replace the "chainsword/bolt pistol with ..." - but not power sword and combat shield. Storm shield states "can be added" and he has a bolt pistol that can be replaced... (i.e plasma gun) but when it comes to Lightening claw... Im thinking the only option available is to have LC AND a power sword, and pay +15 points, and not be able to take a special...

 

For simplicity Im going to keep him with his power sword, and upgrade his survivability + a special weapon as he loses the extra attack from SS.

 

On the bright side, my HQ just got cheaper... :P

[Giga]

So far, I've seen two effective command squad loadouts. One is for vanilla marines and blood angels, the other is only for blood angels.

 

For vanilla & BA:

4x plasmagun

razorback

 

For blood angels only (it's actually called honor guard, but it's the same thing really):

4x flamer

razorback with heavy flamer

 

It's pretty obvious how they work. :P

[DarkGuard]

When I run a Command Squad I will run them with 4x plasma guns in a Razorback, often accompanied by a Captain with arty armour, Relic Blade, bolter, digi weapons and hellfire rounds.

 

An awesome rapid response force for large units of MEQ or MCs, able to pump out lots of high strength AP2 wounds, plus in combat the Captain isn't too shabby and does contribute to shooting. I did play about with 3 plasma guns and a thunder hammer as these guys will get charged, but found I preferred the extra 2 shots. These guys won't stick about long in combat so if that unit survives the plasma shots they will get charged, meaning you will probably only get one turn, maybe two turns use of them.

 

This fact combined with how poorly they perform compared to my large Sternguard Squad means I haven't used them in a while, but they're around to be used.

 

Also, when I did use Khan I used a cheap foot unit with Company Champion and normal Marines, led by Khan. Doesn't sound much but you have two power weapons in that unit, both striking at S5 if you get the charge. Luckily the boards are small so they often got the charge off first turn they arrived, and you got spare bodies for the inevitable armour saves. Performs ok.

[Ookami_81]

TBH I really think a champion cannot take any upgrade, neither the apothecary.

I'll add that T5 for bikers doesn't prevent from dying instant death vs S8 weapons. It's written black on white in the BRB.

 

I'm keen on the Biker Command Squad of Death, my "Knights Templar heavy cavalry" as I call them:

- Horses (well, bikes)

- Apothecary

- Champion (I love him, but you can be even more powerful... without it, replacing him with a SS + LC regular vet)

- Vet with banner, SS, LC and meltagun. (I modeled the combo meltagun + LC in the form of a heavy lance with bitz on it, and put the Storm Shield in front of the bike, in an "iron-shield" shape, and it's really cool looking).

- Vet with SS, LC and meltagun.

- Vet with TH and SS.

This with Khan on moodrakkan OR captain with bike, relic blade, hellfire rounds.

 

I'll try to magnetise other arms for them and also the magnetize the SS in order to use them in other styles, cheaper, that is only with meltaguns or only with CC gear. The aim is to use them in sub-1500 pts lists.

[Frosty the Pyro]

If I was going to do a bike comand squad (which I'm not cus I dont own any bikes) I would go with 4x flamers and some CC kit (a fist and/or lighning claw or two) and atach em to a fast hq.

[Ookami_81]

Good option, very anti-infantry oriented. BUT, I think this is an age of mech infantry.

 

It could be a good idea for such a costy unit to be able to crack open any transport to charge the load up after. Or even to weaken heavy infantry formations before charging. That why many people use plasma or melta weapons on them.

[Velkairiwyth]

Well, after reading the biker tactica suggested by Koremu (Actually discovered it when reading the water tactics thread, it took me that long to get round to it...) I opted to replicate the 1500 point suggested biker army.

 

Captain on bike with Relic B and Artificer

Command HQ

1. Claw + Plasma

2. Claw + Plasma + Storm Shield

3. Plasma + Storm Shield

4. Company Champion

Transport: Razorback

 

Bike squad 1:

One extra bike

2 meltas

MM attack bike

 

Bike squad 2:

<As 1>

 

Heavy Support:

2 x vindicators

 

Fast Attack

2 squads of 2xLandspeeder Typhoons.

 

The command squad gets some sting taken from its punch, and is built to be more defensive and durable. In the first round it will score less wounds due to lack of Furious charge - but thats compensated for by use of Relic Blade (Which I thought was what Khan had...) and lightening claws for wound rerolls. After the first round - it will be harder hitting as the relic blade will be more consistent at scoring wounds.

 

The two bike squads zoom about doing what they need to, cracking armour, sniping infantry and just trying to survive.

 

The vindicators provide some nice fire-support and a good deterrant to prevent the enemy coming too close, or risk heavy casualties. They also provide cover for the landspeeders. They also will hopefully act as a bit of a fire magnet attracting the heavier shots away from the speeders or bikers who will fall easily to them.

 

The landspeeders potter about in safety and pick off armour from its side, or wail on infantry/hordes. They try to survive to contest objectives at the end, and always aim to get that cover save as theres not a lot of armour in the army.

 

That lone razorback is pretty much mobile cover with a gun on (40 points to zip about providing flank cover for vindicators, or extra cover for speeders or bikes.) By the looks of it you could be cheeky and mount your HQ in the razorback for first turn if you want them on the board. (I will likely reserve unless fighting something that aint got many guns that i need to slay asap.)

 

Anyway, good guide, i thoroughly recommend it ^.^

 

/ramble.

 

p.s - apologies for this starting to turn into an army list thread :D there may be cookies.

[Zynk Kaladin]

This is how I'd run mine without bikes (need to find some more plasmaguns :\ ):

 

+1 Captain (relic blade, storm shield)

+4 Marines (plasmaguns)

+1 Apoch

+1 Razorback (heavy bolters)

 

Costs: 355pts

 

Very flexible unit. I got my CC covered with a 3+/3++ captain and Feel no Pain (unless they have power weapons) and my range covered with the Feel no Pain plasmagunners. This unit can effectively deal with anything except heavy armor, which obviously others in the army will deal with. I'd stack this setup with a a rhino toting a 9 man sternguad unit with 3 combi flamers, a powerfist, and 4 combi meltas accompanied by a libby with avenger and null zone. I'd then combat squad the sternguard into two respective groups, flamy and melty.

 

Expensive? Very. Flexible? Uuh, yes. Smart? Idk, but it looks good on paper so far.

[Gothical]

We all get an Apothecary, who can't be given equipment (a shame really).

I always add the Company Standard to mine - it's such an iconic piece that I feel it must be included if I'm taking a Command Squad.

 

There's some debate as to whether you should equip this guy like the rest of the Command Squad - one train of logic states that with the more upgrades you have on one model, the more "patsy" guys you have to suck up wounds; whilst the other train of thought is that having many upgrades on a single model makes it prohibitively expensive and can easily be a victim of the wound allocation rules.

 

As I run a Mechanised force a Razorback to transport them is almost a no-brainer - it's cheap and it brings along some decent firepower, and you don't *need* the extra capacity of the Rhino, nor the firepoints.

 

Obviously that combination weighs in at 170 points, so even the bare-bones squad is not cheap. The upgrades I add to the squad then depend on the points value, and frequently change from list-to-list (hence I like having the Apothecary and Standard Bearer without any upgrades - they can be kept constant whilst the other models are swapped).

 

Sometimes I merely add a Thunder Hammer to one guy and a couple of Meltaguns to the others (my Captain runs with a Combi-Melta and a Thunder Hammer) - the squad is "only" 220 points and so isn't too much of an aborration. Others it's 2x Thunder Hammers and a single Meltagun, with every model carrying a Bolter (so it's a ranged squad with serious Combat bite, which is handy supporting Tactical Squads and coming out of a transport without an Assault Ramp) for 240 points.

 

However I am highly considering giving the 3 guys Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields to have a "pseudo" Assault Terminator Squad that has the benefit of being able to Sweeping Advance (FNP and Power Armour = 2+ Save really), particularly if I am running "normal" Terminators in my list. But that is 305 points for the unit!

 

Although I do like the idea of adding in a Pair of Lightning Claws or two in place of that equipment for a squad that can strike at initiative and go through infantry like butter. Marginally cheaper too at 260 (3 pairs of Lightning Claws, or 2 and a Hammer, or 1 and 2 Hammers).

 

I used to try to keep the Squad really cheap, but found it didn't really have any bang for it's buck. Having some decent upgrades in the unit can really help, particularly if planning on using it in conjunction with a Tactical Squad or two, as I do. I never really favoured the Special-Weapon route, as outside of Vanguard the Command Squad is the only place to get a good variety and combination of Special Close Combat Weapons, and has the bonus of Feel No Pain and the ability to take Bikes, which edges them ahead of a Vanguard Squad, IMO.

[Meatman]

I'm wanting to try 2 plasma guns and a rhino. Keeps it cheap and the squad don't have to leave the transport to shoot (top hatch ftw). I'd stick these behind cover near my deployment zone and intercept units to rapid fire plasma out the top. RAW you can pop smoke and still fire out the top hatch so that will help when you leave hard cover.

 

Alternatively I'd go for a combat based one in a standard razor back as a counter assault unit. Keep it cheap with champion, and maybe a couple lightning claws. Nothing too fancy.

[captain sox]

I'm building several to go with my various captains.

 

First is 4 Plasma Pistols with Chainswords. They'll ride in my command Razorback (which has twin linked Assault Cannons).

The Captain, who has a combi-plasma will ride with them into CC.

 

Second is 4 Melta Guns and Combi-Melta Captain. They will be in a Rhino.

 

Third will be 4 Flamers with Combi-Flamer Captain, in a Rhino.

 

Last will be a 4 Storm Bolters, to sit back and unleash the fire. These chaps will have power swords though.

[Sanctjud]

Note, hit and run can fail...so...becareful with that.

_______________

I dont' like the command squad kitted for combat...it's too expensive, low model count, and exposed on the way there.

A biker list is in general supposed to play like water.

A Death Star like that does not fit in that well.

 

It can certainly wreck face, but it just doesn't look very cost efficient for what you get... it's still low output if you think about it due to the low model count.

 

I really prefer the Command Squad with special weapons, you won't get that much spamming anywhere else...while if you need a combat unit there are other more cost efficient options.

 

But I will say, it's quite fun to have around.

 

-Sanct.

[Arikel]

I have a command squad that adds a lil more oomph to my relic blade captain. Running 1 champion, 1 battle standard, 1 bullet soaker and 1 veteran with a PF and a flamer and of course the apothecary. I am more of a build what I like fellow then a tourney player but it looks nice and has done decent in the games I've played. It also tends to ride in the Redeemer i got as a birthday gift last year, since I don't have any assault termies to put in it yet, at 175 points I figure it's a decent alternative as a counter assault unit.

[garreth]

I field command squad like this: 2*meltaguns, meltagun+storm shield, company standart+thunderhammer, apothecary with captain (relic blase, SS, art armor). It's work very good against heavy troopers, vehicles, and mediocle against swarms.

[Ookami_81]

I dont' like the command squad kitted for combat...it's too expensive, low model count, and exposed on the way there.

A biker list is in general supposed to play like water.

A Death Star like that does not fit in that well.

 

It can certainly wreck face, but it just doesn't look very cost efficient for what you get... it's still low output if you think about it due to the low model count.

 

I really prefer the Command Squad with special weapons, you won't get that much spamming anywhere else...while if you need a combat unit there are other more cost efficient options.

 

But I will say, it's quite fun to have around.

 

-Sanct.

 

I'm well aware of all that. I don't agree with the "water-style" for bikes, these are tailored "air". Even if by water you think "kiting" with bikes using superior mobility to shoot to death other units while preventing being stuck and then destroyed into combat, I'll agree wholeheartedly for regular bike squads.

Some thoughts:

- There are times where you simply can't avoid combat. Because of anything from a mistake to an unforseen enemy movement. Those things happens frequently on a battlefield. Even with an air army played in water style, sometimes you need a unit to survive and you know it'll enter combat and loose if said combat last more than one turn. In these cases you're really happy to have somewhere a unit that can help fast and destroy just about anything both in shooting and in assault.

- Having such a unit well protected with SS is invaluable to protect the rest of the army by providing heavy cover and diverting enemy's fire.

- There are of course other assaulty units like assault marines, vanguards or hammernators, but all of them are too expensive in a way. assault marines are sometimes just too weak, so useless, so too expensive for what they are required. Vanguards are despised by many players for not being survivable enough and much too expensive. Hammernators are OK, but they are not that cost effiscient cause you really need a LRC to hold them.

- And finally, for fluffy reasons, I don't like fielding hammernators and LRs in my DIY chapter. To me the fielding of such rare items in mass or even a few of these in "the battlefield of the day" that doesn't imply the survival of the chapter is plain nonsense: TDA are lost technologies. When they are lost, destroyed in battle, you can't have new ones. Not a problem for Ultras or BA, they have huge armouries. For a DIY chapter, so a "little/poor" chapter, fielding those things without replacement is dumb if the battle is not worth it. On the contrary, PA and bikes are issued standard and mass produced. They provide an excellent wrecking face unit if properly tailored, so any SM chapter can have one !

- special weapons on command squad on bikes are a REQUIREMENT for me. To me nobrainer equipment is SS and special weapons, namely meltaguns for me. IMHO the true DS biker command suad unit is BOTH CC and special weapon shooting. If you can't/won't pay the price for everything in your list, I would prefer 99% of the time skipping TH and LC, and stay only with meltaguns and SS. Again think of them as heavy cavalry. A knight on horse needs first and foremost a horse (of course), an armour, then... a shield and a heavy lance ! Those are the main weapons, for him. The sword (or the axe) is a sidearm, a secondary item. You lose it, it's a shame and it may cost you your life if you're stuck in melee. If you don't have a good lance, you just can't do your job. Replace the horse by the bike, the suit of armour by the PA, the lance with the meltagun (or plasmagun), and the sword by either LCs, PFist, THs... and you've got the idea.

[chaplain belisarius]

i run them as a cheap counter charging unit-bp, ccw, 2 meltaguns. Led by a cheap captain and in a razorback with heavy bolters. They are not a uber unit but they do ok(i mostly play 1k battles)...

[Ookami_81]

Indeed in 1k pts you can't use them fully kitted. I sometimes use them in a 1500 pts list, but it's borderline. Fully kitted command squads, exceptionnaly on bikes, are for 2000 pts + games.

 

What do you call a cheap captain ? Naked + relic blade ?

[chaplain belisarius]

power weapon...thats it! he does ok as a counter attack unit along with his command squad...i love playing 1k games :P

[Ookami_81]

So you use him as an excuse to have a command squad. IMO, bar the ability to have command squad, naked captain are not worth their points. Better use a chappy or libby as naked IC. (Even chappy are IMO much better with JPs).

 

Try using bolter + RB captain, that's what I call "naked". 15 pts more to have a really good weapon, a so much better one than a regular PW. You're just losing an attack but you can use the captain on many more targets, including transports !

[chaplain belisarius]

ive grown rather attached to my powersword wielding captain...in bigger battles i will tool stuff up but as i mostly play 1k games, i like as many boots on the ground as possible! (i enjoy the challenge of playing 1k games...its very tough to get the best out of my marines!)

[Sanctjud]

@Ookami_81:

 

It’s called water because with that speed you are able to judge when you need to charge or when you need to shoot.

The bikers can use their relative durability and charge bonus to wreck house (in addition to some close range shooting) in combat in a ‘clean up’ fashion.

 

Combat for bikers is not advisable all the time, but they have done what is needed, when it is needed.

Water is all about reaction…and bikers can do that.

They can play Earth (due to durability and versus lists like Necrons)

They can play Fire (due to the mass TL bolters, Special weapon they can bring to bear)

They can play Air (due to the speed and midrange capabilities of the bikers)

Etc. Etc.

 

-Avoiding Combat is nice, but the board is only so big, and the ability to avoid combat scales down as the points increase.

-SS is only good on a squad that commits early and is likely to be caught out in the open. I can see the use, but it’s not on a ‘need’ basis. The SS don’t protect anyone else but the wielders…

-I agree that Assault marines really don’t live up to their name unless multipliers are applied….even then… Vanguard, agreed. Hamminators… I will not comment. I am experimenting with a ground pounder 9-10 man squad, as crappy as it sounds :).

-Your fluff is your fluff.

-I agree that Special weapons come first on the command squad.

 

I disagree that the command squad is ‘for’ combat.

Just because they ‘look’ relative to other bikers, combat oriented doesn’t mean they are solely for that.

Their favorable damage output is quite narrow in combat, due to the actual low output due to low model count in the squad.

 

I don’t think Meltas translates to lances very well, but that’s your PoV :D.

 

-Sanct.

 

PS: random note, I think Mathhammer-wise, a single claw will kill more on average vs. T4 and up than the power weapon and additional hand weapon.