DH downloadable pdf codex...

[Isiah]

GW have recently made both the Deamonhunters and Witch Hunters codexes available as downloads from their site. There are already two topic on their craptasticness in the +ORDO INQUISITION+ section:

 

PDFs are up, If missed from the 2010 Topic

 

PDF update, becasue apparently GW doesn't have the time to do it themselves

 

so I shan't dwell too closely on those issues of rules that could/should have been tweaked for the pdf version - go read those topics.

 

But the one that us as Unforgiven fall foul of (actually any other Imperial army) is that the Allies rule has gone. That means no more GKTs figthing alongside my Deathwing, or Inquisitors plus Mystics in any other SM or Guard armies for that matter.

 

I find this beyond belief that the well known figure of an Inquisitor who for millennia has fought alongside or lead other armies is a thing no longer possible on the tabletop - unless in Apocolypse.

 

I for one shall miss the excellent cc-effectiveness of a GKGM or BC with accompnying retinue, not to mention the handy psychic powers and the Ld10 psychic hood. It's all conspired to make my gaming a lot less pleasureable :P.

 

[Edit: I should just mention that the German pdf version still contains the Allies rule, so maybe I'll use that one instead :P]

 

Cheers

I

[Octavulg]

So this is what it's like being kicked when you're down. :woot:

[exsulis81]

I'll just continue to use my printed book

[Brother-Redemptor]

How is that a bad thing for the unforgiven/why is it under the dark angel’s forum. It doesn't even pertain to the unforgiven, especially since they are very secretive and wouldn’t have GKT or inquisition allies.

[EPK]

How is that a bad thing for the unforgiven/why is it under the dark angel’s forum. It doesn't even pertain to the unforgiven, especially since they are very secretive and wouldn’t have GKT or inquisition allies.

 

It does pertain to the fluff of DA but it does indeed pertain to viable DA, by way of Deathwing, army lists. As Isiah already said, we can no longer rely on the superior Leadership of GK Grand Master or Brother Captain to augment a Deathwing army list (or any DA list for that matter).

[Brother-Redemptor]

Again if this is a thread about DA, which if you go by DA fluff you wouldn't ever field a Gk anything with the DA. Then why is it in a DA thread. Just curious, seems like anything thing else that doesn't pertain to DA either gets deleted or moved. Why should this thread be any different.

[Octavulg]

...Because the Allies rule was frequently used by many Dark Angels players to supplement their armies, and this change has an effect on those players? Like the guy just said?

 

Seriously, dude. It relates.

 

Same reason discussing using the Space Wolf codex to play DA is topical.

[RayJ]

We have discussions on the DA all the time about using allies in games. Just because you're so adherent to decades old text doesn't mean those of us wanting to have fun should suffer. Allied Grey Knights allow Dark Angels the ability to field a potent anti-psyker unit into our armies. In addition, we can get many of the same benefits that any other space marine chapter or guard can get from inquisitors and their henchmen.

 

Sure part of playing with the Dark Angels Codex is dealing with the differences and making the most out of unique rules in our own codex. Not all of us started playing the army because of the fluff, however. I can tell you I started playing the army because I could field terminators as troops and forgo the need for tactical marines. I happen to enjoy the fluff now that I've been working with it for so long, but don't assume that everyone in all of 40k (that's a lot of people) share your same limited view.

[Dark Dajin]

Does the PDF trump the paper codex? Or if you have the paper codex, you can use RAW?

 

I ask because the PDF Codex was not introduced as an updated version. Merely a reduced version. (or was it?)

[Brother-Redemptor]

I'm not saying that playing against fluff is wrong. Personally, I have IG that I play with using DA colors that were the DA IG support prior to the Heresy and haven't given up there history/colors. I play with both in Apoc games. I'm just stating that DH/WH PDF discussion should stay in its own Forum not DA's. It's just my opinion and that's why this site was created right...No need to slam me for feeling that way.

 

Also if you don't play fluff and you just want to have fun, then why does it matter what the DH/WH codex says. If you love DH anit-pyskers then use them. All you have to do is talk to you opponent.

[RayJ]

Unfortunately, when playing in tournaments, you don't have the luxury of asking each of your opponents for permission. Since DAs frequently use the Grek Knight Grand Master, the loss of the unit is in fact a blow to us in that environment. While we do have a specific sub-forum for DH/WH, it's not wrong to discuss how that affects forces that have allied select pieces to fill tactical gaps in army construction. At that point we are no longer talking about a DH or WH army, so discussion on those forums would not make sense.

[HsojVvad]

All I have to say, prove to me the allies rule is gone. Why do they mention it in the codex then? Then again if you want to get technical, there is no FoC chart as well. So does that mean DH and WH can field what ever they want?

[Decoy]

All I have to say, prove to me the allies rule is gone. Why do they mention it in the codex then? Then again if you want to get technical, there is no FoC chart as well. So does that mean DH and WH can field what ever they want?

 

 

No, if you want to get technical, a lack of a FoC means that DH/WH can't field anything, ever, since you can only field a number of Chart slots equal to the FoC in your Codex. Lacking a FoC, there can be no army. Getcher fake RAW rulehammerin' outta here.

 

 

On topic, in friendly games, take 'em anyways. Who cares? Let GW sort out the Tournie scene for now, or your FLGS. If you find "That Guy" at your gaming store and he -insists- you play with the "upgraded" DH Codex (no allies), then just do it and curbstomp 'em. ^_^

 

If anyone can deal with (debatable) adversity like this, you DA boys can. Stiff upper lip, chaps!

[Isiah]

Again if this is a thread about DA, which if you go by DA fluff you wouldn't ever field a Gk anything with the DA. Then why is it in a DA thread. Just curious, seems like anything thing else that doesn't pertain to DA either gets deleted or moved. Why should this thread be any different.

 

It's a fair point Brother-Redemptor so let me explain.

 

I was coming at this from the perspective of one who uses the DA Codex if course. In that codex, there is no longer a restriction on using allies. IMHO the GK options provided useful force multipliers to some DW builds - offering nifty psychic powers, weapons combinations and abilities we can only dream about. If you take off your fluff goggles (as I have) and realise this in terms of raw gaming potential then much fun can be had.

 

Besides, nowhere in any printed fluff that I have found on the DA can I see a blanket statement that says: "thou shalt not combine Unforgiven forces with Grey Knights". :D.

 

I know of a few people here who like me have explored the use of GK within their DA armies - and this topic was solely a vehicle to solicit their views on the loss of this valued extension to our existing DA toolbox. It is not a topic about the DH per se, that should of course be placed in domain of the ORDOS section.

 

My apologies to you or anybody else including my fellow DA mods if I caused outrage through, ahm, the peddling of outright 'fluff-heresy', or confusion by the mention of the DH codex in the DA section - that certainly wasn't my intention :D.

 

 

Cheers, a very chastised

I

[HsojVvad]

All I have to say, prove to me the allies rule is gone. Why do they mention it in the codex then? Then again if you want to get technical, there is no FoC chart as well. So does that mean DH and WH can field what ever they want?

 

 

No, if you want to get technical, a lack of a FoC means that DH/WH can't field anything, ever, since you can only field a number of Chart slots equal to the FoC in your Codex. Lacking a FoC, there can be no army. Getcher fake RAW rulehammerin' outta here.

 

 

On topic, in friendly games, take 'em anyways. Who cares? Let GW sort out the Tournie scene for now, or your FLGS. If you find "That Guy" at your gaming store and he -insists- you play with the "upgraded" DH Codex (no allies), then just do it and curbstomp 'em. :P

 

If anyone can deal with (debatable) adversity like this, you DA boys can. Stiff upper lip, chaps!

Thank you very much, you just fell into my trap. So anyone wishing to use the DH or WH codex can't now. This just proves that things are missing in the codex. Since it is in the paper codex and these codex are not updates but just paper codex on PDF form now, the allies rules are missing, just like the FOC.

 

But is there anyone really here that assinine that they wouldn't let anyone use the DH or WH paper codex anyway? Is anyone here really going to use the DH or WH codex now that it is in PDF and didn't use it in paper format?

[Hfran Morkai]

But is there anyone really here that assinine that they wouldn't let anyone use the DH or WH paper codex anyway? Is anyone here really going to use the DH or WH codex now that it is in PDF and didn't use it in paper format?

 

I might use the Witch Hunters one as I didn't pick up a copy before it was no longer available. I only want it for Apocalypse battles as stand in Sisters of Silence anyway.

 

And Tournament organizers will do whatever they please, likely looking at the PDFs and demanding they be used, due to being a "newer document"

[EPK]

Besides, nowhere in any printed fluff that I have found on the DA can I see a blanket statement that says: "thou shalt not combine Unforgiven forces with Grey Knights". :).

 

This might be somewhat off topic at this point...

 

But I'd also add that the Ordo Malleus, who the Grey Knights play Chamber Militant to, are specialized with taking care of "The Threat Beyond", ie. Daemonic related issues. We can therefore assume that the DA might indeed tolerate the presence of the Grey Knights - perhaps even welcome their expertise - if they are up against something from the Warp.

 

In addition the Unforgiven also do not seem to have a problem with being represented in the Deathwatch of the Ordo Xenos.

 

So, though those in the Inner Circle may be weary of the Inquisition in general, I don't believe the Unforgiven as a whole would outright refuse to work alongside them - in matters that don't directly relate to the Fallen of course.

 

Now if the Ordo Hereticus comes a knocking at the Rock, than there might be reason for concern - they are the branch that deals with heresy after all.

[HsojVvad]

But is there anyone really here that assinine that they wouldn't let anyone use the DH or WH paper codex anyway? Is anyone here really going to use the DH or WH codex now that it is in PDF and didn't use it in paper format?

 

I might use the Witch Hunters one as I didn't pick up a copy before it was no longer available. I only want it for Apocalypse battles as stand in Sisters of Silence anyway.

 

And Tournament organizers will do whatever they please, likely looking at the PDFs and demanding they be used, due to being a "newer document"

Just because it's a newer document dosn't mean it's the correct one. If GW admits there are errors and stuff was left out, how can it be forced apon someone then? Also not everyone has access to get these PDF's they are not avaliable to everyone. What if someone dosn't want to sign up with GW? Then they can't get the PDF. I havn't signed up with GW for the longest time, and was still able to play their games. That is like saying if you want to play as DH or WH you have to sing up with GW now to do so. That is not right or fair.

[Hfran Morkai]

Just because it's a newer document dosn't mean it's the correct one. If GW admits there are errors and stuff was left out, how can it be forced apon someone then? Also not everyone has access to get these PDF's they are not avaliable to everyone. What if someone dosn't want to sign up with GW? Then they can't get the PDF. I havn't signed up with GW for the longest time, and was still able to play their games. That is like saying if you want to play as DH or WH you have to sing up with GW now to do so. That is not right or fair.

 

Not disagreeing with your point, however GW has made alterations to one of it's products, though they mentioned nothing about the amendments.

 

BA players had it rough for a while with a PDF codex, seems GW didn't realize it really was an issue.

 

Unfortunately life isn't fair and sometimes isn't right but to be perfectly honest at least things that really matter to me are right.

[FerociousBeast]

The PDF does NOT trump the printed codex.

 

The PDF is a convenient copy OF the printed codex. The bound codex that you've been using for years is no less authoritative now that the PDF is out.

 

That's what common sense says, and that's also what GW's customer service said. There's a link in the similar thread in the Warseer rumor forum.

[Hfran Morkai]

Ask five people at Customer Services and you'll get nine different answers. Just because they work for GW doesn't mean that they know exactly how the game runs in the finest intricacy.

 

So my third edition SW codex is good to roll out? How about laws with amendments, do I obey the original law or the changed one? Just because they didn't have a huge announcement doesn't mean that it is not the version they want you to run.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Gentlemen... let's not sidetrack here... Issue here is DA (DW especially) without GK/WH allies. Discussion here is assuming new pdf takes out allies...

whether Codex trumps PDF or PDF trumps is inconsequential to the matter at hand.

[HsojVvad]

Gentlemen... let's not sidetrack here... Issue here is DA (DW especially) without GK/WH allies. Discussion here is assuming new pdf takes out allies...

whether Codex trumps PDF or PDF trumps is inconsequential to the matter at hand.

Well I might not be the smartest here, but if CL is assuming that the new PDF takes out allies, why is this here? This should be locked since DA can't take allies now.

 

But please tell me something, if allies are gone, why does it say in the codex on the 2nd page "Another strength of the Daemonhunters army list is the ease with

which it can be integrated with existing armies. If you already

have an Imperial army such as the Space Marines or Imperial

Guard, it can easily be incorporated into the Daemonhunters list."

 

Hmmm.... reading this, it dosn't sound like allies is taken out now is it?

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Gentlemen... let's not sidetrack here... Issue here is DA (DW especially) without GK/WH allies. Discussion here is assuming new pdf takes out allies...

whether Codex trumps PDF or PDF trumps is inconsequential to the matter at hand.

Well I might not be the smartest here, but if CL is assuming that the new PDF takes out allies, why is this here? This should be locked since DA can't take allies now.

 

 

Well thsi discussion is about DA(mainly DW ) players trying to cope with the loss of an asset, the GK grand master... Many (me included) DW players used to field a GK GM as second HQ.. It's was like a souped up Librarian...

[HsojVvad]

@ Chapter Lucifer, I can understand this is trying to help cope DA players loosing an aset, but what about the part I quoted? How can that be loosing an asset when it specifies that another SM army can still use the DH codex. So to me, this to me, a DA player can still use the DH or WH codex.

 

If we are to assume that they can't, then the DH or WH player can't field an army at all since there is no FOC in there at all. So that would mean DA, DH and WH player can't field nothing at all then.