Barely Winning

[Burningblood]

Ok So I tried out a new list against Hiamlar- using the Sanguinor for the first time. I was going for a bit of mad synergy- that never worked out.

A real problem is that I more or less tailored the list to what I was expecting him to throw at me- that is sort of a MEQ Leafblower list with lots of armor and sternguard and Pedro Cantor. He didn't bring that list. He brought lots of horde liquifying devastators (3 squads), vanguard veterans, the UM Chief Librarian (wicked cool model),lots of dreads, several tactical squads, and his scout snipers. We will post pics shortly. Some of them are just funny.

I wont give a turn by turn, but I will give a synopsis-

My list:

HQ- Sanguinor- 275 Reclusiarch- terminator armor combi melta-170

Elites:

Sanguinary priests-x2-jp/pw,hf-150

Assault terminators- x5, x2 th/ss-210 LRC trans-260 = 470

Sternguard veterans- x6 veterans, x4 combi meltas, heavy flamer, drop pod-215

Troops:

Assault Squad- x10 marines, x3 ip, pf-260

Assault squad- x10 marines, x2 melta, pp pf, drop pod- 250

Assault squad- x10 marines, x2 melta, pf ip- 250

Total 2,000 points

 

Sanguinor (portrayed by my astorath model) gives the blessing to the terminator sergent. This proves useless because he never gets into combat. Niether does the rest of that squad, or the Reclusiarch.

Sanguinor shows how much of a bully he really is in the second turn and goes after my opponent's scout snipers. They tie him up for three turns but it was really funny watching them die. My assault squad in the drop pod nearly wiped out one of his tactical squads upon landing due to lucky rolls. Sadly it was dawn of war and I had to go first turn so I lost some of my anti dread capability right there.

The vanguard and Tigirius (spelling?) were nasty- and really hurt my army. But while they were doing that, Sang was cleaning up half the board on the other side of the table. My assault squad with the sanguinary priest managed to tangle with both the Tigirius led vangaurd and a dreadnought without being utterly destroyed (the sergent and the sang priest were left) while the termies hid behind a wall from all those plasma cannons. It was rough. I thougt I was loosing, I really did.

Finally, after all of that madness with the Vanguard/Tigirius, the sergent and his sanguinary priest friend went after the plasma devastators and managed to kill them all on the charge. At this point, turn 7- I had ONE terminator left, my two sang priests, the sergent and the sanguinor.

He had One dread left, a tactical squad and a devastator squad left. I had him by ONE killpoint.

rough. I finally won agaisnt Hiamlar- but I didnt really feel as though I had won. I mean, the Sanguinor was off hiding, my army was smashed to pieces, and he still had the ability to take me out. Brutal.

On the other hand, I won a game! Broke the loosing streak! Now, if I win another, we call that a "winning streak" to paraphrase my favorite sports movie.

 

Note- I should have gone with the Mephiston version of the list in which every sergent had meltabombs!

[Leonaides]

I assume that his devs had plasma cannons?

 

You probably should have deep struck the LRC with the termies in it close enough to his army that if it got toasted you could still charge afterwards, or if it didnt get toasted you had a choice of targets to head for... A 250-odd point expendabel drop-pod may be steep, but its better than having your Assault Terms hiding behind a wall cos they cant get to the enemy to kill them.

 

But congrats on the win - my dodigest one enver was a 2k game vs eldar. end of turn 5 i had awoudned chaplain and a single DC trooper hiding in the corner of a ruin where they couldnt be targetted and his army was alsmot untouched. But I won cos I had the objective with me (it was the seek and retrieve mission from 3rd ed I think). I felt soooo dirty, and I still occasionally appologise to him

[Burningblood]

That's great.

My first BT game was much the same way. I thought I had lost but it turned out to be a win against the vile space elves. Although it was really funny seeing my 15 strong crusader squad charge into the faces of a squad of guardians and rip them apart on the charge. Then the next turn they got melta'd pretty badly by that unit that has all melta guns for weapons, but they still managed to rip them apart too.

[Brother-Captain Devlonir]

My first BA win with the new Dex was similar as well.

 

Versus 'Nids I got totally ripped apart by his army (His Carnifex slaughtered my DC and his Hive Tyrant killed Dante + RAS in 2-3 turns.. stupid Whip meant Hit and Run was useless)

 

But, in the end (it was a 2 control points mission) I won because I still had 2 tact marines uncontested on the objective near me (They had slaughtered some Hormugaunts with a combat squad-counter charge tactic and were just able to put the last wound on the 'fex with a lot of luck before he could charge them) While in the last turn before it I just tank shocked his Genestealers off the objective he was holding with my Rhino which he imobilized before but I got the lucky 6 roll for the self repair.

 

And then I ended the game with a lucky end-of-game roll. One more turn and I would have lost that one.

[Hialmar]

Actually only one of my Devastator Squads had Plasma Cannons the other two had one with 2 ML/2 Lascannons and the third was just 3 Heavy Bolters with a single multi-melta thrown in because my other Heavy Bolters were being used in another game. The list was not optimized to do anything but was just models I threw together.

 

It was a fun, bloody game but Burningblood forgot a couple of key details. Not only was he down to just 4 models but the Scouts had taken off all of the Sanguinor's wounds but one and the Reclusiarch also was down to just a single wound. It was close in the end, and before the remants of his force could hide in complete safety he had to withstand a round of shooting at the end which after soome nailbiting he survived by dint of some invulnerable and/or cover saves. The Sanguinor took a blast of the multi-melta that his invulnerable saved him before hescurried off to hide and his wounded Reclusiarch, a Sanguinary Priest and the remaining Terminator from his Assault Squad Were blasted by Heavy Bolters, Multimelta, Bolters and a Krak Missile beofre they were able to get completely into hiding.

 

The Sanguinor escaping from the battle with the Scouts by the skin of his teeth was the classic moment for me. The look on Burningblood's face after the Sanguinor charged the Scouts on the second turn and managed to kill just the one scout was pretty priceless. The Scouts hanging in there every turn against him and slowly bleeding him as he killed a model or three a turn was fairly epic. Keeping the Sanguinor tied up for 4 turns with Sniper Rifle armed Scouts at least earns them honorable mention as men of the match.

 

Tigurious and the Vanguard also did a credible job, especially the Sergeant with the Relic Blade, as did the sole survivor of the 1st tactical Squad. That Veteran Sergeant stayed around until turn 5 before finally being gunned down. Ultimately my Plasma-Cannon Armed Devastators did their usual standout job and were my MVPs in the end I think. On the other hand the Dreadnoughts underperformed for the most part although the one managed to blow up the Land Raider but otherwise did nothing.

 

Looking at the battlefield it may have looked like I was winning but Burningblood, played a smart, tough game and deserved to beat me. The important lesson from this fight is to always remember the mission, and even if you are using an army of blood-thirsty psychos, discretion may sometimes be the better part of valor.

 

Some Pics, should have taken more but as usual I forgot.

 

http://i610.photobucket.com/albums/tt187/Hialmar/TheVanguardafterassaultingtheDrop-p.jpg

 

http://i610.photobucket.com/albums/tt187/Hialmar/TheSanguinorreadieshisattack.jpg

 

http://i610.photobucket.com/albums/tt187/Hialmar/Stand-inSanguinorSneakAttack.jpg

 

http://i610.photobucket.com/albums/tt187/Hialmar/TheTerminatorsrunningawayaftertheDr.jpg

 

http://i610.photobucket.com/albums/tt187/Hialmar/After1stroundHtH.jpg

[SamaNagol]

This is my own mantra when it comes to gaming. And often, in objectives games as well, I will find myself pulling out a win in the last turn or 2.

[Zid]

NEVER kit your list out to "beat" someone... I find people who powergame like that tend to get beaten when someone does something unexpected. My frame of mind is always bring what YOU want to play, not whats best against what they have.

 

Grats on the win by the way!

[Brother Ariman]

Wait the scouts tied up the SANGUINOR for 3 whole turns what were they super scouts or was the dice god mad at you because he should have torn threw them in 1 game turn. Also I noticed you said that the Sanguinor "gave" the termi sergeant the blessing in that do you mean you chose the blessing for him because I thought you were supposed to randomly choose via d6 or other method between sgts.

[Hazard]

Codex just says "Randomly choose". No mention of D6 or any other randomness method outside of your whims. :rolleyes:

[SamaNagol]

Random means you do it randomly. You don't pick. It is determined randomly.

[Hazard]

Im picking randomly. Prove me wrong. :D

[SamaNagol]

How are you making your pick random? It's pretty straight forward. No need to be childish about it to try and gain an advantage.

[Hazard]

How are you making your pick random? It's pretty straight forward. No need to be childish about it to try and gain an advantage.

 

Because I say so. Simple no? :tu:

 

Verbatim it's: "randomly choose". So I choose one, as there is hardly a way that you can argue my choice wasn't random I am free to chose wich Sarge gets the blessing.

 

It's RAW and RAI, nothing to argue about.

[SamaNagol]

That is the most childish and ridiculous thing I have ever heard in my life. And clearly I would be wasting my time trying to convince you otherwise.

[Leonaides]

Some people are just special like that... If you cant randomly assign something like that, you're asking for an exterminatusock.

[Hialmar]

Wait the scouts tied up the SANGUINOR for 3 whole turns what were they super scouts or was the dice god mad at you because he should have torn threw them in 1 game turn. Also I noticed you said that the Sanguinor "gave" the termi sergeant the blessing in that do you mean you chose the blessing for him because I thought you were supposed to randomly choose via d6 or other method between sgts.

 

My scouts were living on the edge as he just could not manage to hit them with plenty of ones rolled and when he did hit a bunch of 1's came up on the "to wound" rolls. The Sanguinor was taking more hits than he was giving in the first two rounds which was just kind of funny, and my Scouts more then earned their keep as in the first turn they had dropped 4 blood angels to shooting, before duking it out with the Sanguinor.

 

I believe he rolled a die to assign the Sergeant but I cannot remember for sure. If not it was a minor oversight and nothing that was a concern. I do know that the rolls for the Red Thirst most of the army succumbed to the Red Thirst, except of course for the Assault Squad with Jump Packs that he most wanted to, as that is how things usually go.

[Hialmar]

NEVER kit your list out to "beat" someone... I find people who powergame like that tend to get beaten when someone does something unexpected. My frame of mind is always bring what YOU want to play, not whats best against what they have.

 

Grats on the win by the way!

 

This is especially true when playing someone like me. I think Burningblood and I have played about a dozen games or so, and I have never taken the same army twice. The one advantage of being an old guy who has been around since Rogue Trader first came out is that I tend to have lots of toys and I try and keep things interesting by taking various lists. Now I will usually just vary a unit or three per game and I just try and remember the strengths and weakneses of whatever I put on the board and then try to maximize the former while minimizing the later.

 

I will weigh in on the "randomness" debate and the "The Sanguinor's Blessing" which states that "One randomly determined Sergeant in your army receives the Sanguinor's blessing at the start of the battle, increasing their Weapon Skill, Wounds, Initiative and Attacks by 1 for the rest of the game." The emphasis is mine. First to determine if something is chosen "Randomly" you need to understand what the word random means. Random is defined as "lacking a definite plan, purpose, or pattern. An event in which all outcomes are equally likely." Selecting something randomly is basically a blind process based solely on mathematics which is why a die roll is generally a good way of choosing for purposes of the game.

 

Once you specifically choose something from a group, the randomness is effectively lost. If you have 6 Sergeants in your list, in order to randomly determine who gets the blessing, you must use a method of choosing that gives each and every one of them an equal chance to be selected. As you supposedly know the various strengths and weaknesses in each model, once you actively make a choice based on anything other than probability, the selection is no longer random. The only way in which you actually choosing a model would be random, would be if you had no knowledge of their various or perceived strengths and weaknesses and just pointed at one and then was made aware of what the Sergeant was equpped with and what unit he was in and so on.

 

Therefore in order to play by the rules, both as written and as intended, some random probability of selection must be incorporated into the selection process. Assuming you play by rules such as WYSIWYG, even your opponent could not look at the models and then select one, nor could he look at your list and just select one. If the rules wanted you to actually select a particular Sergeant it would simply state that you select a Sergeant of your choosing and give him the Sanguinors Blessing.

 

The best way to make a selection for purposes of the game is through a die roll. Given the variety of dice available to today's gamer, you could randomly select via a die roll for almost any number of Sergeants. Obviously if you have 6 Sergeants you just pre-assign a number to each model and roll the die. If you have 5 Sergeants pick up a 20 sider and before rolling the die assign them each either a group of numbers or even assign each of them 4 non-sequential numbers if you really have some time to kill. Basically it boils down to the Sergeant being selected without deliberation or intent, which you cannot do if you just "pick one at random", as you (if your being honest) and everyone else will realize there is nothing actually random about that selection.

 

If you really think picking any Sergeant you want is "randomly determining a Sergeant to be blessed" then if I were playing you would have absolutely no problem if insisted that as your opponent, I get to randomly determine the Sergeant, after getting to review your models and army list. This would be no more or less random than your choosing one and would be infinetly more fair to your opponent.

[JamesI]

How are you making your pick random? It's pretty straight forward. No need to be childish about it to try and gain an advantage.

 

Because I say so. Simple no? :D

 

Verbatim it's: "randomly choose". So I choose one, as there is hardly a way that you can argue my choice wasn't random I am free to chose wich Sarge gets the blessing.

 

It's RAW and RAI, nothing to argue about.

In what way was your choice random?

[SamaNagol]

Because he said so? Come on James!

[Hazard]

NEVER kit your list out to "beat" someone... I find people who powergame like that tend to get beaten when someone does something unexpected. My frame of mind is always bring what YOU want to play, not whats best against what they have.

 

Grats on the win by the way!

 

I will weigh in on the "randomness" debate and the "The Sanguinor's Blessing" which states that "One randomly determined Sergeant in your army receives the Sanguinor's blessing at the start of the battle, increasing their Weapon Skill, Wounds, Initiative and Attacks by 1 for the rest of the game." The emphasis is mine. First to determine if something is chosen "Randomly" you need to understand what the word random means. Random is defined as "lacking a definite plan, purpose, or pattern. An event in which all outcomes are equally likely." Selecting something randomly is basically a blind process based solely on mathematics which is why a die roll is generally a good way of choosing for purposes of the game.

 

 

 

 

I repeat, verbatim(english codex) it's: "randomly choose one Sergeant". So you get to choose. Does not say use a D6, flip a coin, play roulette, use a hardware number generator or Monte Carlo method. That's it. Nothing goes into the random part except your head. This as far as RAW is concerned.

 

It would be rather strange if Sanguinor all of a sudden decided to give a melee buff to devastator Sargeant that's hiding in those bushes with his squad in hopes of getting a cover save... ;)

 

Selecting something randomly is basically a blind process based solely on mathematics which is why a die roll is generally a good way of choosing for purposes of the game.

 

Whoah there compadre! As Von Neumann said: "Anyone who considers arithmetical methods of producing random digits is, of course, in a state of sin". Random processes have little to do with math.

 

In what way was your choice random?

 

A philosophical question...

[SamaNagol]

Yeh good luck with that.....

[Burningblood]

NEVER kit your list out to "beat" someone... I find people who powergame like that tend to get beaten when someone does something unexpected. My frame of mind is always bring what YOU want to play, not whats best against what they have.

 

Grats on the win by the way!

 

This is especially true when playing someone like me. I think Burningblood and I have played about a dozen games or so, and I have never taken the same army twice. The one advantage of being an old guy who has been around since Rogue Trader first came out is that I tend to have lots of toys and I try and keep things interesting by taking various lists. Now I will usually just vary a unit or three per game and I just try and remember the strengths and weakneses of whatever I put on the board and then try to maximize the former while minimizing the later.

 

I will weigh in on the "randomness" debate and the "The Sanguinor's Blessing" which states that "One randomly determined Sergeant in your army receives the Sanguinor's blessing at the start of the battle, increasing their Weapon Skill, Wounds, Initiative and Attacks by 1 for the rest of the game." The emphasis is mine. First to determine if something is chosen "Randomly" you need to understand what the word random means. Random is defined as "lacking a definite plan, purpose, or pattern. An event in which all outcomes are equally likely." Selecting something randomly is basically a blind process based solely on mathematics which is why a die roll is generally a good way of choosing for purposes of the game.

 

Once you specifically choose something from a group, the randomness is effectively lost. If you have 6 Sergeants in your list, in order to randomly determine who gets the blessing, you must use a method of choosing that gives each and every one of them an equal chance to be selected. As you supposedly know the various strengths and weaknesses in each model, once you actively make a choice based on anything other than probability, the selection is no longer random. The only way in which you actually choosing a model would be random, would be if you had no knowledge of their various or perceived strengths and weaknesses and just pointed at one and then was made aware of what the Sergeant was equpped with and what unit he was in and so on.

 

Therefore in order to play by the rules, both as written and as intended, some random probability of selection must be incorporated into the selection process. Assuming you play by rules such as WYSIWYG, even your opponent could not look at the models and then select one, nor could he look at your list and just select one. If the rules wanted you to actually select a particular Sergeant it would simply state that you select a Sergeant of your choosing and give him the Sanguinors Blessing.

 

The best way to make a selection for purposes of the game is through a die roll. Given the variety of dice available to today's gamer, you could randomly select via a die roll for almost any number of Sergeants. Obviously if you have 6 Sergeants you just pre-assign a number to each model and roll the die. If you have 5 Sergeants pick up a 20 sider and before rolling the die assign them each either a group of numbers or even assign each of them 4 non-sequential numbers if you really have some time to kill. Basically it boils down to the Sergeant being selected without deliberation or intent, which you cannot do if you just "pick one at random", as you (if your being honest) and everyone else will realize there is nothing actually random about that selection.

 

If you really think picking any Sergeant you want is "randomly determining a Sergeant to be blessed" then if I were playing you would have absolutely no problem if insisted that as your opponent, I get to randomly determine the Sergeant, after getting to review your models and army list. This would be no more or less random than your choosing one and would be infinetly more fair to your opponent.

 

Damn dude. We just got nerd served.

:D

Either way, I don't think I'm using the sanguinor ever again. He's too expensive for what he does and honestly, Mephiston does it better, even taking into account the randomness of psycher rolls.

[Leonaides]

"It would be rather strange if Sanguinor all of a sudden decided to give a melee buff to devastator Sargeant that's hiding in those bushes with his squad in hopes of getting a cover save... "

Thats kind of the whole point, the Sangiunor has his reasons, and they might not just be, make the guy who looks like he most needs it, a little bit harder than before.

[Wysten]

I agree with the others, just picking a guy is not random. The process has to be impartical. Random means not deciding by personal choice and anaylsis, it means picking up that dice, playing to the Emplore for his devine guidence to apply it to the approate weapon of justice, rolling it and selecting the lucky fellow to unleash justice. If he happens to be that guy peeing in the bushes, then it means that there is some great task he has yet to forefill in his future! XD

 

Cool game though, the scouts facing him off was epic. ^^

[Brother-Captain Devlonir]

Choose Randomly does not idicate choice at all. Hazard, you know you are being an unfair guy and you just don't want to admit it.

If you really wanted to make it random you would have your opponent choose the sergeant. Or have that little kid who is just watching the game because 'the miniatures look cool' pick it.

 

Anyone who claims unbiased opinion and an ability to randomly choose without any aids to actually assure his own randomness, especially when concerning something you yourself invested time and emotions in, is either lying or has little to no self-knowledge. Then again.. some nations are known for a general lack of the latter :-P

 

Back to business though.. This thread is not about what is and is not random. Because what isn't random is very clear.

 

This thread is about close wins.. so let's keep it going on about that please!