Tell Me All About......

[Bannus]

Building upon and complimenting the Elemental Styles of armies is the general build of the army. While there are numerous variations to any given theme, I've placed them in some rather simplistic categories as follows:

 

1) The "Gun Line" Army (also known as the "shooty" army)

 

2) The Mechanized Army (also known to as "the Rhino Rush")

 

3) The Biker Army (a favorite of White Scars armies)

 

4) The Drop-pod army (a favorite of Raven Guard armies)

 

5) The "Balanced" Army (most favored by Water players and employs a little of everything)

 

6) The Assault Army (or close combat army)

 

If you wish to discuss a variation that is not specifically mentioned here (or applies as part of the elemental styles), let me know. It may fit as a variation within one of the preexisting topics or I can generate one if it doesn't mesh well with what we already have.

 

 

The threads on the elemental styles focus on how the army army plays (and a bit on builds favored by each style), while these threads will focus on on favored builds and tactics based on the actual build of the army. In the end, I hope we will have a good foundation of raw material to build upon.

 

So while the elemental threads focus on tactics first and then builds, these threads will focus on builds first and then tactics.

 

What we need to know here is what works and what doesn't work for a particular build of army - the genius and folly.

 

This particular thread focuses on the Mechanized army.

 

Normally, I would post links to other extant threads that relate to the subject, but time is a bit tight this week, so feel free to post links to related topics within the tread and I'll move them to the first post later.

 

I appreciate all your help!

 

Let the discussions begin.....

[Koremu]

I disagree with the idea that Mechanisation automatically equals Rhino Rush. My general Mechanised force contains only one Rhino.

 

The real key to Mechanisation is that you deploy nothing except vehicle targets. In doing so you deny your opponent the ability to use his anti-Infantry weaponry. Everything beyond this is sheer gravy. Rather than belabour this point, I'm simply going to quote from the Tactica Imperialis;

 

An open battlefield is nothing but a death trap - in war any visible target is a casualty no matter how well protected it may be

 

This fact is why 10 man Marine Squads with a Razorback do NOT make your force truly mechanised. No matter that you are moving one Combat Squad around in a tank - your force as a whole is not capable of moving everything inside a tank.

 

The next thing the Mechanised force requires is an array of alternative targets to distract the enemy firepower away from your mechanised Infantry. If you don't take this precaution, then the enemy will be able to bring Melta weaponry (or their racial equivalent in terms of tank busting) to bear directly on your Rhinos, with predictable results. With (for example) a Vindicator in play, the enemy are obliged to divert firepower into it, because of the threat it represents.

 

The same principle holds true for many other options - Dreadnoughts, Land Speeders, Predators and Land Raiders - by posing a more immediately lethal prospect, they divert attention from your Troops.

 

(Incidentally - an illustration of the folly of the elemental xenotry classification of armies is that I run a fully mechanised list that's an flexible as possible to cope with battlefield conditions - thereby either being two or none of these xenotry types)

[DarkGuard]

This fact is why 10 man Marine Squads with a Razorback do NOT make your force truly mechanised. No matter that you are moving one Combat Squad around in a tank - your force as a whole is not capable of moving everything inside a tank.

 

I kind of agree and disagree with this....

 

Yes you can't mount up the entire squad in one tank, making your army completely mechanised. However, I do feel that a mech list label does apply to those who utilise 10 man Tactical Squads and Razorbacks, or the odd unit without an AV value. Take my list for example, which at my LGS is considered a Mechanised Marine army. Yet I normally have a 10 man Tactical Squad with plasma cannon and Razorback. I rarely combat squad them, instead placing them in a commanding view of the battlefield, often on an objective, able to support my mech advance.

 

Yet I still use two big squads in Rhinos, (Sternguard and Tactical Squad), and 2 Vindicators, plus a Dread and Land Speeder. I consider myself a mech player, and the reason why is that I feel a mech army is one that is able to put out a large amount of AV units, often mounting its infantry. So for example I present 7 vehicles to my opponent, flooding his choices and target selection. The fact he can shoot my plasma cannon squad or small Scout squad doesn't bother me, if he shoots them he isn't shooting the rest of my army.

 

Maybe my style with a couple of non-AV units being deployed (like Attack Bikes, Scouts, the odd big Tactical Squad etc) could be called 'light-mech', or 'semi-mech'. I still agree with Koremu on general tactics, but feel that in some cases mounting up 'defensive' squads in mech just so they don't get shot by the odd starcannon limits their effectiveness. One glancing hit on that Rhino and you're not firing out the top hatch, neither are you firing that heavy weapon when you disembark.

 

Of course if I'm technically playing balanced I'll go to that thread :D

[Koremu]

feel that in some cases mounting up 'defensive' squads in mech just so they don't get shot by the odd starcannon limits their effectiveness.

If you tried that in my local metagame, you're not worried about the odd Starcannon. You are worried about 48 guided scatter laser shots (for reference, that averages 10 dead MEQ).

 

Infantry being on the table early in the game is a bad thing where I come from.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

DarkGuard, I'd say you're in the right place. A mechanized army does not need to be 100% mounted in APCs, at least not in my mind.

 

My Thoughts

 

 

An Overview

The key to a mechanized list, and the salient point around which its tactics are based, is speed. The benefit of an all-mechanized army is that every unit in the army, regardless of its weaponry, composition, or size, has the ability to get from Point A to Point B faster than regular "leg" infantry. It is this strike-anywhere capability that defines a mechanized force; the fact that the overwhelming majority of motorized/mechanized units use an Armor Value rather than Toughness -- and, as such, are ostensibly immune to most standard infantry small arms -- is a perk. An important perk, perhaps, but still not the main point.

 

A balanced mechanized force must be able to effectively engage both infantry and armored targets with equal ease while maintaining freedom of maneuver (ie, the ability to move about the battlefield at speed). To facilitate this, there are three key types of vehicles that can be utilized to create a wholly mechanized army -- the Armored Perosnnel Carrier, the Infantry Fighting Vehicle, and the Main Battle Tank. A fourth element, which I'll call Cavalry Forces, can add to a mechanized formation but their lack does not impinge upon a mechanized army's ability to fight.

 

 

The Armored Personnel Carrier

The distinction between a Space Marine army's three standard (ignoring the Stormraven, since it one equips one out of six different types of Space Marine forces) are important, since each of these -- the Rhino APC, the Razorback IFV, and the Land Raider AFV -- all have their own distinct roles on the battlefield.

 

APC stands for Armored Personnel Carrier; it is a taxi with armor, not a main-line combat vehicle. APCs (in our case, the doughty and reliable Rhino) shoud be used in a fairly straight forward manner to fit with their one roll: to safely deliver infantry squads to a place on the battlefield where they will have the most effect. Obviously, the ". . . have the most effect" line is dependent upon that squad's mission, which in turn is dictated by their abilities and equipment. A Sternguard squad, for instance, will utilize a Rhino to get within rapid fire range of an enemy unit, then disembark in order to apply maximum, short-range firepower. This is an early-game strategem, but the Rhino is also effective late-game in a similar role. In an Objectives scenario, Rhinos carrying Tactical Squads can move up to 12" to seize open Objectives; as a corollary, an empty Rhino can make a similar dash to contest enemy-held Objectives.

 

If time is not of the essence, Rhinos carrying Devastator Squads or heavy weapon-equipped Tactical Squads can be used to create what is, in essence, a quasi-IFV by moving slowly (or not at all) and allowing heavy weapons fire out of the fire point. Whether or not this ability appeals to a player -- or is even useful -- is largely dependent on playstyle, army composition, and opposing forces.

 

 

The Infantry Fighting Vehicle

The concept of the IFV is that of a hybrid, which by extension means that it will unfortunately fall under the "jack of all trades, master of none" sobriquet. The Razorback IFV is capable of multiple a multitude of weapon choices, which gives an Astartes commander a wide array of options for use against a similarly wide array of potential threats, including the anti-tank role which is traditionally the role of other Main Battle Tanks (MBTs). Razorbacks, but their very nature, usually take a more sedate approach to combat than do Rhinos; they move slowly, laying down fire from their turreted weaponry while simultaneously providing protected transport for a small infantry force. And herein lies the cardinal difference in roles between the APC and IFV that many people forget (or else never learn): Rhinos are transports. Razorbacks fight. If you are pushing Razorbacks 12" a turn, popping smoke, trying to get your infantry dumped off on an Objective, then you have missed the entire point of the IFV. The IFV doesn't support the infantry it carries! The infantry an IFV carries support it. You're paying points for those turrets -- use them.

 

The Armored Fighting Vehicle

Now the term AFV, in all honesty, applies to any vehicle that A. is armored and B. is used in combat. I use this generic term for the Land Raider because it is a true multi-role vehicle. It follows the same design concept as an Infantry Fighting Vehicle except that its armament and armor allow it to be used in the MBT role. It can follow APC doctrine by moving forward at full speed to deliver troops to the battle line, or it can advance more steadily, laying down a curtain of fire from its sponsons with an infantry squad safely buttoned up inside. How you use the Land Raider, therefore, is totally dependent on which variant you use, as well as whether or not you even fill its infantry compartment or not. Refer to the relevant sections.

 

The Main Battle Tank

For our purposes, Astartes MBTs fall into one of two categories: actual tanks, or Dreadnoughts. More on Dreadnoughts in a moment. The quintessential Space Marine MBT is the much-maligned Predator. While the vagaries of the 40K rule-set prevent the Predator from truly being an effective mobile shooting platform (Blood Angels excepted), it does make up for its lack of serious move-and-shoot capabilities by carrying weapons that are invariable long range. Of its three possible main weapon systems, the shortest range is the heavy bolter whose 36" still cover the majority of engagement ranges encountered on the tabletop. This means that even when not advancing (indeed, I have seen many a Predator go hull-down during deployment and never move an inch) the Predator is capable of lend powerful direct fire support to your advancing infantry.

 

The invention of the IFV made the MBT. . . while not obsolete, it is no longer a true necessity. Razorbacks are capable of carrying the same weapons as a Predator, but by far the most popular are lascannons, equipping the Razorback for anti-tank duties. Enough Razorbacks preclude the need for an MBT, but massed Razorbacks have their own downside due to structure of the Space Marine army list (either small squads without weapons, or only partial mechanization as Combat Squads are left behind). The advantages that a Predator have over the Razorback is thicker armor and more guns, which makes it overall more survivable. The use or disuse of the Predator therefore falls to playstyle and personal preference during army composition.

 

I've classed Dreadnoughts here because they fill a similar role as the MBT: mobile, long-range firepower. That they are capable of engaging the enemy in close combat is an added benefit, but at their core, everything the MBT does, the Dreadnought can do as well. Again, the differences comes down to armor protection and weapons selection/redundancy, and the choice between Dreadnoughts and Predators -- or a mix of both, or the use of neither -- is determined by personal preference.

 

 

Cavalry Forces

 

When the word "cavalry" comes up, the first thing most people think of is knights in shining armor or some other charge of heavy mounted troops. The modern use for the term cavalry, however, is not actually that of the shock-attack role of Ye Olden Days. The mission of modern mechanized cavalry is reconnaissance and flanking maneuvers, and in the Astartes, these forces consist of Bikers and Land Speeders. Both types of troops provide high-speed (remember the purpose of mechanization?) attack forces that are designed as harassers. Equipped with weapons such as meltas, power fists, heavy bolters, and assault cannons, cavalry troops find the holes in the enemy line, penetrate to their more vulnerable flanks and rear, and launch disrupting attacks on your enemy that "fix" his forces in the backfield so that you can achieve superiority on the main battle line. Even Land Speeder Storms accomplish this mission by providing a high-speed, high-maneuverability transport that delivers (in most cases) a small close combat unit capable of tying up heavy weapons or meltabombing enemy MBTs. Due to their high speed and versatility in weapon options, Bikers are the one non-transported, non-vehicle unit type in the Space Marine army list that truly has a place in a mechanized army list.

 

 

Other Vehicles

 

There are two last tanks I want to discuss in short, since its after 1 AM here and I'm tired. The Vindicator is not a true MBT because it lacks firepower redundancy; one Weapon Destroyed result, and your expensive tank is now useful only as a battering ram. It has a place in mechanized lists, but its niche role can hard to find. Its main gun is excellent against just about all targets but is short range and cannot be fire while moving at high speed; its use really comes down, once again, to personal preference.

 

The Whirlwind is the Astartes force's first, last, and only stop in terms of artillery. It can move and shoot, therefore meeting the intent of a mechanized force, but is not a front-line combatant like every other mechanized unit. Again, personal preference comes into play. Personally, I'd say leave the Whirlwind at home since I have little use for it, but again -- that's me.

 

 

. . . and I could be wrong.

[Justicar Valius]

Erm, what's that quote at the bottom of Koremu's sig by Warp Angel?

 

Koremu is more eloquent than me and I agree whole heartadly. Pretty much the same with me here. Sadly I have to take one non meched up squad normally but it normally hampers down in cover out of fire trying not to get shot.

[Koremu]

DarkGuard, I'd say you're in the right place. A mechanized army does not need to be 100% mounted in APCs, at least not in my mind.

 

*shakes head* at that point, you're a gunline with Razorback-mounted forward 'point' Combat Squads.

 

Don't get me wrong, it's effective in it's own way, but it's not a mechanised list, because the very point of a Mechanised List is to Mechanise everything.

 

For reference, I usually run some variant on;

 

Captain

Command Squad

Razorback (Heavy Bolters)

10 man Tactical Squad

Rhino

5 man Tactical Squad

Razorback (Assault Cannon)

2 Land Speeder Typhoon

2 Vindicators

Predator

 

Which gives you a properly and righteously offensive Hammer with which to pound the Emperor's foes under your tracks.

 

Erm, what's that quote at the bottom of Koremu's sig by Warp Angel?

If you click that, you'll find it's Warp Angel complimenting me on my conceptualisation of Biker Command Squads - a higher compliment I have rarely received here :lol:. I copypasta'd the essay which prompted that into Bannus' biker thread already.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Two heavy weapon-equipped combat squads buttressing your base of fire while the whole rest (ie, mechanized portion) of your army advances doesn't necessarily break the theme, just as Whirlwind doesn't even though it is essentially a static artillery weapon. Plus, those combat squads can hold Objectives in your Home half of the boards while the mechanized wing takes the other ones.

 

It's a 90% solution, true, but it works for me.

[Koremu]

Two heavy weapon-equipped combat squads buttressing your base of fire while the whole rest (ie, mechanized portion) of your army advances doesn't necessarily break the theme, just as Whirlwind doesn't even though it is essentially a static artillery weapon. Plus, those combat squads can hold Objectives in your Home half of the boards while the mechanized wing takes the other ones.

 

It's a 90% solution, true, but it works for me.

I'd rather take a Typhoon.

[DarkGuard]

feel that in some cases mounting up 'defensive' squads in mech just so they don't get shot by the odd starcannon limits their effectiveness.

If you tried that in my local metagame, you're not worried about the odd Starcannon. You are worried about 48 guided scatter laser shots (for reference, that averages 10 dead MEQ).

 

Infantry being on the table early in the game is a bad thing where I come from.

 

Hmmm, those scatter lasers could hurt. Thing is, at my local metagame I don't encounter this sort of firepower. In fact, the worst thing's I can remember my Tactical Squad facing is the odd assaulting unit, which does happen, and chances are their tank would be blown apart anyway before they are assaulted. Therefore, without a serious threat of long-ranged anti-tank firepower I can utilise this squad in that sort of role. Again, I'd say it's 'light mech', but still viable in a mech list if used properly.

 

Your list is interesting though Koremu. Am I to guess that the small combat squad with the AC-Razorback sits on objectives, safe from harm in their vehicle while the Razorback sprays covering fire? See I've never consider that, feeling that I need at least two big units of Tactical Squads in a game. One I want defending objectives so I've given it a plasma cannon and a Razorback transport so I have lots of firepower to defend that objective, even if it leaves some Troops unmounted. Of course I may have to consider using a small squad in a Razorback, I still get firepower and they still score.

 

EDIT: And thanks for the support Deus Ex Ferrum. Your ideas are also very well written, and I do agree with quite a lot of what you're saying. I would comment more but it is getting late ;)

 

EDIT2:

*shakes head* at that point, you're a gunline with Razorback-mounted forward 'point' Combat Squads.

 

Like I stated I actually quite dislike combat squads and only use this for one Tactical Squad which sits back and defends objectives in my deployment. The rest of my force tends to be meched up so I'd hardly say this makes me a gunline with a couple of Razorbacks going forward. More likely Rhinos going forward with the odd squad hanging back. :lol:

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Two heavy weapon-equipped combat squads buttressing your base of fire while the whole rest (ie, mechanized portion) of your army advances doesn't necessarily break the theme, just as Whirlwind doesn't even though it is essentially a static artillery weapon. Plus, those combat squads can hold Objectives in your Home half of the boards while the mechanized wing takes the other ones.

 

It's a 90% solution, true, but it works for me.

I'd rather take a Typhoon.

 

So much for holding objectives I guess.

[Koremu]

Your list is interesting though Koremu. Am I to guess that the small combat squad with the AC-Razorback sits on objectives, safe from harm in their vehicle while the Razorback sprays covering fire? See I've never consider that, feeling that I need at least two big units of Tactical Squads in a game. One I want defending objectives so I've given it a plasma cannon and a Razorback transport so I have lots of firepower to defend that objective, even if it leaves some Troops unmounted. Of course I may have to consider using a small squad in a Razorback, I still get firepower and they still score.

Actually, the Razorback with Assault Cannon is my 'cunning plan' unit. I frequently take Sicarius, so I can make the unit Outflank. The effect of an Outflanking rolling Twin-Link Assault Cannon frequently upsets people (especially if they flank march War Walkers on a regular basis). If nothing else it encourages people to bunch up nicely for the Demolisher Cannon :lol:

 

The other thing it's fun for is deploying up the board in DoW. The ability to Assault Cannon the hell out of something and tag it with a spotlight can be really unpleasant for the recipient.

 

I'm converting a LC/TLPG Razorback for rear-board Objective sitting.

 

Two heavy weapon-equipped combat squads buttressing your base of fire while the whole rest (ie, mechanized portion) of your army advances doesn't necessarily break the theme, just as Whirlwind doesn't even though it is essentially a static artillery weapon. Plus, those combat squads can hold Objectives in your Home half of the boards while the mechanized wing takes the other ones.

 

It's a 90% solution, true, but it works for me.

I'd rather take a Typhoon.

 

So much for holding objectives I guess.

It's much more effective to just use a denial unit on your own side of the board, while using Tacticals to threaten the enemy 'base' Objectives, in my experience. If you do get forced to fall back, it's usually possible to get back to score on a home objective anyway.

 

I always prefer to take the fight to the enemy. It stops them getting ideas like implementing a battle plan or winning the battle. I just throw problems at the enemy until they run out of solutions. Nothing says problem like a Vindicator.

[Ryjak]

As someone that's been mech'd since 2nd Editiion, I have to applaud this thread. Thanks for starting it!

 

First, let me attempt to put something to bed. Some people will think a split Tactical Squad, with one element riding in a Razorback, and the other camping in cover, is Mech'd. Others will think that unless every infantry model can board a vehicle, you aren't Mech'd. I think it's safe to say everyone will have an opinion on this, and ultimately, it doesn't matter much.

 

Personally, I feel a unit isn't mechanized unless every model has a ride. I like to start the game with all my infantry models off the table. It feels like I'm driving up on my target that way, turn 0.

 

Koremu: You post a lot of great stuff, but you make me laugh every time I read you lamenting about the Elemental Warfare Philosophy. Mostly, I think you don't understand it, which is great. If it doesn't work for you, leave it and move on! But for those that like it, you can build a Water, Fire, or Earth Mechanized Marine Army. It's potentially inefficent to build a Mech Earth army, and an Air Marine Army tends to forgo tracked vehicles for more Bikes, Landspeeders, and Jump Packs.

 

Deus Ex Ferrum: That is probably the best mech role and unit analysis article I've ever seen. Thank you for the time you put into making it. The only disagreement I have is that a mechanized army doesn't have speed necesarily, but what it does have is mobility. For me, a unit has speed when it can move more than 12". A 12" move, while great, isn't enough to count as speed.

 

2nd, a true Mechanized army has an inherent durability to fire. Most vehicles are immune to low-strength weapons, and many can reliably survive hits from the most powerful weapons in the game. Basically, a Mechanized Army = Mobility and Durability.

 

Finally, I recommend from now on we use Ferrum's categories for defining units: APC, IFC, MBT, AFV, CAV and ARTY, for "Artillery". Both the Vindicator and Whirlwind are really Mechanized Artillery, which is why Space Marines have them.

 

Artillery, by it's nature, forms a supporting roll, and a Mechanized army can benifit from this support. I've used two Vindicators for years, and they're an integral part to my army. Mostly, they just draw fire and die, but they protect my Rhinos while they get into position, and sometimes they even blow big holes in enemy units.

 

Now, what we really need is an article on building and using an army in these terms...

[Koremu]

Koremu: You post a lot of great stuff, but you make me laugh every time I read you lamenting about the Elemental Warfare Philosophy. Mostly, I think you don't understand it, which is great. If it doesn't work for you, leave it and move on! But for those that like it, you can build a Water, Fire, or Earth Mechanized Marine Army. It's potentially inefficent to build a Mech Earth army, and an Air Marine Army tends to forgo tracked vehicles for more Bikes, Landspeeders, and Jump Packs.

Manifest Xenotry! :P

 

Deploy two Companies to Armageddon and undertake a Penitent Crusade immediately and thou shalt be forgiven.

 

Finally, I recommend from now on we use Ferrum's categories for defining units: APC, IFC, MBT, AFV, CAV and ARTY, for "Artillery". Both the Vindicator and Whirlwind are really Mechanized Artillery, which is why Space Marines have them.

 

Actually, if you want to be technical about the matter, the Vindicator is an Assault Gun :)

[mowglie]

I'm with Koremu.

 

The entire point of "the mech list" is target denial. Taking combat squads in razorbacks as a main feature rather defeats the purpose.

 

I'm not saying gunline or hybrid lists are wrong, but they're definitely not the same thing.

 

Mech can be direct (Fire), stand-offish (Earth), evasive (Air), or flexible (Water), but the essence of it is in the opposing shooting phase (S4- has nothing to target).

 

Sometimes including non-mech is appropriate (e.g. JP troops can hide behind the rhinos, Scouts + LSS are probably off the table outflanking, etc), but target denial is the key.

 

Note that there's a more extreme variant which has the AV11 rhinos themselves sheltering behind AV13-14 vehicles.

[Gothical]

Rather ironically, I think Devastators work well in a Mechanised army.

 

No, I'm not mad. Honest.

 

My theory is that yes, having 5-10 Infantry (depending on how you like your squad) deployed on a board with everything else Mech'd up can be a bad thing, the Devastators are rather unique in that they operate from such long ranges with multiple weapons (unlike Combat-Squaded Tactical Squads). This means that in order to be taken out by the enemy, equally long-ranged firepower has to be dedicated towards them, or fast units with good killing power. This by itself helps to take heat off the Rhinos (as things like Bikers with Power Fists and enemy Auto/Lascannons are ideal for taking out the Rhinos but are needed to stop the firepower headed down range), and if they are ignored for one turn in favour of the enemy targetting the Rhinos, they can get to work eliminating enemy vehicles - which is why I think Lascannon can acutally be viable when used in this role, as they *have* to die to prevent the enemy losing their vehicles, which are often their best chance of countering the Mech attack.

 

Other elements are probably more effective on a cost/kill ratio, or flexibility - but add those in as well (supporting your Mech elements) and the enemy suddenly has too much target saturation to deal with, even though the targets are all different types (as it comes down to simply not having enough guns).

 

And naturally, being a Mech player, the Devastators have their own transport. So if the worst comes to the worst you can mount up and support the actual advance with them (4xMM are hilarious for this - combine with a Vindicator and the enemy really panics), so it's not like they are necessarily stranded from the rest of the force, nor vulnerable to anti-infantry fire.

[Bannus]

Some excellent overviews (yes, I'm refering to you as well, DEF). Remember that different players in different areas will have different experiences and results - that is good, really. The more varied the input, the more comprehensive the end result will be.

 

Great job guys! :P :tu:

[nurglez]

I run mech deathguard at 1500 points.

 

Daemon prince, 4 squads of plague marines, 1 landraider, 3 rhinos and a vidicator.

 

There are several benefits of being mech, 1, all my units can move 12 inches at the start (assuming they havent been blown up or anything), and I have 6 units to deploy while actually having 10 units in my army.

 

This gives me a healthy threat range after a few turns of movement.

 

I also really, really like shooting from the rhino hatches, being plague marines I can take 2 special weapons, so i do, 3 squads have dual melta 1 has dual plasma. several times over the past few games i have jumped into a rhino, moved it 6 inches towards an enemy tank, done a handbreak turn and popped the hatch open to unleash 2 half range meltagun shots.

 

Mech increasing the survivability and mobility of my troops, which are generally the things that win me my games.

[Ryjak]

Devestators are a good unit, better than most people realize, but they're competing with all the AV13+ choices a Marine army has. For me, I want to have some high-armor targets to suck down fire which would otherwise be directed against my Rhinos and Razorbacks. It's amazing what you can do with 2 Vindicators flanking a Land Raider, escorting a Rhino or two...

 

If they made a Devestators a limited choice, non-scoring Troop unit like they should be... Thankfully, Sternguard tend to be better Devestators anyway! And you can make them Scoring too!

 

However, I will admit, there is some merit in completely avoiding the tanks and getting more Rhinos, Razorbacks, and Landspeeders. Most players don't have the capacity to handle 6+ Landspeeders and 4+ Rhinos/Razorbacks, but they do have something specifically to handle a Land Raider. Hmm... you could build a 1500 point army like that. Could be fun.

[Warp Angel]

Sorry to be waking a sleeping thread, but my time has been extremely limited over the past 6 months and forum posting is one of the first things to go.

 

1) There's a difference between Mechanized and Mobile - I present to you a Guard force with lots of artillery, Russ tanks, and infantry mounted in Chimeras. Fully mechanized, but not very mobile. Movement costs you a TON of firepower. Compare that to an Eldar jet bike army. No vehicles at all, but plenty fast - more mobile than any other army out there. Period. Dot.

 

2) The goal of many mech armies is to make sure that you're mostly immune to basic shooting and be able to "get there from here" and "not die in the process".

 

3) Depending on your emphasis, the "get there" may be more important than the "not die" part.

 

4) I think this thread is way off base for formulating tactics

 

Any 5th ed army, in order to be successful, needs to be balanced. And by balanced, I mean it in the pure sense of the word.

 

I could go back and point to Killhammer (because it's all there, just scattered all over the place and not as consolidated as I'd like).

 

Instead, I'm going to point to something a bit more relevant to a thread on mechanization: <B> ARMORED WARFARE </b>

 

All armored combat, from the days of Sun Tzu and Alexander the Great's cavalry to modern tanks and APCs has to take into account three factors.

 

a) Mobility

:pinch: Protection

c) Firepower

 

To get one, you need to sacrifice in one or both of the other areas. Armor has weight, weight reduces mobility and speed. Bigger guns and greater ammo capacity reduces protection or speed. Greater speed necessitates lightening the load.

 

In 40k, it's all about getting optimum firepower to your opponent. To do that, you need to close the distance and survive closing the distance. It doesn't do you a lot of good, however, if all you're dumping out are basic Marines and your opponent has a Soulgrinder.

 

So - you need to make sure your army is mobile on the tactical level, across multiple turns. Drop pod armies and Tyranids seldom have any way to achieve this and have decided to sacrifice that mobility for speed and protection. Without mobility you can't rush objectives, get to that next unit that you need to kill in the killpoint game, or concentrate force where it is needed.

 

But - you need protection in order to survive getting there. The easiest way (and the true mechanized way) is to mount up in a transport and get there, avoiding damage by hiding from it. Of course, you can hide from damage by using cover as well (though it USUALLY isn't as effective unless it actually blocks LOS). Speed is another way, whether or not it's a cover save from moving stupidly fast, or just by spending less time vulnerable as you cross the table, you've achieved something in the way of protection. NUMBERS are another form of protection. Just ask an ork player with lots of Boyz mobs.

 

And - when you get there, you have to have enough firepower to make a meaningful difference. That awesome APC chimera that I crossed the table in does me no good if I pitch out basic guardsmen and have to deal with a land raider. Nothing I have in the mechanized unit there is going to make any difference against that target. If I'm transporting vets with melta guns and melta bombs on the other hand...

 

Any army that can't balance these things isn't going to be effective. Right now, Mechanizing is the easiest way to achieve balance of these three traits - whether it's by full armor and apc, armor and APC with infantry support, or partial mechanization...

 

But the easiest way isn't always the best way.