Re-Examination of Daemon Hunters Tactics

[Inquisitor Fox]

Alright, the PDF's have landed and allies and induction are out. Many are crying the death of the Daemon Hunters army. I think they are partially right, however not correct. It is the death of the Daemon Hunters army as we have known it. This is not the same thing. With any change, be it editions of the game itself, changes in the Codex, supplements, downloadable optional rules comes evolution of existing armies and strategies. I, for one, refuse to roll over and die and not use or play with the Daemon Hunters models I have acquired over the last several years. What is required, is a re-examination of strategies and approaches using the tools we still have at our disposal, and what has been given to us in the last several years.

 

This is an evolution of my previous thread on a new idea on this forum: A "Crazy Like A Fox" Daemon Hunters Proposal: A tactical idea from a Witch Hunter player

 

Yes, Inducted Guard Platoons are gone according to the new PDF, however I propose it is possible to get a very similar effect addressing the same need without utilizing Induction. The problem that was being attempted to be addressed was a lack of long range firepower of any sort, and a lack of anti-tank firepower, principly at range. As a general rule, people have always attempted to address anti-tank firepower of the Daemon Hunters through four methods without utilizing Induction:

 

1 : Land Raiders w/ lascannons and/or hunter killers

2 : Dreads w/ lascannon and/or missile launcher and/or hunter killers

3 : meltagun toting ISTs

4 : close combat (meltabombs, thunder hammers, etc)

 

None of these options are now unavailable, and while they are limited in the amount of ranged heavy weapon support, we have additional means to get these heavy weapons that also compliment what we are already trying to do with option # 3 and/or # 2.

 

That's right, I am talking about the free Imperial Armour Volume 2 v1.3 update that's been available for a while now, located here: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-4000...NQUISITION.html

 

In playing Witch Hunters I also have a lack of long ranged firepower (some would say more so because I don't have Dreads, and only my Inquisitor(s) can get a Land Raider). The way I have evolved my army list to compensate for this (besides the purchase of an Exorcist) is in utilizing Chimeras as heavy weapons platforms. Even without the update a Chimera can bear both a multi-laser and heavy bolter, then add a pintle-mounted storm bolter as well. With the update you get even more options, namely the ability to upgrade to an autocannon, and the wonderful pintle-mounted heavy stubber. It also reduces the cost of the Chimera. This not only functions as a transport for your melta-toting IST's (at a very similar cost to a Codex Rhino), but adds the ability to have 3 weapons (4 with the hunter killer) that all have a minimum range of 36" and a very respectable anti-infantry firebase.

 

I have found that two Chimeras, a Land Raider, and an Exorcist supplement my short ranged firepower army nicely by adding long range capabilities and heavy weapon support for the advancing infantry based units. This same theory can be used with the Daemon Hunters, as well as another option provided by the update for even more anti-armor firepower. IST squads and Inquisitors may select a Valkyrie as a transport.

 

With the ability to be either an anti-infantry (multi-laser, rocket pods, heavy bolters) or anti-armor (lascannon, hellstrike missiles) the Valkyrie provides speed, mobility, firepower, and IST transport capability (who often bear their own meltaguns) in a single, fast, scouting package. With the speed and mobility of a fast skimmer even the anti-infantry Valkyrie has the ability to get side and rear armor shots on other vehicles with strength 5 and 6 weapons. This formidable vehicle adds a new dimension to our otherwise mobility challenged Inquisition forces.

 

Also the IA2 update gives the ability to select a drop pod to a GK Dread, which opens up the option of a melta-toting close combat dread. This adds range and mobility as well as several turns of protection to a unit which is otherwise vulnerable to being picked off before being able to reach effective range.

 

In addition, the option for Fast Attack GK's needs to be examined again. We aught to have learned by now that it is not just claiming objectives that leads to victory, but simply the act of having one more objective than our opponent. This can be achieved in either 2 ways: holding an objective, or contesting an opponent held objective. Only one model needs to be alive to contest an objective... and since we are taking ISTs not just for their melta capabilities, but for the transport options they possess to address the heavy weapons support, we can consider using them to claim an objective (just one) and utilizing teleporting Termies and PAGKs to contest enemy objectives with their enhanced ability to deploy into enemy held territory.

 

Is this the traditional army strategy or formation we are used to seeing? No.. it relies heavily upon it's ISTs, transports and vehicles that are not a Land Raider, and utilizes Grey Knights in a teleporting role of contesting as opposed to restricting them to mobile terrain holders. It does, however, put a highly mobile, aggressive, swoop in and destroy the enemy style of play on a traditionally reactive style army. I plan on utilizing this approach myself (just need a Valkyrie.. otherwise I can try it with my two Chimeras and Land Raider) and seeing how effective it can be.

 

I am not trying to say we will be as powerful or better than the new modern Codices that have been released. I am saying that there is more than one way to play, and maybe instead of clinging to a traditional Grey Knight only Raider Spam.. we examined the other options available to us and evolve our minds.

 

Yes, this also means letting your buddies let you use vehicles in the IA2 update. However, NONE of these vehicles are new... they all exist in other Codices and field of play. Everyone is familiar with a Chimera and a Valkyrie and Drop Pods. All the update does is fix the points values, and give one or two new options. That in and of itself is hardly overpowered.. it's not like you're asking to use the new GK Land Raider Redeemer :rolleyes: Even without the IA book, the strategy is possible... it will be a bit more expensive and the Chimeras won't be as effective, but I think it's worth a shot.

[Justicar Valius]

My IST pop open the tank and sometimes they dont kill the tank and so they die. Sometimes they explode the tank so they take casualties and then get shot by the enemy. Sometimes they just get shot dead from far away due to transport destruction. They can't be relied upon to take objectives really so if you still take PAGK you really need them there to be alive.

 

Using IA2 update will help but by how much? I played pure DH before the update but many didn't. I found it very hard to win games against nech especially using 2 LRC and 2 melta IST units. Not many wins at all.

[Inquisitor =D=]

Well Lady Inquisitor, you have made my morning.

 

I'd been thinking on the loss of induction since I read it and even though I don't have any guardsmen yet they were on my list. I was beggining to wonder if I would have to shelve my army until the update, too many opponents know how my army rolls to do much of anything. But I'd forgotten about the IA2 stuff. That may just let me shake things up enough for some fun. :P

 

Well its that or at least I can aquire some nice Forgeworld peices to paint. I do love thier minis so.

 

Thanks, and the Emperor Protects.

 

=]D[=

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but we didn't lose Induction or allying. The physical codex is still in operation. Read the other thread, GW has stated the pdf was in error, as the Induction/Allies sections should've been there.

 

As a response to your essay, I would hate to play that army. I don't even bother with a Daemonhunters army these days, it's painful and irritating to use. Until the new codex comes out and makes the army functional (GK Terminators have remained awesome), I'm just going to play with my Exorcists and their handful of DH allies.

 

If you want a functional DH army, you have to use a Guard or SoB base, then ally in the cream of the DH codex (Grandmaster w/retinue, GK Terminators, Inquisitors w/Mystics). Otherwise you get to enjoy the stupid restrictions and overpriced units/wargear of our codex.

[Inquisitor Fox]

I suppose I can see how it wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea.. but to me the idea of an Inquisitor and Stormtroopers assaulting in a vehicle assisted blitzkrieg of tanks and skimmers, then calling in Grey Knights by teleport to attack key locations seems really fluffy and fun for me *shrugs* All I'm trying to point out is everything is not doom and gloom. It's true that the 'pure GK' list that is most commonly used is the same one that's been in existence for the last how many years without significant change in tactics to account for rules and whats going on? Just like most thought, plans need to evolve and not become stale. Things have to adjust, and it seems that most people don't try questioning what they're doing or have been doing to see if it still applies or if there are other solutions that might work.

 

If people prefer to not play the army until there are new rules, well I or anyone else cannot stop you from playing the game to have fun. If it is no longer fun, a break is often in order or a different army that is still fun. For those that still want to play with their models though, I think examining what works, what hasn't been tried (and just saying "It wont work against X build" doesn't really work.. as with enough theory EVERY build can be shot down by some other ideal paper build) or simply trying to come up with new ideas or brainstorming and seeing if base assumptions are still valid.

[Gentlemanloser]

Not to derail the thread;

 

Sorry to burst your bubble, but we didn't lose Induction or allying. The physical codex is still in operation. Read the other thread, GW has stated the pdf was in error, as the Induction/Allies sections should've been there.

 

It wasn't an error. It was deliberate. And there's also another e-mail form GW stating to use the latest publications...

 

INP, the only problem I have is (as you noted in the OP) our group doesn't use IA (it's just not really balanced, Blood Talon Dread with Lucious Pattern DP? :D), so those options are out for me.

 

I'm left with IST (weaker than playing an IG list), or the inefficent, and very fragil (without any sort of transport protection bar LR) GK. Either way, I'm better off now either playing a IG or 'nilla/SW/BA list proper.

 

Just like my mates shelved Necrons, no one really wants to play my DH/GK. They have no fun steamrollering me, and I have no fun being the whipping boy.

 

In addition, the option for Fast Attack GK's needs to be examined again.

 

Not really. :P They're far too expensive (and far to fragile) for Objective denail. Especially with the worst DS you can get (if you've got a Homer within 6" of the Objective, you don't need the FAGK to contest it...), and no vehilce to protect them form being obliterated off it.

 

GK cost too much to 'waste' some on a unit that trades scoring for a very random and fragile DS.

 

If you plan on using Valks. Then just load up PAGK into the Valks instead. No reason to DS any FAGK when you have one of th ebest fast transports in the game.

[number6]

Sadly, I have to agree with gentlemenloser. :( IA2 isn't a panacea, even it is allowable for use in your gaming group. (It isn't in mine.)

 

Inducted IG platoons brought three critical features to the DH that, lacking them, break the army entirely.

 

1. Mechanization.

2. Firepower.

3. Bubblewrap.

 

"Mechanization" is pretty obvious. GKs are so terribly expensive the loss of even a single model can be crippling. This has always been the case. Prior to 5th edition -- when few armies were mechanized (and for good reason) -- GKs were relatively strong because they were superior anti-infantry units and mostly were only threatened by enemy infantry as well. With the advent of true line of sight and cheap tanks, GKs were rendered more vulnerable to all enemy firepower and also especially vulnerable to the increasing array of enemies capable of easily outmaneuvering our footslogging GKs.

 

That is, GKs used to be on relatively even footing (so to speak) with our foes. Now the enemy determines when and how engagements occur. The DH have always been outgunned. Now we are incapable of using either the terrain or maneuverability to protect ourselves. Only by mechanizing ourselves is that possible.

 

"Firepower" is also pretty obvious. The DH have always had extremely limited access to anti-armour weaponry of any kind. Few melta weapons, few lascannons, virtually no ability to take autocannons or missile launchers,.... This is a crippling deficiency in 5e when enemies have cheap and plentiful vehicles or monstrous creatures. There are only so many land raiders or dreadnoughts you can afford, after all! There are only so many heavy support slots you have available to you!

 

"Bubblewrap" is the ability to protect your vital assets with an expendable screen. The DH codex has never had cheap expendable units. ISTs come closest, but as noted earlier, in order to compete against mechanization, we're required to sacrifice our ISTs in order to demech opponents. GKs definitely aren't expendable! :) Without IG, we have no ability to prevent our opponent from sacrificing a cheap melta unit to slag our land raiders and dreadnoughts, taking away both whatever pathetic "mechanization" we have available as well as our long range firepower. All in one fell swoop.

 

No, the DH army simply cannot be played competitively in the current environment without inducted IG. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. You can't shine :cuss .

 

IA2 doesn't solve any of these problems. Only IG platoons do.

[Inquisitor Fox]

@Gentlemanloser: Perhaps see if they will let you cherry pick the vehicles you want to use? "Alright guys, my out of date Codex is whacked, anyone mind if I just use the transport costs from IA2 to get a few more points? It'll make my vehicles the same as the Guard and Marine ones, so easier to remember the special rules on them. No, I'm not gonna use the Lucius drop pod, that thing is broken. Maybe a fun game trying out a Valkyrie though? Since my Grey Knights are so spendy it's not like I'm gonna win anyway, this just makes it a bit more fun for me" or something? :)

 

Yes, deep striking is potentially risky.. but with great risk comes great reward. I'll try to get a game or two in over the summer now that the kids are home, and see how it goes. I've got a 2000 point list I've been tweaking with to test out :cuss The only downside is that Valks as per IA2 can only be taken as a transport for ISTs, which goes to our Codex stating that "may only transport what it was purchased for" unless your group is cool with "dedicated transports transport anyone, they just can't start in it" n such.

[xa0s]

You know, I got lots lots lots of the GK, Dread, Inq Coteaz, Land Raider, and all still NIB, and was gonna go work on them when I get the Lammies (Lamenters) done (which I'm about 2 figures, dread, close to complete). Now with all this hoopa-loopa about the PDF's (I myself didn't like it tho I liked the French PDF version, obviously), I am wondering out loud if I wanna continue to do the GK and go for pure GK approach. Unfortunately, from what I'm seeing here left and right, I get the impression pure GK's are pretty tough lot to compete with unless if allied/inducted is used. So, I have in the past indulge the idea of using Alpha Legion (as loyalist SM) with the IDH (spys, etc) to fit in with the Legion book. Now, that's out of the window. I went back to the pure GK approach and am currently reading up on the Ways of Water Warriors as well as Liber-something.

 

I'm not exactly 100% sure of what INP's proposal except I would say it's emitting positive mental attitude as oppose to those who are trigger-happy with the messed up/messed up pdfs. Of course, the IA2 is pleasant idea, however I'm fairly sure it would not be allowed in the tournaments in the long run.

 

Looks like I'll have to shelf the entire IDH army I have NIB for a while til the new codex comes out. Luckily for me, the Lamenters are known to be part of Ordo Xenos and am using the BA codex and constructing the usage of Ordo Xenos fluffiness to fit in, like for instance -- I have indulged the idea of using the Deathwatch Jump pack infantry squad to be count as Death Company whilst have an obvious Sgt type be counted as Chappy Lemartes, etc.

 

So I'm basically am not too :) as opposed to some of the others, tho I feel real bad for them lots.