Rebel chapter

[FeAnPi]

Hello to everybody. This is my first post on the board, and as my first act in the B&C I wuold like to greet the community of this superb website.

 

I just recently started to play warhammer 40K using a chaos daemon army (only Slaanesh and Tzeentch), and I decided to build a second space marine army after I finish the current list.

 

I would like an army with a strategy different from the one I use with my daemons: with them I largely use fast assalut units, hit and run tactics, and short range fire. But with the marines, I would like to play something new.

 

So, I thought to a "rebel" chapter. Not a renegade one, rather a group of marines who, realizing how much the Imperium is far from the Emperor's teachings, and how it prospers in superstition and darkness, have started their personal crusade against the Imperium of Man in the name of man's freedom and enlightment.

This chapter (named "Tigers of the Emperor" so far) should rely mainly on ranged fire and highly specialized units; the marines should favour guerrilla like tactics, infiltrating and assaulting the enemy only with their best melee fighters and only when there is not other option.

 

In short, if with the daemons I deploy at random, and focus on assault using shooters only as short range fire support, with the space marines I would like to surgically deploy my units, blasting the enemy away with firepower, and assaulting only to protect objectives and shooting tropps.

 

 

So, what do you suggest me to use? Which characters?

Thanks everybody

 

PS: I'm Italian, so forgive me if sometimes my English is a bit like Imperium's High Gothic compared to Latin.

[Fire Lord Captain]

Probably the wrong forum but anyway, guerilla like tactics you say? Then its Kayvaan Shrike and his Raven Guard for you my friend :D

[FeAnPi]

Thanks anyway, but I already checked Shrike and the Raven Guard, but I would prefer something else becaus with an existing army rich in slaaneshi daemons I have enough of assaulting units with the fleet special rule and rendering weapons.

[Leonaides]

have you considered lysander/imp fists style siege army or maybe a salamanders short-ranged shooting army? Sals used to have limits on assault troops if i recall... Failing that- generic marines, droppod heavy and lots of sternguard to do the shooting- which sounds like a pedro list come to think of it...

[Espada Azul]

It is kind of unfortunate that, for some reason, we can't get either Infiltrate or Scout as Chapter Tactics, which would have fit the army style you wanted. The closest Space Marine-ish units with Infiltrate that come to mind are Chaos Chosen, and the Sword Brethren from the Black Templars.

[FeAnPi]

I considered a Pedro Kantor-based list (my nickname in the local gamer's community is "Pedro", so I thought to a crimson fist list at first, but when I found that they have a Saint Januarius' miracle of blood-like tradition I changed my mind), but still it lacks the guerrilla flavor.

 

And, as regards salamanders and imperial fists, after the chaos daemons I would like to try a more ranged shooty list. Trust me, after being forced to treat 24'' as the longest range of your best firing units, you start to seek something more properly ranged.

 

So there is no way to give the infiltrate and/or scout special rule to regular troops? Someone in an Italian board suggested me to play reflavored space wolves, because their scouts are full trained marines, however I find that chapter's codex too focused on melee fighting to fit my desire.

[Leonaides]

Had a miracle of blood... Not sure that it survived the destruction of the fortress.

 

But for marines, the only way you'll get teh killer firepower you're after is at rapid fire range or less. If you want longer ranged then you simply take generic marines, load up with devastators or predators, a few scout sniper units or tactical squads and a librarian to act as psychic defence. You could even run with a sternguard squand and go with gate of infinity...

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

This whole discussion of Army Lists is a little bit out of Libers scope. So without further ado, something on topic.

 

So, I thought to a "rebel" chapter. Not a renegade one, rather a group of marines who, realizing how much the Imperium is far from the Emperor's teachings, and how it prospers in superstition and darkness, have started their personal crusade against the Imperium of Man in the name of man's freedom and enlightment.

 

This has been tried many times before. What you need is to find a way to write it so that it is both believable within the setting and not your typical clichéd approach, unless you write it out so well that the cliché ceases to be a problem.

[FeAnPi]

So, if it has been tried many times, are there official chapters with a similar background?

My idea was to base this chapter on Salgari's Sandokan characters and his "tigers" (thus the name), giving it a Malay theme (kerises as weapons, and so on), this giving to the whole thing a rather clear flavor that, in the Italian context, should clearly distinguish my marines.

 

And where should I ask a few hints regarding the army list?

[Espada Azul]

List advice needs to be done in Tactica Astartes. This is where we help with Background issues. :)

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

So, if it has been tried many times, are there official chapters with a similar background?

 

Note I said tried, not succeeded.

 

It's not really a GW theme. It's been tried many times by Liberites. It's a very 'my marines are so awesome they think like modern people like us and want to turn the Imperium into a modern democratic society' train of thought.

 

The problem with this is firstly, the Imperium was not so progressive as modern society even during the days of the Great Crusade and has only deteriorated since then. Any new chapters would be created with the knowledge of what the realities of life in the Imperium are right now. Those realities being that tolerance is not a virtue and anything remotely inhuman in the slightest must be purged.

 

The only difference between the Astartes and the common man is their heritage. The Astartes have a unique perspective through being virtually the sons of the Primarchs, who were themselves the Emperors son and as such view the Emperor as a long-lost father figure or something similar. A great man but still just a man.

 

Though without knowing what you're referring to when you say 'the Emperor's teachings' I can't really comment much further.

 

Also I'm tired so I'm starting to ramble a bit, sorry. :P

[FeAnPi]

Of course I have not in mind a democratic chapter. Rather, a totally atheist and paternalistic in the regards of humankind one.

My marines should see themselves not as rebels in the name of freedom of every single man, but rather as agents of the freedom of humankind from superstition. Thus, the freedom of a single, lesser man could and must be sacrified in the name of this greater goal; also, lesser men are not capable of defending themselves, and they must be "protected" (and guided, and ruled) by marines, the true scions of the Emperor.

[RagingGriffon]

Here comes the problem when they are "agents of the freedom of humankind from superstition," and "protected (and guided, and ruled) by Marines." The Imperium is founded on superstition, and Marines are not allowed to rule humans (except Ultras, but they are a First Founding so we'll let them slide). At best, eventually you will be found out and there will be many angry Imperial peeps after you.

 

I like the cultural theme you are mentioning. I think if you use that, and tone down the "rebel" theme it could work. Might I suggest that your Marines do not like the Inquisition, and refuse to work with them? Maybe even to the point of subtle interference?

[FeAnPi]

Yeah, the idea was that they are "rebel" because they oppose what the Imperium has become.

The Emperor's Imperium was a galaxy where there was no place for superstition, and humankind was guided by the super-humans. So, in the name of the Emperor, the ET (oh my, Emperor's Tigers sounds so bad in English as it sounds good in Italian) struggle against the "corrupted" and misguiding Imperium. And yes, they should be seen as heretics, betrayers, renegades, rebels at best; but, from their point of view, it is the Imperium that betrayed the Emperor.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

The Emperor's Imperium was a galaxy where there was no place for superstition, and humankind was guided by the super-humans.

 

In the modern Imperium, this isn't a widely discussed fact, so far as I know. Records are lost and degraded, most turn into legends and myths. Remember that during the time since the Heresy the Imperium and humanity has spiralled downwards and within ten thousand years a hell of a lot of fact can be misconstrued and turned into something it isn't.

 

What I want to know is how they found all this out and how they also got over their own indoctrinated superstitions and beliefs? This is some pretty heavy stuff, so don't be too glib about it.

[Sigismund Himself]

As others have said, this point of view of noticing how the Imperium has betrayed the Emperor's ideals is easy for us to see looking in. Keeping this view from the inside would be a lot harder but not impossible I think. The Astartes still see the Emperor as a man, not a god despite the best efforts of the Ecclesiarchy over the millennia.

 

There are several keys to this though.

 

One, they have to be an early founding. There's still some second founding slots open from the Ultramarines and I think that using one of them here is one of the few times it's worth it in terms of justification. This allows them to have some sort of connection with the Emperor's goal of science and logic instead of religion.

 

Two, you need to have problems because of their views. You've had this with turning renegade but I'm not sure this is the answer. It means they really should be dead. It's incredibly hard to survive without either support from the Mechanicus or the Dark Gods. So they either have turned recently or will be dead.

 

Third, you need to have a reason for them turning renegade. Why have you abandoned mankind? The marines were created to defend mankind and like it or not, the Imperium is mankind. Thinking it's too full of superstition is fine but then turning your back on your reason for existence? A bit harder to explain.