Do you have faith in GW making DA codex any good?

[HsojVvad]

So when ever the Dark Angels codex comes out, (when ever it does, be it 2 years from now or what whenever, please no rumours that DA will be out, This is assuming they are not coming out for another 2 years maybe more.) do you think GW will do a good job of it? It looks most SW players are happy with theirs, it looks most IG players are happy, and most BA players are happy as well. Now Tyranids is a different story, it's a mixed bag of people who are happy or upset with it. Also now seeing the fiasco of what the DH and WH PDF codex are, do you have faith GW will make DA codex any good?

 

I know it's still so far away from release, and who knows if it's even being worked on, but are you nervous it's going to be just as bland, or worse or another bete test codex for UM.

 

At first I thought maybe GW is on the right path, and thought it would at least do a good job for DA codex when ever it's released, but now seeing what happened I am not so shure again. I have the dreaded feelings of being a test codex again. If not being a test codex, I am just woried it's going to be just sloppy. Sloppy writing, sloppy cut and paste. I really hate cut and paste, since GW can't do it properly as of late.

 

So I am curious what you guys think as of right now. Do you think our DA will be the powerhouse we think they should be, or be neutered down since there are alot of complaints about SW and BA on how ridiculous people say they are.

[Monkeychunks]

I have good hopes, my only reservation is if Matt Ward writes it. This is not because he's bad, or the classic e-hate of Matt. I just don't think his style would apply for Dark Angels at all.

His idea of a Marine is a shining angel of death, noble and pure, holding off hordes of Daemons. But this is not a Dark Angel. A Dark Angel is brooding, murderously efficient, and plays strategy rather than heroics. I want the stories to read like an Imperial Armour book, with actual thought in the campaigns rather than a glorious last stand. Show the ruthless side rather than the angel.

 

 

That said, I'd still play it. Ideally they'll make the Codex 'hard' but competitive: Paying for options and tactics, rather than Stubborn/FNP. A proper Dark Angel army should absolutely require tactics and a good commander, and offer rewards for doing so. The newbie looks at the codex and sees 200pt Tacticals, whereas the veteran sees the potential behind their deployment rules and a clear role that they fill excellently.

 

Of course, knowing 5th, the Tacticals will have 4 heavy weapons, shoot 3 times and come with Angelion Darkbolters.

[RayJ]

As long as GW keeps up their current design philosophy, the Dark Angels (and every other codex) are going to get a massive amount of awesome in their updates. All of the armies in 5th Edition have been built to allow multiple competitive strategies while maintaining the fluff behind the army in each list.

 

If you look at the new units each of these codices has received, while some appear nonsensical or over the top, they are added to reinforce specific concepts the chapters are based upon. In the end we find that none of these new units is as "over the top" as they initially appear, and are infact quite reasonable on the tabletop.

 

I am very much looking forward to a new Dark Angels codex at this point. We will see a general price reduction, some extra rules, units and wargear, and without a doubt, the inclusion of the Mortis dreadnought into our army list. On top of that, our fluff should actually get EXPANDED! The fanboy in me almost can't wait.

[Gillyfish]

I'm with RayJ at this point. I think the last few codex books (perhaps with Tyranids aside - I really can't comment on them, not having read it) have been good and characterful. Granted they have had the odd strange unit or rule (Thunderwolf cavalry and deep striking Land Raiders still don't seem quite right to me) but the indications for us are positive. Hopefully they will remain so and the Unforgiven will get a good, yet characterful, codex.

[brotheraziel]

I play nids too & can tell that I like the new dex very much.. It gave to the nids many viable options to play effectively other than nidzilla, as in previous codex, introducing new creatures & fluff.

DA have been my first army since 14th years, so i really hope to obtain a competitive codex, one that give you options to counter all armies around & keeping the good DA flavor.

[HsojVvad]

I do hope RayJ is correct. I am just curious what Our over the Top unit is going to be LOL. I guess we will find out in a few years.

[Darkangeldentist]

I am not hopeful of a codex in the vein of Blood angels or Space wolves. Nothing in our previous books suggests such. Even angels of Death was distinctly different in what the armies got.

 

Dark angels have and do struggle more than any of the other 'stand alone' chapters (ones with their own rules) to find their niche to truly explore on the table top. The dark menacing nature of fallen heroes striving for redemption is reflected wonderfully in the background and models but the writers have never pushed this to be reflected a lot on the table. (Rules for rules sake as it were.)

 

If we get a book filled with goodies and toys then I will enjoy being proved wrong but part of me just doesn't see GW breaking it's past trend for the Dark angels.

 

Even looking at our own ideas sub-forum there is a certain entrenched concern about power creep, whether it really fits the fluff how it compares/impinges on other chapters. This without the input/critique from people who play other armies.

[Brother Rathul]

As long as Matt Ward dosen't touch it, you are safe :tu:

[exsulis81]

As long as JJ is kept 10,000 AU from the project we should be good. I have more faith in GW as a corporation that wants to make money which in turn means more models than JJ's blind lust for doing harm to the DA Dex. That said someone who enjoys the army, and wants it to go somewhere will create a list that invariable does that.

 

We'd be safer in Ward's hands than JJ's. Personal opinion but I think we we'd be safer in a 4 year old's hands than JJ's. A blind, deaf, and mute 4 four year old without any arms, or legs.

[Korloth Darkwolf]

To get a decent codex they need to place emphasis on the traits the fluff shows and provide rules to make this happen on the tabletop otherwise we may as well be green painted vanilla marines in dresses.

 

Looking at the previous codices formula we should end up with the following:

 

- An expanded fluff, with possibly the addition of new battles, events and characters.

- A new unit that is only open to us and based around the character of the codex (akin to the SW's Thunderwolves and BA's Stormraven)

- New rules for existing units that again flavour them to the codex (ie like descent of angels for BA JP users).

- Some decent characterful and powerful special characters

- Some better rules and fluff for the successors (ie characters and background)

 

Me personally would like to see something about the Fallen on the battlefield, the Ravenwing being the best bike force rules wise and the Deathwing being the supreme surgical strike force, albeit with price premiums for it.

[Hellios]

To get a decent codex they need to place emphasis on the traits the fluff shows and provide rules to make this happen on the tabletop otherwise we may as well be green painted vanilla marines in dresses.

 

Looking at the previous codices formula we should end up with the following:

 

- An expanded fluff, with possibly the addition of new battles, events and characters.

- A new unit that is only open to us and based around the character of the codex (akin to the SW's Thunderwolves and BA's Stormraven)

- New rules for existing units that again flavour them to the codex (ie like descent of angels for BA JP users).

- Some decent characterful and powerful special characters

- Some better rules and fluff for the successors (ie characters and background)

 

Me personally would like to see something about the Fallen on the battlefield, the Ravenwing being the best bike force rules wise and the Deathwing being the supreme surgical strike force, albeit with price premiums for it.

 

Grey Knights will have the Stormraven no doubt... SG would have been a better example. Also to OP the PDFs codices are hardly fair examples... the nid codex is great... some people are just upset because of the loss of synapse I'm uber and cannot be gibbed rule and others are upset because old weapon load-outs can no longer be used so they have had to rip the arms off the nids...

 

Also you have to remember with the DA is that this was the new direction of 40K but then GW went back a bit after going to far with the DA codex... I would like to see DW get a bump and the Mortis to come back... some more special characters and maybe a boost to some existing ones.... I also wouldn't be surprised to see SCs from other chapters of the unforgiven...

[Alys Dwr]

I would love a codex that is relatively elite and hard to play with. I say that as the traits of the dark angels seem to lend better to a veteran player who uses tactics and not just power-spam to play on the table. Saying that, i doubt we will get it as GW don't want to make a product which they can't peddle to every 10 year old that walks through the door of the store.

 

A few shiny new toys would be great, some new/different upgrades for some of our existing moels would be nice, but some completley new rules to improve the staying power of our marines would be fantastic.

 

Al

[Decoy]

Just as a thought, do any of you DA folks have worries about being released so close to yet another new edition? Is there the chance that the DA will once more be subjected to "Experimental reformatting" which will lead to a certain amount of ... Blegh?

 

I know that happened last time, and I'm wondering how many folk think it's possible to happen again.

[HsojVvad]

Just as a thought, do any of you DA folks have worries about being released so close to yet another new edition? Is there the chance that the DA will once more be subjected to "Experimental reformatting" which will lead to a certain amount of ... Blegh?

 

I know that happened last time, and I'm wondering how many folk think it's possible to happen again.

Yeah I am nervous that the DA can be the 6th edtion UM beta codex again. Every release that is not a DA release makes us closer to 6th edtion each time. This can be a good or bad thing. The bad thing is that it could be the "beta" codex again wich I think none of us would be happy again. I do not want to hear "this will be the way things are going", but then agian, going by the Ork codex, being closer to the release, wich would be made for 6th edtion would mean it's not so out of date, and be good for only 5th edtion then. At least Orks are very playable for 5th edtion.

[Arvendragon]

Just as a thought, do any of you DA folks have worries about being released so close to yet another new edition? Is there the chance that the DA will once more be subjected to "Experimental reformatting" which will lead to a certain amount of ... Blegh?

 

I know that happened last time, and I'm wondering how many folk think it's possible to happen again.

Yeah I am nervous that the DA can be the 6th edtion UM beta codex again. Every release that is not a DA release makes us closer to 6th edtion each time. This can be a good or bad thing. The bad thing is that it could be the "beta" codex again wich I think none of us would be happy again. I do not want to hear "this will be the way things are going", but then agian, going by the Ork codex, being closer to the release, wich would be made for 6th edtion would mean it's not so out of date, and be good for only 5th edtion then. At least Orks are very playable for 5th edtion.

 

I'm hoping (a lot) that we are the "UM codex"...

The first one released after 6th ed...

 

Even a spot like Orks this edition cycle isn't bad.

[Netfreakk]

I haven't played long enough to say anything with much credit, but from what I heard GW from 4th ed to 5th has streamlined the rules, and cut down on tedious abused rules. That said, I think GW is going in the right direction. If we are towards the end of the 5th edition cycle and are made for 6th, I believe if they keep heading in this direction of steamlined general rules and codices with special army rules we can still have a competitive army in 6th.

 

I'm hoping for as people has commented much on, the inclusion of more special rules, special weapons, new units, etc...

 

As far as I can see every codex in 5th is playable, competitive, and fun. I hope that DA will be the same.

[Isiah]

As far as I can see every codex in 5th is playable, competitive, and fun. I hope that DA will be the same.

 

DA still are provided you use certain builds ;) .

 

The beta UM comment HsojVvad made was an interesting one as actually there's no guarantee at all that someone will have a erm, 'brainwave' about the future of the 6th ed game, write an examplar DA codex that encapsulates that vision, but only for subsequent writers to say "hmmm no I need to add in a bit more...." and we're all back to square one.

 

However being an optimist I'd like to think the experiences learned from our current codex combined with the developments shown in say subsequent Wolves, BA and even to a certain extent the SM dexes will allow the future DA codex writer(s) to step back and see where they went wrong last time and where improvements could be made next in terms of keeping consistency across what should be common items/units in terms of cost and capability. That's what I'd like to think and would love to be proved right.

 

The old argument there is that the Codex SM will always be the most vanilla/sparse/uninteresting given that named Chapters need by default 'extra' things to make those chapters unique. But, I think as we have seen from the current SM book, they have the capability through unique ICs rules to take on many different hues of Vanilla and besides not all SM units should appear in all marine dexes which is kind of where we're at now.

 

There is plenty of room for extra 'character', units and rules in all books. Just needs a balance and an willigness to develop them in the first place

 

Cheers

I

[The Shadow Guard]

Looking at the previous codices formula we should end up with the following:

 

- An expanded fluff, with possibly the addition of new battles, events and characters.

- A new unit that is only open to us and based around the character of the codex (akin to the SW's Thunderwolves and BA's Stormraven)

- New rules for existing units that again flavour them to the codex (ie like descent of angels for BA JP users).

- Some decent characterful and powerful special characters

- Some better rules and fluff for the successors (ie characters and background)

 

Me personally would like to see something about the Fallen on the battlefield, the Ravenwing being the best bike force rules wise and the Deathwing being the supreme surgical strike force, albeit with price premiums for it.

 

I entirely agree with Korloth darkwolf on his take on the formula for a successful DA Codex as described above.

 

GW appears to be stressing the development of codexes and rules that direct the specific armies along tha spirit of their background. In particular the BA Codex, with a few straight forward rules and a couple of new units they have managed to capture the assault based nature of the BA chapter. However the issue I see that might happen with the DA is the differing opinions on the spirit of our esteemed chapter and legion.

 

I thiink we tend to get very focussed on the Hunt for the Fallen and Redemption of the Chapter. While that is very true of the spiritual nature of the chapter, and should be incorporated in to the rules and background, sightings of the fallen are few and far between, sometimes taking hundreds or thousands of years for one to be identified. Hence the majority of the conflicts the DA participate in are against the usual enemies - heretics, aliens and traitors... Their usual battlefield deployment would not be very different to that of Ultramarines, namely a tactically sound battlegroup of tactical, assault and devastator squads supported by scouts and heavy armour along with perhaps a squadron of bikes/speeders and where necessary a squad or two of DW terminators. Their deployment doesn't automatically mean the presence of the fallen. A great example is the order of battle for Piscina (Storm of Vengeance)

 

I think the DW terminators should have rules that reflect their enormous impact on the battlefield - positive on the rest of the DA and negative on enemies. RW bikers should be uniquely better, perhaps a simple strategic rule on delaying enemy resevres or something tactical. The whole essence of the army should be tactical flexibility and superior tactics/strategy to reflect the ideology of the Lion. Not as easy as the wolves or the BA.

[FerociousBeast]

I don't like where GW has gone the past few codexes, so no, I don't have high hopes for our codex.

 

Maybe it's just me, maybe I just want a more serious and realistic take on things as I get older, but the last few codexes have really just rubbed me the wrong way. I don't like 40k because of the lolz. Never have. But the last few codexes seem to have nothing but lolz on their mind.

 

And Mat Ward is just a really horrible writer. This is besides the rules he writes. His background and flavor writing is just bad. No soul whatsoever. Crud's only a little better, and in addition is afflicted with a serious case of specialruleitis. Kelly's good, but he's definitely one of the lolz boyz, and he's definitely contributed to the power creep we've seen.

[Godhead]

I think the DA's unique unit might/should be jet bikes. Or they could actually introduce the landspeeder tempest into regular 40k through the DA.

[The Shadow Guard]

I don't like where GW has gone the past few codexes, so no, I don't have high hopes for our codex.

 

Maybe it's just me, maybe I just want a more serious and realistic take on things as I get older, but the last few codexes have really just rubbed me the wrong way. I don't like 40k because of the lolz. Never have. But the last few codexes seem to have nothing but lolz on their mind.

 

And Mat Ward is just a really horrible writer. This is besides the rules he writes. His background and flavor writing is just bad. No soul whatsoever. Crud's only a little better, and in addition is afflicted with a serious case of specialruleitis. Kelly's good, but he's definitely one of the lolz boyz, and he's definitely contributed to the power creep we've seen.

 

"Lolz" ??? What in heaven's name is that? :lol:

 

I guess its personal taste whether each of us likes the direction they have taken. I like the special rules, particularly that in the BA Codex and SW Codex. I was a little disappointed withsome of the new units, especially the Sanguinor and the thundr-whatevery-wolf cavalry.... since these seem to have come about out of the blues with no previous base...but I guess GW are also trying to develop new angles for the codexes...

 

Regardless...I am sure when the new DA Codex comes out we will have more likes it / not like it arguements than any other chaper.... we are after all meant to be stubborn! ;)

[Justicar Valius]

I don't like where GW has gone the past few codexes, so no, I don't have high hopes for our codex.

 

Maybe it's just me, maybe I just want a more serious and realistic take on things as I get older, but the last few codexes have really just rubbed me the wrong way. I don't like 40k because of the lolz. Never have. But the last few codexes seem to have nothing but lolz on their mind.

 

And Mat Ward is just a really horrible writer. This is besides the rules he writes. His background and flavor writing is just bad. No soul whatsoever. Crud's only a little better, and in addition is afflicted with a serious case of specialruleitis. Kelly's good, but he's definitely one of the lolz boyz, and he's definitely contributed to the power creep we've seen.

QFT

 

Also if Ward writes the dex you can expect Azraels sword to be gone, replaced tih the twin uber gauntlets of Calimar and for them to have attached angelus darkenus boltguns.

 

I personnaly think the DA codex was a decent codex, problem was all the other ones being over powered...

[FerociousBeast]

I suppose I should explain "lolz". I think it's especially been heightened since the runaway success of the Dawn of War franchise, and the number of new players with video game expectations that those games have brought to the tabletop. "Lolz" is a focus on the over-the-top stuff. Like "LOL chainswords! They're like CHAINSAWS, and SWORDS at the same time! LOL!" Now, I loves me a chainsword, don't get me wrong. Previously, the lolz had to be brought to the game by the expectations and tastes of the players. A chainsword can either be a "lol!", or it can be a frightening shock weapon of the future. Depends on how seriously the player is willing to take the setting. It was all up to the player. The setting could be a grim, haunting vision of an only somewhat fantastical future, or it could be ridiculous farce, filled with that wonderfully British sense of black humor.

 

I counted myself among the former. Lately, however, it seems like the lolz have started to become inescapable, built into the game itself by the designers. As exhibit A I present the Thunderwolf Cavalry. There is practically no way to take these guys seriously. "LOL Space Marines riding gigantic wolves! What's not to love? LOL!" In Codex Tyranids you have the Tervigon--which might not have been intended to be ridiculous, but certainly is, in my opinion at least--and unit-specific special rules in almost every single unit entry. In Codex Blood Angels you have a special character whose stats "go to 11" and flying dreadnoughts and magna-grapples and deep-striking Land Raiders* and I could go on and on. In Imperial Guard you have the Valkyrie, which might not exactly be funny, but which is certainly an example of over-the-top thinking.

 

I just don't like it. I fully expect the next DA codex to fall into this vein, and I'm prepared to be disappointed by it. But that's just me. All the DoW kidz seem to be loving it, so good for them.

 

*Remember that art piece that went around during the rumors phase of Codex Blood Angels? The one with Dante standing on top of a flying Land Raider with the words "Your codex sucks"? Sad how true that thing turned out being.

[The Shadow Guard]

FB, Thanks for the explanation of LOLZ...for a moment I thought I had woken up in a different universe. I obviously missed the LOLZ revolution (haven't played DOW... alright alright I know!)

 

I agree that those units that you've described as LOLZ are certainly over the top conceptually if not in gaming terms. But i actually liked the background thinking for some of them. Take for example, the deep striking landraiders of the BA. I can empathise with the concept of battlefield deployment of these behemoths as they apparently couldn't get to supercharge those engines. They even state in the description that "iit is a risky ploy" but fail to add the bone jarring arrival of these massive warmachines. Personally I would have had them roll a D6 and gain a crew shaken on 1-3 or crew stunned on 4-6 which basically will allow the LR to fire one weapons with the machine spirit on the turn it arrives. Something along those lines to make it more realistic....

 

.. but I udnerstand the gist of LOLZ now! :)

 

taking your view point we might end up with....

 

... deep striking plasma cannon toting jet bike squadrons... :P :devil:

 

... landraiders with dreadnoughts magnetically attached to side sponsons :)

 

... DW terinators with cyclone missile launchers, assault cannon and twin lightning claws.... :)

 

So heer's hoping for Jervis Johnson and Andy Hoare to do our codex!!

[Arvendragon]

^.^

I want DW Terminators with Cyclone, AC and LCs...

And Jetbike squads...

 

Barring the thinking of the "new generation", many of the decisions make sense from a practical and fluff point of view.

 

In modern armies, air support is generally used to take down high-risk targets, which the Vendetta and kinda the Valkyrie (Hellstrike missiles) were built for.

Tervigons are obviously a reference to something like Aliens, the mother-beasts, though I can think of no idea why they would be on a battlefield, but they aren't too bad of a design choice.

DS LRs as above.

 

I kinda like a lot of the unit-specific special rules. They really bring out the feel of a Chapter, and their specialized style of warfare. It's a lot less boring than 20+ players with the exact same stuff...

 

But Thunderwolf Calvary and the Flying Dreadnoughts really hurt... like... WDF?

Sanguinary Guard are alright, I guess, for their "cool factor", and an Angel chapter with ultra-high standards should best be represented by... Angelic armor?