Vindicator vs. Combi-Pred: A short comparison

[jesselowe]

I'm pondering adding a pair of tanks to my Codex: Space Marines army, and it's down to these two: A Vindicator with dozer blade or a Predator with lascannon sponsons. Both tanks cost the same, and they both take up Heavy Support slots. So how do they compare?

 

Mobility & Durability

The Vindicator favors a more mobile style of warfare, IMO: It only has one weapon, so it can move 6" without losing firepower. It has a dozer blade, so it can crash through terrain with very little problem. Finally, with only a 24" range on the Demolisher cannon, it has to move to engage the enemy (unless you're up against an army that's rushing at you).

 

One downside to the Vindicator is that it's easier for an enemy to get a shot at that AV11 side armor, since you'll need to both move up and turn your entire tank to aim at a target. (Solution: Seems to be to drive _into_ terrain to get those cover saves, if at all possible.) Likewise, that 24" weapon range brings you into melta and assault range quickly. To counter assault, you need to keep moving at least 3" a turn; against melta, you will probably need support units to take out the melta threats - or at least keep them out of 2d6 ArPen range.

 

The Combi-Pred, on the other hand, is more static. With three weapons, it loses two thirds of its firepower if it moves. However, all its weapons have a 48" range, so unless you're in a bad firing position, it's not typically going to be a problem. Furthermore, if you're willing to sacrifice one lascannon shot, you can usually turn your front armor toward the largest threat, so it's a little more durable that way.

 

Firepower and Target Priority

Vindicator: The good ol' Demolisher cannon. It's the only S10 ranged option we've got, IIRC, and it has a nice fat pie plate. Combined with its AP, I think it's best suited for knocking out squads of tough infantry - Marines, Tyranid Warriors, Plaguebearers, and the like. It'll also make a mess of any other infantry. Against any model vulnerable to instant death from S10, it might be worth taking a shot.

 

However, against any one model, the Demolisher can only cause one wound. This makes it less than ideal for knocking down multi-wound critters immune to ID - i.e., most monstrous creatures and tough guys like Calgar or Mephiston. Against vehicles, it is also less than ideal; while you'll usually get a hit, and often a pen, there's only a 1/3 chance of destroying it. These, then are targets of opportunity rather than targets of choice.

 

Combi-Pred: 2 Lascannons and an autocannon means 2 S7, 2 S9 shots per turn. The best targets for these, then, are monstrous creatures and tough guys - against T5 and below, you'll be wounding on 2s, against T6 on 3s and 2s. Against light vehicles - AV11/12 - it can also do well. Four shots means you'll probably get a penetrating hit, and even if you don't, you will probably prevent the target from shooting. Sometimes, that's all you need.

 

Against heavier armor - AV13/14 - it's less effective. The AC will only glance on a 6 and are useless against AV14, and the LCs will only pen on a 5 or 6 (6 vs. AV 14). Likewise, against squads of infantry, the Combi-Pred can only cause 4 wounds at best - and most infantry targets will get cover saves if you're playing on a table with decent terrain. Again, these are targets of opportunity.

 

Conclusion

Like all Space Marine units, the Vindicator and Combi-Pred cannot stand alone; they have to work with the rest of the army as part of an organic whole. Still, both serve different roles and fit differently into your army.

 

The Vindicator seems best suited to an aggressive playstyle - move forward and knock off objective holders or infantry squads that threaten your flanks. However, moving it forward unsupported is a good way to lose it quickly, so it needs company - maybe a tactical squad in a Rhino, to give protect its own flanks and give it some counter-assault capacity.

 

The Predator is a long-range firebase. Find a good spot for it with nice lanes of fire and let it sit there for the entire game. It's going to be vulnerable to the usual anti-armor units - drop-podding dreadnoughts, fast moving melta, and so on - so to cover that, you might pair it with a tactical squad built for objective camping. Alternately, a dreadnought with a pair of twin-linked autocannons might suit; cheaper than a tactical, with the same range as the Combi-Pred, it can keep shooting the entire game and act as a (mediocre) counter-assault unit to protect the Predator.

 

As usual, you probably want to take two of either, not one of each; this helps with target saturation, forcing your opponent to split his fire instead of focusing on the more obvious threat. (Three, of course, would be quite effective, but you might need that last Heavy Support slot for a Land Raider.)

[DerekLee688]

Vindi's scatter their shot BS4+big pie plate will mitigate the drift but 1/3 will drift, so have two. I've been satisfied with one vindi between a dread and a land raider. Next, I want to try two vindi's between two dreads

[ShinyRhino]

Just a minor math thing...if the combi-Pred moves, it loses 2/3 of its firepower, not 1/3. You can only fire one weapon if it moves.

[DarkGuard]

It's hardly the fairest comparison, as they both do very different things. The Vindicator as you mention is used for anti-infantry of any size, plus it can also handle anti-tank thanks to S10 and Ordnance penetration rules. Furthermore, there is also a threat level to it. Your opponent would not want that cannon firing at him, and so will divert firepower away from the rest of your army at the Vindicator. Therefore, you always take two and at least a dozer blade/ siege shield on each one to use cover for maximum effect and force him to either split his fire or ignore one.

 

The combi-pred however, is a long ranged anti-transport vehicle, with 4 high strength shots able to easily stop light vehicles. Volume of fire means it can also contribute to infantry. As stated before it's not that manoeuvrable, so if it's in a poor area it won't do well. However, it would be more survivable due to a lesser threat level in addition to long-range.

 

Better comparisons for similar roles are Vindicator/TFC and combi-pred/rifleman Dread, but you can't really compare the vindy with the combi-pred. This decision comes down to what your force is lacking. If you're short on long ranged anti-tank then go for the combi-pred. If your short on short-ranged anti-infantry, or just target saturation go with the Vindy. Either that or go for which ever one you like the most, that's how I chose two Vindys over two combi-preds :P.

[Giga]

Combipreds are generally more effective, IMHO. For one, they're great anti-vehicle platforms, they can reliably inflict instant death on things like nobz and tyranid warriors from far away, they can pop wounds on monstrous creatures, and they're more survivable simple because they can sit far away from all the actual fighting and rely on their AV13 to keep them safe from most long-range anti-vehicle shooting. Their 4 shots are also nice against heavy infantry, as they force saves and may even deny saves to some out-of-cover MEQ. They aren't good against hordes, though.

 

Vindicators are sweet, but not reliable enough. On average, their template will scatter 3", which is more then enough to make its center no longer be over the vehicle you want to shoot, resulting in the vehicle being hit with str5 rather then str10 with two dice rolled for penetration (and the higher picked). Against MCs vindicators aren't very good because they inflict only one wound per shot. Against infantry in general they're supposedly better, but then cover + scatter goes a long way towards undermining their effectiveness.

[Koremu]

You guys obviously aren't talking your Vindicators up enough. Everyone is so afraid of mine that I rarely get to shoot it ;)

 

It's incredible against War Walkers though. Ordnance+5 vs AV10 is enough to reliably put 2 hits on a Squadron.

[Race Bannon]

Not to be flippant, but why not buy both pairs and switch out as needed? Question is settled, granted at cost.

[Ryjak]

I'm pondering adding a pair of tanks to my Codex: Space Marines army, and it's down to these two: A Vindicator with dozer blade or a Predator with lascannon sponsons. Both tanks cost the same, and they both take up Heavy Support slots. So how do they compare?

 

Jesselowe, I wanted to thank you for writing what is perhaps the most straightforward analysis of what these two units can do for your army, from how to use them to what targets to shoot.

 

As I've used a pair of Vindicators for years, I can tell you they marry beautifully with Rhinos. I usually use the AV13 Vindicators to screen the Rhinos for the fist turn or two, then use the empty Rhinos to completely block shots against the weak side armor, form anti-assault walls, etc.

 

Alternately, Vindicators can also be used as great defensive units. No one likes the idea of crossing a large open field with a Vindicator in cover parked on the opposite side. Think of it as a 24" force bubble generator that gets stopped by terrain.

 

Finally, Vindicators do quite well when firing at BIG vehicles without a cover save. Many a Monolith and Land Raider has fallen to a pair of Demolisher Shells.

 

But all that aside, it depends on what kind of army you have, how you tend to play, and what your army lacks. Does your army lack capacity against what either of these vehicles is good at killing? Do you need something to screen your Rhinos? Do you need something with range, or area denial? Perhaps you don't need any of this, and should get some Landspeeders or a Droppod unit instead.

[chaplain belisarius]

good thread! personally i prefer vindicators (i love those vindis!) but thats just me...