Kanis Posted June 27, 2010 Share Posted June 27, 2010 I was going to add this to my Army topic, but I felt this was a whole separate issue, and I really enjoy all the discussion everyone gives here at the Fang. Bjorn the Fell-Handed is a legend since even before his inturnment into the mighty war machine. Reading over his page his fluff and rules make him a powerful hero, but also a great blow to one's strategy if unlucky or not careful. But, he comes at a hefty price tag, weighing in at above a land raider; so, is he worth so much over a regular Venerable Dreadnought? Lets see his profile: His Armor Value at face is a solid 13, like that of the Codex Ironclad variants, making him already stronger than a standard Dreadnought of any sort. His base Strength is 7, and comes with all the toys we love, wolf necklace, etc. built in. He has the Venerable rule, making your opponent re-roll a glance or penetrating result against him if you choose, picking the new result. This in addition to his frontal AV of 13 makes him a very tough customer, furthering his chances of shrugging off a foes guns; however, is one more AV higher worth the cost difference of a normal Venerable? His Weapon and Ballistic skills are both a great 6, making him likely to never miss with a ranged weapon, or heavily reducing a scatter with a plasma cannon, and allowing him to hit nearly all opponents on a 3+ in combat. Though, a normal Venerable dreadnought might have the same chances with a skill of 5 in each, and also hits at range on a 2+. Now the really special rules come into play. Ancient Tactician, now changed from the FAQ, allows you to re-roll the dice to whom goes first AFTER your opponent has rolled. That's pretty frakking impressive if you ask me, because it could allow you to go first, or second after seeing their result. Ward of the Primarch grants our Bjorn a 5+ invulnerable save against any hit against him, increasing his formidably tough form. This is a small, but great option that no other dreadnought has, even a Venerable or Ironclad. Now, the Living Relic rule. Bjorn will make all Space Wolves Fearless upon the dark day he finally falls in battle; however, based on the mission, he becomes another Objective, or D3 kill points if not in base contact with a Wolf by games end. This is one ability that makes for a very fluffy addition to a match, or it could seriously cramp your plan where a game that was won could draw or be lost by this legend. I'm having a hard time in this debate, as a tooled out Venerable Dreadnought is close to the cost of our hero Bjorn, without the price of his loss, but also lacking potent defenses and a possibly game shifting set of rules. Views on this, such as experiences or opinions are welcome. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/205139-bjorn-the-fell-handed/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spazmonkey Posted June 27, 2010 Share Posted June 27, 2010 I was going to add this to my Army topic, but I felt this was a whole separate issue, and I really enjoy all the discussion everyone gives here at the Fang. Bjorn the Fell-Handed is a legend since even before his inturnment into the mighty war machine. Reading over his page his fluff and rules make him a powerful hero, but also a great blow to one's strategy if unlucky or not careful. But, he comes at a hefty price tag, weighing in at above a land raider; so, is he worth so much over a regular Venerable Dreadnought? Lets see his profile: His Armor Value at face is a solid 13, like that of the Codex Ironclad variants, making him already stronger than a standard Dreadnought of any sort. His base Strength is 7, and comes with all the toys we love, wolf necklace, etc. built in. He has the Venerable rule, making your opponent re-roll a glance or penetrating result against him if you choose, picking the new result. This in addition to his frontal AV of 13 makes him a very tough customer, furthering his chances of shrugging off a foes guns; however, is one more AV higher worth the cost difference of a normal Venerable? His Weapon and Ballistic skills are both a great 6, making him likely to never miss with a ranged weapon, or heavily reducing a scatter with a plasma cannon, and allowing him to hit nearly all opponents on a 3+ in combat. Though, a normal Venerable dreadnought might have the same chances with a skill of 5 in each, and also hits at range on a 2+. Now the really special rules come into play. Ancient Tactician, now changed from the FAQ, allows you to re-roll the dice to whom goes first AFTER your opponent has rolled. That's pretty frakking impressive if you ask me, because it could allow you to go first, or second after seeing their result. Ward of the Primarch grants our Bjorn a 5+ invulnerable save against any hit against him, increasing his formidably tough form. This is a small, but great option that no other dreadnought has, even a Venerable or Ironclad. Now, the Living Relic rule. Bjorn will make all Space Wolves Fearless upon the dark day he finally falls in battle; however, based on the mission, he becomes another Objective, or D3 kill points if not in base contact with a Wolf by games end. This is one ability that makes for a very fluffy addition to a match, or it could seriously cramp your plan where a game that was won could draw or be lost by this legend. I'm having a hard time in this debate, as a tooled out Venerable Dreadnought is close to the cost of our hero Bjorn, without the price of his loss, but also lacking potent defenses and a possibly game shifting set of rules. Views on this, such as experiences or opinions are welcome. I reckon he is awesome. Well worth the points. The cost of a similar Ven dread is not that differnet and he counts as HQ as well. If he does not fall then he will do serious damage. But if he does fall, just make sure you have a Rhino full of GH about to capture... Either way you gain an advantage I say... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/205139-bjorn-the-fell-handed/#findComment-2446743 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Betrayed_Spacewolf Posted June 27, 2010 Share Posted June 27, 2010 bjorn provides a great anti-tank fire magnet that could potentially be turned on a small army. in my shooting list bjorn is there to soak up all the lascannon, bright/dark lance, railgun attacks that i dont need attacking my small wolf guard squads. he serves me well. if you find different im sorry but i love my dread. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/205139-bjorn-the-fell-handed/#findComment-2446789 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chodjinn Posted June 27, 2010 Share Posted June 27, 2010 I love him, always have, and the new codex rules make him immense! Just make sure he gets into close combat I think. Not played with him yet, but I want him in my army because a) fluff reasons and :D the forgeworld model is sick, and that's just aesthetic stuff! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/205139-bjorn-the-fell-handed/#findComment-2447315 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skirax Posted June 27, 2010 Share Posted June 27, 2010 I love him, always have, and the new codex rules make him immense! Just make sure he gets into close combat I think. Not played with him yet, but I want him in my army because a) fluff reasons and :lol: the forgeworld model is sick, and that's just aesthetic stuff! I think you're mistaking our Dread for the Nurgle one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/205139-bjorn-the-fell-handed/#findComment-2447326 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanis Posted June 27, 2010 Author Share Posted June 27, 2010 Well it certainly seems like a lot of wolf brothers like Bjorn, I suppose it's just hard for me to invest so many points into a single unit, especially one with AV. But he is truly awesome and I'd really like to try him. I just have a fear of lucky anti-tank shots pegging stuff on turn 1, because even a venerable, warded machine can have Dice Gods laugh at him... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/205139-bjorn-the-fell-handed/#findComment-2447338 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Dammit Posted June 27, 2010 Share Posted June 27, 2010 Set him up in some situations he might get cough in on your kitchen table and see how he fares. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/205139-bjorn-the-fell-handed/#findComment-2447355 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decoy Posted June 27, 2010 Share Posted June 27, 2010 I love using him. Why? Objective games. I keep him in my DZ with my Long Fangs/Wolf Guard and have him just POUR fire into the enemy. If he goes down? Boom. Objective that I control. That is oftentimes something incredibly key. However, you have to make it look like you don't want him to die, and just "accidentally" face him in a direction exposing his side/rear. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/205139-bjorn-the-fell-handed/#findComment-2447391 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantinel Posted June 28, 2010 Share Posted June 28, 2010 He is a beast. Only thing he lacks is an Extra Armour, that is really unfortunate. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/205139-bjorn-the-fell-handed/#findComment-2447829 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howling Posted June 28, 2010 Share Posted June 28, 2010 I love using him. Why? Objective games. I keep him in my DZ with my Long Fangs/Wolf Guard and have him just POUR fire into the enemy. If he goes down? Boom. Objective that I control. That is oftentimes something incredibly key. However, you have to make it look like you don't want him to die, and just "accidentally" face him in a direction exposing his side/rear. Wasn't there this sentence in his rules that the objective only works against YOU, not against your enemy? meaning that if you hold it it's like nothing happened, and if you don't your enemy counts as holding an additional objective? So if I'm not mistaken this little "trick" of yours won't work... Personally I've only used Bjorn once....but then he held against a whole Unit of Berserkers + a full squad of Chaos Terminators + Abbadon! He didn't win, but he keept them from attacking anything else for 8! full rounds of battle (his and mine cc phases..) and killed all the Berserkers and 2 Terminators before he got blown to pieces.... So he kinda saved my ass there quite good. I think it's totally up to your personal experience....do your tanks tend to blow up alot? do you face mech and high strength enemies? If not....you're fine to go with good old Bjorn. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/205139-bjorn-the-fell-handed/#findComment-2447872 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chodjinn Posted June 28, 2010 Share Posted June 28, 2010 I love him, always have, and the new codex rules make him immense! Just make sure he gets into close combat I think. Not played with him yet, but I want him in my army because a) fluff reasons and ;) the forgeworld model is sick, and that's just aesthetic stuff! I think you're mistaking our Dread for the Nurgle one. Er, no that's not the one I was talking about. Are you serious? http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sick Option 1 mate ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/205139-bjorn-the-fell-handed/#findComment-2447874 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeddon Posted June 28, 2010 Share Posted June 28, 2010 Wasn't there this sentence in his rules that the objective only works against YOU, not against your enemy? meaning that if you hold it it's like nothing happened, and if you don't your enemy counts as holding an additional objective? So if I'm not mistaken this little "trick" of yours won't work... That's only for killpoint missions, works perfectly fine for objective missions. What you were thinking is that if the SW player doesn't have any models in baes contact with him than they forfeit an extra D3 killpoints. In objective missions he just counts as an extra objective. C:SW pg. 49. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/205139-bjorn-the-fell-handed/#findComment-2447885 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skirax Posted June 28, 2010 Share Posted June 28, 2010 I love him, always have, and the new codex rules make him immense! Just make sure he gets into close combat I think. Not played with him yet, but I want him in my army because a) fluff reasons and :) the forgeworld model is sick, and that's just aesthetic stuff! I think you're mistaking our Dread for the Nurgle one. Er, no that's not the one I was talking about. Are you serious? http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sick Option 1 mate ;) Yeah, I put the word Sick in bold and made a comment in reference. Sick = Plague = Nurgle :P Old pun jokes, mate ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/205139-bjorn-the-fell-handed/#findComment-2448138 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vorion Posted June 28, 2010 Share Posted June 28, 2010 I've never played him in my army but I've faced him and I loathed it. When I finaly did destroy him my opponent snatched up the extra objective he gave and tied me. Don't forget that his bs 6 means he re rolls misses and his ws 6 makes him harder to hit in CC. If you could put him in a drop pod then I'd start running him Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/205139-bjorn-the-fell-handed/#findComment-2448332 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanis Posted June 28, 2010 Author Share Posted June 28, 2010 Thank you my fellow Wolves, all of this insight is perfect, I put in Bjorn instead of a normal Venerable after weighing all the options. I especially liked the idea of using him as a back-up objective marker in the case he does fall, though he looks and sounds extremely durable! One question though, I'd like to give him the twin-linked lascannon for some extra power, but it's more expensive. Are there any non-forge world plasma cannons out yet, by the way? I wasn't sure if the new Venerable kit might have one. Thanks again, brothers. *gives everyone a round of ale!* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/205139-bjorn-the-fell-handed/#findComment-2448351 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarapham Posted June 28, 2010 Share Posted June 28, 2010 One question though, I'd like to give him the twin-linked lascannon for some extra power, but it's more expensive. Are there any non-forge world plasma cannons out yet, by the way? I wasn't sure if the new Venerable kit might have one. Thanks again, brothers. *gives everyone a round of ale!* Yes the new V-dread kit comes with a plastic right-armed Plasma cannon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/205139-bjorn-the-fell-handed/#findComment-2448359 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Betrayed_Spacewolf Posted June 29, 2010 Share Posted June 29, 2010 if you dont have the money for that theres a nifty little conversion on the next that involes a dread assault/melta/lascannon arm and a plasma cannon from the devestator bitz der ya go Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/205139-bjorn-the-fell-handed/#findComment-2448526 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spazmonkey Posted June 29, 2010 Share Posted June 29, 2010 if you dont have the money for that theres a nifty little conversion on the next that involes a dread assault/melta/lascannon arm and a plasma cannon from the devestator bitz der ya go This is exactly what I have done with my WIP dread. Purity seal over the join covers the line nicley, but I havnt taken a new pic yet. http://i682.photobucket.com/albums/vv186/jay_Spazmonkey/swpcside.jpg http://i682.photobucket.com/albums/vv186/jay_Spazmonkey/swpcfront.jpg Edit He is my Count as Bjorn called "Draugr" named after the Norse Creature. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/205139-bjorn-the-fell-handed/#findComment-2448550 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanis Posted June 29, 2010 Author Share Posted June 29, 2010 Holy Terra thanks for showing me that link, and that picture WIP really show it looks great. I'm going to do some bits swapping with a few SM players in my group, this'll save me big time, thanks a million! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/205139-bjorn-the-fell-handed/#findComment-2448553 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Betrayed_Spacewolf Posted June 29, 2010 Share Posted June 29, 2010 np :) glad to help Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/205139-bjorn-the-fell-handed/#findComment-2449057 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted August 4, 2010 Share Posted August 4, 2010 Heya gents - im rezzing this thread to ask a few more players their thoughts on the matter. My buddy Level and I are considering taking bjorn into a doubles tourney. His list is currently: Rune Priest Bjorn 4 Guard - combis, fists 8 Hunters - bling Rhino 8 Hunters- bling Rhino 8 Hunters- bling Rhino 5 Hunters Razorback - tllc Typhoon Vindy - dozer. (1500) Now, 270points is obviously huge in a 1500. We're considering dropping him for 3 more typhoons, or another vindy and a typhoon and some more hunters or scouts. But, I just feel that over a tourney with 6 games, 4 of which being objectives, his bonuses are incredible. Does anyone have any tried and tested theories? Beyond the purely academic. What have you tried, and what have you struggled with? What has excelled? (and im not talking about once off lucky dice situations- im talking consistency!) Thanks in advance guys! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/205139-bjorn-the-fell-handed/#findComment-2480653 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodgambit Posted August 4, 2010 Share Posted August 4, 2010 I've used bjorn in a few 1850 list. I'm still on the fence though about him. He almost cost me a game when a lucky farseer destroyed him on turn 7 and then had 2 objectives. Not having extra armour, counter attack, a drop pod option and low initiative hurts plus having to push his cost to 290 for the las cannon. Bs6 pc is nice but early in games against eldar and ig with av 12 its not very useful. The reroll to win first turn av13 anda dread hq are the bright spots. I just don't know if he's worth taking over a landraider that would give more range killing power and move out troops. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/205139-bjorn-the-fell-handed/#findComment-2480675 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted August 4, 2010 Share Posted August 4, 2010 Great advice and thoughts Rodgambit- thanks. Keep it coming guys. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/205139-bjorn-the-fell-handed/#findComment-2480682 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Requiem of the Wolf Posted August 4, 2010 Share Posted August 4, 2010 In any game where you face a IG gunship army,the second chance to go first is incredibly important. Plus,the BS 6 and Plasma cannon means that if you roll high enough on the scatter that the template misses,you can reroll the scatter dice too and still have the reduction in scatter apply the second time. So chances are very good that your template of doom will hit every single time. In Annihilation games,plant him next to your Long Fangs so that they stay in BTB with him. In objective games I would keep him right next to an objective in my home deployment area with a GH squad in Rhino behind him and close enough so that the GH can control both if need be. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/205139-bjorn-the-fell-handed/#findComment-2480916 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of Rawl Posted August 4, 2010 Share Posted August 4, 2010 Can't believe there is a debate about wether or not to take one of the most awesome charecters in the history of the game, seriously you younger pups, no respect for your elders lol. In my opinion I would take him, just for the pure awesomeness Bjorn radiates lol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/205139-bjorn-the-fell-handed/#findComment-2480924 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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