Grey Knights fandex feedback and suggestions

[Brovius]

This is directed to Valerian as feedback on his pure Grey Knights fandex which can be found on his blog. Anyone else who has played a game using the list, feel free to comment on some strategies and effective lists <_<

 

It was a 4,000 game, non-apoc. People who haven't read the fandex, keep in mind that you can take 1 GKT unit as a troops choice for every Grand Master, and LRs as transports.

 

Here is roughly what i was fielding:

2 Grand Masters

3 GKT Squads

2 PAGK Squads

1 Stormraven

2 GKLRs

2 GKLRCs

1 GKLRR

2 Dreadnoughts

 

My opponent (using Blood Angels) had:

1 Chaplain

2 Sanguinary Priests

2 devastator Squads

3 LRs

1 LRR

1 Stormraven

1 Vanguard Veteran Squad

1 Librarian Dreadnought

1 Baal Predator

4 Tactical Squads

1 Sternguard Veteran Squad

 

 

Both my opponent and I found the list to be nowhere near as overpowering as originally thought.

One of my Grand Masters suffered from 2 PotW hits by trying to use all his psychic powers. There was a lot of bad dice rolls on my behalf, leading to GKTs dying before they did anything at all.

Stormravens on both sides shrugged off much firepower, as did the LRs.

I was utterly defeated in the end though

 

 

The psychic powers seemed cool, but no other powers are in effect for a full game turn, so that is probably one aspect that should be changed to the current turn. Machine Lance in particular was very helpful

The fandex Shrouding was a cool concept, the 5+ ignores failed saves to shooting (even though i failed a lot of those saves), but i never really got to use the free offensive and defensive grenades that it also granted.

This leads me to a question on the GKTs in the list; with this version of Shrouding, does a unit of GKTs (terminators usually cannot take frag grenades) benefit from it also?

 

All in all, the fandex proved to be very cool to use, and i may need to experiment with what it can do before i can come up with some awesome lists for it.

The fandex still retains the awesomeness of the Grey Knights, and captures their psychic prowess quite well. They still keep their elite army feel, in both list-making and on the tabletop, which is a very good plus.

With a few tweaks such as the fixing of the "...for the remainder of the game turn" powers, it would be a very good list to use.

 

Well done on making a very balanced and fair fandex, Valerian!

[PhallenFoenix]

Actually, I just played it for the first time as well, and my experience was somewhat similar. One game is a decidedly small sample size to make any conclusion from, however.

 

I WILL say, though, that playing the codex actually makes me FEEL like I'm playing an entire chapter of psychers. Kind of like playing Space Marine Eldar. I liked it.

[Brovius]

Makes the game more 'fluffy' for the Grey Knights.

Although my opponent doesn't agree that all Grey Knights are meant to be super psykers, they are among the very best in the Imperium.

Considering all Grey Knight initiates must possess psychic talent, we should, by all rights, have more psykers than the Thousand Sons (since the 80% who weren't psychic are now haunted suits of armour)

 

Since it was one of the more senior members of my local group who i played against and allowed me to use the fandex, most of the others in my LGS are willing to play against it, too. More games should give some fruitful results.

 

One idea that my opponent came up with, was that instead of the 4+ unrerolalble Invulnerable save against Perils, it should be how it is in the Rulebook, but reversed. So instead of rerolling passed invulnerables, we reroll failed ones instead. It could have helped prevent my GM from wounding himself twice

[Valerian]

This is directed to Valerian as feedback on his pure Grey Knights fandex which can be found on his blog. Anyone else who has played a game using the list, feel free to comment on some strategies and effective lists ;)

 

It was a 4,000 game, non-apoc. People who haven't read the fandex, keep in mind that you can take 1 GKT unit as a troops choice for every Grand Master, and LRs as transports.

 

Brovius, I'm glad that you got to play with the Fandex, and thanks again for the feedback. One thing that I wanted to point out was that I hadn't really envisioned 4,000 point games when I made the Fandex, so I'm not sure if playing a game so large might have caused you to have an "unusual" experience. Just like the rest of "regular" 40K codices, the game is usually meant to be played between 1,500-2,000 points (roughly).

 

Here is roughly what i was fielding:

2 Grand Masters

3 GKT Squads

2 PAGK Squads

1 Stormraven

2 GKLRs

2 GKLRCs

1 GKLRR

2 Dreadnoughts

 

Wow, 5 Land Raiders, 2 Dreadnoughts, and over 30 Terminators! That looks like a nasty list (I guess that's what 4,000 points worth of Grey Knights might look like).

 

My opponent (using Blood Angels) had:

1 Chaplain

2 Sanguinary Priests

2 devastator Squads

3 LRs

1 LRR

1 Stormraven

1 Vanguard Veteran Squad

1 Librarian Dreadnought

1 Baal Predator

4 Tactical Squads

1 Sternguard Veteran Squad

 

Looks formidable enough, as well. A lot of Tactical Squads for Blood Angels, and no Assault Squads (other than the Vanguards); did your opponent try to tailor his list against yours?

 

Both my opponent and I found the list to be nowhere near as overpowering as originally thought.

 

That's good; I wanted it to be balanced and just as fun to play against, as it was to play with.

 

One of my Grand Masters suffered from 2 PotW hits by trying to use all his psychic powers.

 

That's not bad though (he didn't even kill himself), considering how many psychic powers he probably got to use during the game.

 

There was a lot of bad dice rolls on my behalf, leading to GKTs dying before they did anything at all.

Stormravens on both sides shrugged off much firepower, as did the LRs.

 

No surprise there. That is a whole lot of heavy armour in both of your lists.

 

I was utterly defeated in the end though

 

Ooh, care to comment on this some more? Can you attribute your "utter defeat" to something specific from the Fandex? Perhaps something was missing? Or, was it just some bad luck? I'm glad that they didn't turn out to be overpowered, but I don't want them to get crushed all of the time either. Did you take advantage of the Teleport Assault rules, or did everyone just ride in the vehicles?

 

The psychic powers seemed cool, but no other powers are in effect for a full game turn, so that is probably one aspect that should be changed to the current turn. Machine Lance in particular was very helpful

 

In order to work as they are intended both Machine Lance and Sanctuary need to last a full game turn, but I could see how both Emperor's Will and Hammerhand could be too-powerful by having them last a full game turn, instead of just that player's turn (basically the current Assault Phase). I'll probably go back and revise that then.

 

In particular, I'm glad that you liked the Machine Lance. I borrowed the concept (and renamed it) from someone else; I thought it was a very clever way to help the Grey Knights overcome a little bit of their anti-vehicle weakness in a way that was effective and fluffy, but not too powerful, either. They can't do any actual damage with it, but can use the psychic power to "shut-down" the vehicle temporarily and render it useless for a turn.

 

The fandex Shrouding was a cool concept, the 5+ ignores failed saves to shooting (even though i failed a lot of those saves), but i never really got to use the free offensive and defensive grenades that it also granted.

 

The Shrouding in particular is/was hard to get right. All Grey Knights are more expensive (because of their abilities) than normal Marines, but are not one bit more survivable. This isn't sustainable within the game, unless something is developed to give them just a tad more protection than their 15 points each brethren. GW tried this in the old codex and failed. I'm not convinced that I've got it completely resolved, but I think that I'm closer than the 3rd Edition codex did. The effect of the offensive/defensive grenades would probably be much more noticeable if you ran more of an infantry-centric (footslogging and teleporting with some vehicle support) type of list.

 

This leads me to a question on the GKTs in the list; with this version of Shrouding, does a unit of GKTs (terminators usually cannot take frag grenades) benefit from it also?

 

Absolutely! Grey Knights Terminators are even more of a force to reckon with than they ever have been (and are justifiably expensive, too). Don't miss that our GKT also benefit from True Grit, as I have written it; those Storm Bolters act as pistols in close combat for everybody; no forgetting how to fight when you get promoted in my army list!

 

All in all, the fandex proved to be very cool to use, and i may need to experiment with what it can do before i can come up with some awesome lists for it.

The fandex still retains the awesomeness of the Grey Knights, and captures their psychic prowess quite well. They still keep their elite army feel, in both list-making and on the tabletop, which is a very good plus.

With a few tweaks such as the fixing of the "...for the remainder of the game turn" powers, it would be a very good list to use.

 

Well done on making a very balanced and fair fandex, Valerian!

 

Thanks much; it appears that I was able to create what I intended to - an Elite army that "feels" right, and plays as you/I/we think that Grey Knights should play.

 

One idea that my opponent came up with, was that instead of the 4+ unrerolalble Invulnerable save against Perils, it should be how it is in the Rulebook, but reversed. So instead of rerolling passed invulnerables, we reroll failed ones instead. It could have helped prevent my GM from wounding himself twice

 

I'll have to think about that. Normally, avoiding Perils of the Warp wounds is extremely difficult you can only attempt to avoid the wound if you have an Invulnerably Save, and even if you pass it, you have to reroll it and make it again! My intent, however, was to encourage the use of the psychic powers that "define" the Grey Knights to a great degree, which is why I spread psychic powers throughout the army, down to the Justicars in each squad. How Rites of Exorcism is written provides a simple flat 4+ Save to avoid any Perils of the Warp for every psyker in the army, regardless of whether they have an Invulnerable Save or not, and you don't have to reroll it. This makes it much more likely to avoid a Wound than usual, but doesn't make it impossible to lose a Wound or die from Perils. Do you think more needs to be done?

 

How about this idea: what if I rewrote it to allow an Aegis Armour Save (hexagrammic warding, anointed, etc.) to avoid Perils? That would mean a Justicar would get his 3+ Save and our Brother-Captains, Brother-Captain Commanders, and Grand Masters would get their 2+ Saves (no rerolls for anybody). Would your opponents say that was over-the-top?

 

You didn't bring this up, but this was something else I was thinking about. Currently, as my Teleport Assault is written, all Grey Knights may be held in Reserves and count as having Teleport Homers. I was considering giving them something more like the Blood Angels' "Descent of Angels" type of rule, where all Grey Knights can still be held in Reserves, but instead of counting as having Teleport Homers (which doesn't help the first wave in the assault), I could give them all a d6 Scatter (instead of 2d6), and allow rerolls of failed Reserve Rolls. What do you think of that change? Would it be better or worse?

 

 

Thanks again for the comments. I hope that you do get some more games in while we all wait for the new official codes, whenever that may come.

 

Best regards,

 

Valerian

[Brovius]

I didn't have 3 full squads of GKTs, as much as i would have liked to, not even i have that many models.

i had a squad of 7 with a GM in one Crusader, a squad of 5 with the other GM in the Redeemer, and an 8-man squad in the other Crusader

 

It wasn't your fandex that led to my downfall, it was my own bad dice rolls in that game. Like the many failed obscured rolls and Shrouding rolls.

In addition to the few times i used Machine Lance, it only did something once.

 

Emperor's Will, does it grant rerolls to both hit and wound, or do you pick one, like SW wolf claws? I played it as rerolls for just the one, but if it didn't last for a full game turn, you could make it work for both, to stop people crying out 'overpowered'.

 

Rites of Exorcism is good how it is, the rerolling failed saves was my opponent's idea, but leaving how it is wouldn't cause too many problems.

 

If you do update the list of rules, though, please let me know so i can print them out again ;)

[Valerian]

I didn't have 3 full squads of GKTs, as much as i would have liked to, not even i have that many models.

i had a squad of 7 with a GM in one Crusader, a squad of 5 with the other GM in the Redeemer, and an 8-man squad in the other Crusader

 

Still, 20 Terminators plus 2 Grand Masters isn't too shabby, is it?

 

It wasn't your fandex that led to my downfall, it was my own bad dice rolls in that game. Like the many failed obscured rolls and Shrouding rolls.

In addition to the few times i used Machine Lance, it only did something once.

 

Hopefully next time your rolls are a little more "balanced", and you can get a little bit of a better feel for what the army can do. Again, I was aiming more toward the 1,500-2,000 point "niche" for the Fandex, but if you can make it work for you at 4,000, then I say go for it.

 

Emperor's Will, does it grant rerolls to both hit and wound, or do you pick one, like SW wolf claws? I played it as rerolls for just the one, but if it didn't last for a full game turn, you could make it work for both, to stop people crying out 'overpowered'.

 

Emperor's Will works for both to hit an to wound rolls (any of either that were failed rolls); I've updated this entry on my blog, and I also adjusted it to just work for the current Assault Phase (when cast) and not the whole game turn. I also similarly adjusted Hammerhand.

 

Rites of Exorcism is good how it is, the rerolling failed saves was my opponent's idea, but leaving how it is wouldn't cause too many problems.

 

Okay, I'll leave that one alone then.

 

If you do update the list of rules, though, please let me know so i can print them out again :P

 

Minor changes made to the Blog, including the changes to Emperor's Will and Hammerhand, as well as an adjustment to Teleport Assault (in the Grey Knights Special Rules section) have been posted.

 

I'm really looking for some feedback on points costs for the units. I think I've got the equipment and upgrades/options about right, but would like for someone else to review the points costs, in particular for the basic Grey Knights squad.

 

V

[the jeske]

Isnt it better to give justicars auto cast powers like warlocks have and give IC normal ones that requier to roll . Elite units like terminators could get a special rule the whole unit casting a non auto cast spell [ranged checked from justicar] or use an auto cast one from the justicar . options are always good. one could have a cheaper version of termis or play it safe sometimes , while in other games take the risk and roll . + the termis have an inv so perils wouldnt auto kill a justicar.

[Valerian]

Isnt it better to give justicars auto cast powers like warlocks have and give IC normal ones that requier to roll . Elite units like terminators could get a special rule the whole unit casting a non auto cast spell [ranged checked from justicar] or use an auto cast one from the justicar . options are always good. one could have a cheaper version of termis or play it safe sometimes , while in other games take the risk and roll . + the termis have an inv so perils wouldnt auto kill a justicar.

 

Not a bad idea jeske; when I get home I'll take a look at my old Eldar codex to review how it has been done for Warlocks, and get some ideas. This would be a good way to prevent the main guy in a squad from killing himself by accident.

 

More to follow on this....thanks again for the recommendation,

 

V

[the jeske]

yeah and the way they are build in to the squads and not linked to the power of characters you could make them different . A purgation squad could get a different one then a normal GK squad . It would also be a good idea[am talking game balance here not fluff] to make squad upgrade characters or "characters" that can be attached to units like SW WG or BA priests/elite chaplains [this would make brother cpts actualy useful , because the way the book looks right now its always GK GM ] .

 

 

Also the list still looks very much like LR+GKT+GK only . Change the purgation squads to either give their power +1 to tank rolls[making them better then auto canons , but still not hurting LR] or change how the psycanons work . link the power to the ammo being used . normal static shots as auto canons , assault hvy bolters or the hvy inv iggnoring shots . then they could even be priced like they are now .

 

the list needs some sort of FA . I would give them d6 scater like angels , maybe some sort of power like Radiant Angels that rises their cover by +1 on the phase they land .

[Valerian]

yeah and the way they are build in to the squads and not linked to the power of characters you could make them different . A purgation squad could get a different one then a normal GK squad . It would also be a good idea[am talking game balance here not fluff] to make squad upgrade characters or "characters" that can be attached to units like SW WG or BA priests/elite chaplains [this would make brother cpts actualy useful , because the way the book looks right now its always GK GM ] .

 

 

Also the list still looks very much like LR+GKT+GK only . Change the purgation squads to either give their power +1 to tank rolls[making them better then auto canons , but still not hurting LR] or change how the psycanons work . link the power to the ammo being used . normal static shots as auto canons , assault hvy bolters or the hvy inv iggnoring shots . then they could even be priced like they are now .

 

I like the idea of "automatic powers" like Warlocks, and I can also go for different available powers to choose from for each of the 3 primary types of troops (GKTs, PAGKs, and Purgation GKs). I'll look at the powers that I've already got in the Fandex for reallocation, and will invent a few new ones to add in. A few to boos the effectiveness of Purgation Squads in particular will help make that selection more worthwhile, and something definitely does need to be added to make the loss of Scoring worthwhile.

 

I'm not sure what direction to go with for your suggestion on having the squad of upgrade characters yet, but will think more on it. I see your point that between the two HQ choices of Grand Master and Brother-Captain Commander, there isn't much reason to select the latter, unless you simply don't have the points to take the GM. I only really included the Brother-Captain Commander because the lack of a cheaper 2-Wound alternative to the Grand Master isn't currently available and was something that has been largely criticized in the current DH codex. The folks participating in the Inquisition project spend a lot of time trying to figure out a good 2-W alternative, and I thought mine was the simplest way to implement it (100 points cheaper than a GM with a few less abilities/stats). Perhaps something else should be done to help the B-CC stand out.

 

the list needs some sort of FA . I would give them d6 scater like angels , maybe some sort of power like Radiant Angels that rises their cover by +1 on the phase they land .

 

For Fast Attack the Fandex really only has/needs the Stormraven, I believe. Everything else in the army with the Grey Knights rule gets Teleport Assault (with the d6 scatter in my latest update), so basically everything comes in with excellent operational mobility as standard, already, and I don't think I'm up for including anything else just yet.

 

Great comments though, please keep up the feedback. If GW won't produce something good for our pure Grey Knights players, then at least I intend to.

 

Regards,

 

V

[the jeske]

I only really included the Brother-Captain Commander because the lack of a cheaper 2-Wound alternative to the Grand Master isn't currently available and was something that has been largely criticized in the current DH codex. The folks participating in the Inquisition project spend a lot of time trying to figure out a good 2-W alternative, and I thought mine was the simplest way to implement it (100 points cheaper than a GM with a few less abilities/stats). Perhaps something else should be done to help the B-CC stand out.

first of all . BC should be the guy who has to buy his terminator armor . That would make him an interesting support unit for GK unit in power armor[no termi armor stoping them from sweeping advance]. Second of all cheapness. The GK GM should be right up there with 180-200 points HQs , the cpt should be an option for low point games , maybe different psychic powers here too ? besides the single doesnt have to be a brother cpt per se. Am thinking more about something like single demon hunter hero , closer to lone wolfs [but with the abilty to join units] . This way one could have GM who cost a lot and can have all the toys, cpts who would be given fewer of the explosvie powers [but more powers that buff his or other units] and "demon hunters" who could have self buff or who could trade their abilty for some sort of model buff[for example either he gets FnP or FC this turn or he uses a psychic power] . GK should also be one of those armies where the use of force weapons should always be open to models . this makes sense both fluffwise[few librarians have the lvl of attument with their weapons the GK have] and game wise[with GK being the "magic" meq army].

[Astrator]

I think the Machine Lance psychic power needs a bit of re-working. The wording is clunky and awkward, as it stands-- it is an exception to an exception, which seems almost guaranteed to cause consternation. "My model ignores Crew Shaken." "Yeah? Well mine ignores rules which ignore Crew Shaken!"

 

Perhaps a better solution would be to borrow inspiration from the accidental nature of our current Force Weapons in 5th: don't bother naming the special rule in the power's description. Perhaps something akin to the following:

 

"Machine Lance may only target Vehicles. If this attack results in a Glancing or a Penetrating hit, do not roll on the Vehicle Damage Chart. Instead, if the result was a Glancing Hit, the target may not Shoot any of its weapons until the beginning of your next turn. If the result was a Penetrating Hit, the target may not Move or Shoot until the beginning of your next turn."

[Brovius]

Purgation squads could get access to something like 'Psycannon shells' which are S8 AP3, as it would cover the lack of non-Lascannon anti-tank, and would also give the army the magic Tyranid MC-killing weapon. It would have to be Heavy 1, though, to stop people crying out 'broken'.

Maybe a Purgation Justicar could have a power that boosts the squad's Shrouding save to a 4+ for a turn?

Possibly even a power that increases the Strength of a single Psycannon shell to 9 or 10 for a shooting phase?

 

I like Jeske's idea on the BCC as a support HQ for PAGKs, he could have a passive buff that gives them rerolls to hit in CC or something. I already have a converted Emperor's Champion i could use as a Power Armoured BCC :tu:

 

Machine Lance should drop to S9, but be able to destroy vehicles i think, or even a S8 Lance weapon with the same effect. The Justicar works out to be 1000pts in the fandex with psychic powers, so we should make the powers worth their weight in points, or possibly ease up the value of the base squad to 170pts.

[Daedalus Templarius]

I may try the fandex in the next game, with my opponents permission anyway. However, I still think some of the units are a bit overcosted...

 

Justicar + squad works out to be even more expensive now, and the 5+ invuln to shooting shrouding is pretty meh imo. A 5+ save isn't much of a save at all. Besides, if you're playing GK right, they are going to be rolling in a LR anyway.

 

I do appreciate the inclusion of the Stormraven, but it has had limited usefulness in the games I've fielded it with my BA due to that 12 armor.

 

Grandmaster seems way expensive, I mean I know he gets a bunch of psychic powers, but he might just end up perils'ing himself to death with that 4+ invuln, but at least that is something I suppose.

 

Also, not really digging machine lance as a psychic AV defense. Blood lance has worked pretty well for me so far for my BA libs, maybe it should just be like that?

 

I'll have to look at the fandex again tomorrow and see if I can come up with anything else.

 

Also, a link in here to the latest version would help :teehee:

[glsn]

For the most part, I disagree with what the good gentleman above me said refering to points. I play Grey Knights because they are elite; that means they should be expensive too.

 

One thing I noticed which might be a mistake and one suggestion which might encourage people to take more infantry and fewer Land Raiders.

 

The mistake - I saw no mention of the Venerable special rule on the Venerable Dreadnought. I'm known for being blind, so I might have missed it.

 

The suggestion - what if Shrouding were to act like Epidemus' Tally, but backwards. The more Grey Knights on the table, the greater the benefit. Note: that's on the table, so those in reserve don't count. This represents thier gestalt effect. Also, if the enemy has a psyker on the table, the tally is lessened due to his ability to fight the effect.

 

On a personal note, I also would like to see some form of Fast Attack besides the Storm Raven. Maybe a psychic power for the Justicar that gives them the ability to fleet and shoot.

 

Just some thoughts,

 

GLSN

 

EDIT: grammer

[Daedalus Templarius]

I'm not saying they shouldn't be expensive, and I want them to be elite.

 

But as it stands, Justicar + squad is 50 points more than it is right now, and 100 points more than an assault squad.

 

I was thinking 25 per model, and 35 for the justicar. That would make a min squad size cost 135, which is still expensive, but much more reasonable than 200. With each additional model costing 25, which seems fair for what they have. It will still be painful to lose any though, and I think the shrouding would need to be looked at. Is that like a FNP roll? where you take your normal save first, then if you fail it, you get a 5+? If so, that actually is better than I thought.

 

I still think 250 might be a bit steep for a GKGM, he is pretty 'ard for 145 right now, but all those psychic powers would be pretty nuts. I still think for 250 he should be rolling in psychic powers and have an absolute beast statline (not mephiston, but close). I mean, he costs as much as a land raider.

[Valerian]

Lot's of good input and feedback in the last 24 hours or so; thanks fellas. I'm going to address your comments and issues together below.

 

I think the Machine Lance psychic power needs a bit of re-working. The wording is clunky and awkward, as it stands-- it is an exception to an exception, which seems almost guaranteed to cause consternation. "My model ignores Crew Shaken." "Yeah? Well mine ignores rules which ignore Crew Shaken!"

 

Perhaps a better solution would be to borrow inspiration from the accidental nature of our current Force Weapons in 5th: don't bother naming the special rule in the power's description. Perhaps something akin to the following:

 

"Machine Lance may only target Vehicles. If this attack results in a Glancing or a Penetrating hit, do not roll on the Vehicle Damage Chart. Instead, if the result was a Glancing Hit, the target may not Shoot any of its weapons until the beginning of your next turn. If the result was a Penetrating Hit, the target may not Move or Shoot until the beginning of your next turn."

 

Very good point; I will reword based on your recommendation.

 

Purgation squads could get access to something like 'Psycannon shells' which are S8 AP3, as it would cover the lack of non-Lascannon anti-tank, and would also give the army the magic Tyranid MC-killing weapon. It would have to be Heavy 1, though, to stop people crying out 'broken'.

 

I actually don't want to add a higher-strength weapon capability for the Grey Knights. There was a lot of discussion on this in the Inquisition project, and most came to the consensus that Grey Knights shouldn't have a higher Strength weapon or any Heavy weapons (we are all about the Mobile firepower). Instead, I'm going to follow the jeske's recommendation and develop some automatic/passive psychic abilities that give Purgation Squads a couple options. One of those options will basically be Tank Hunters (works out to Strength 7 Psycannon's), and another option will be something like Stealthy, but it improves the Shrouding Save (see below - good call). The other way I intend for Grey Knights to overcome vehicles is to Machine Lance them into inactivity until Knight's squads get close enought to NFW, Hammerhand, or Melta-Bomb them to destruction.

 

Maybe a Purgation Justicar could have a power that boosts the squad's Shrouding save to a 4+ for a turn?

 

Exactly what I am planning, see my answer just above.

 

I like Jeske's idea on the BCC as a support HQ for PAGKs, he could have a passive buff that gives them rerolls to hit in CC or something. I already have a converted Emperor's Champion i could use as a Power Armoured BCC :)

 

I'm going to think some more on the B-CC and his role, and how to rework him. There is a good chance that I'll redo him in a way that he'll have a couple of "buff" psychic powers that would make him worth attaching to a PAGK or GKT squad. More to follow.

 

Machine Lance should drop to S9, but be able to destroy vehicles i think, or even a S8 Lance weapon with the same effect.

 

Appreciate the input, but I like Machine Lance how it is - temporary disruption until Knights can close with and destroy in close combat.

 

The Justicar works out to be 1000pts in the fandex with psychic powers, so we should make the powers worth their weight in points, or possibly ease up the value of the base squad to 170pts.

 

I don't think of it so much as a squad of 4x Grey Knights at 25 points each plus a 100 point Justicar so much as I think of it as an initial cost of 200 for all five with any extra Grey Knights coming at a somewhat discounted cost of just 25 each. Although for that same 200 points you could get a full Assault Squad, or Space Wolves Pack, I believe that I've built in enough special abilities, that including the Justicar's psychic powers (which will be reworked to become automatic/passive abilities) to justify the costs.

 

Justicar + squad works out to be even more expensive now, and the 5+ invuln to shooting shrouding is pretty meh imo. A 5+ save isn't much of a save at all.

 

The 5+ isn't an Invulnerable Save, it is more like a "filter" for any/all failed Saves (failed Armour, Cover, or Invulnerable Saves) against any/all Shooting or Psychic Shooting attacks. It is like Feel No Pain, in that if you roll a 5+ you stand that dead model back up, even if he was shot in the face with a lascannon. This is why they units are much more expensive than before, because 1/3 of all dead guys from shooting don't actually die.

 

I do appreciate the inclusion of the Stormraven, but it has had limited usefulness in the games I've fielded it with my BA due to that 12 armor.

 

It's there for completeness, in case anyone wants to field it. Fluff in the BA codex was that we had them too.

 

Grandmaster seems way expensive, I mean I know he gets a bunch of psychic powers, but he might just end up perils'ing himself to death with that 4+ invuln, but at least that is something I suppose.

 

Only half of all Perils (due to the 4+ "filter" - basically like an Eldar Ghosthelm) should affect him, so you would really be rolling bad for him to actually kill himself in a game. Should I make it a 3+, so that it is exactly like a Ghosthelm?

 

If he gets himself to just one Wound left, then it's time to take it easy on attempting psychic powers for him for the rest of the game. The Grandmaster is no doubt expensive, but I tried to make him just as capable as a Logan Grimnar, Ragnar Blackmane, Sanguinor, or other similar character - and I think he is. For one, he is a hoss with all of the psychic powers he can generate per turn. Although none of those powers are over-the-top, they are all useful, and contribute to the game. Additionally, he makes one unit of GKT a Scoring, Troops, unit - this, I believe is a significant advantage and contributes to the justification of his very high cost. This also frees up an Elite slot for your Dreadnoughts and other GKT units, which is no small thing either.

 

I did ask for feedback on points, so appreciate your feedback for both the Grandmaster and the PAGK, but I think I need some actual convincing that they are not worth the high points costs. Let me hear some arguments (or anecdotal evidence) that they aren't worth that much.

 

Also, not really digging machine lance as a psychic AV defense. Blood lance has worked pretty well for me so far for my BA libs, maybe it should just be like that?

 

I'll have to look at Blood Lance again for comparison, but I do actually like how Machine Lance works (and how nicely it fits into the army theme, which is very important to me). Also, nobody else has a power like this, that I am aware of - which is an added benefit (army uniqueness).

 

 

Also, a link in here to the latest version would help :)

 

Good call - latest Fandex is here (but I am working on a few revisions based on recent feedback).

 

 

The mistake - I saw no mention of the Venerable special rule on the Venerable Dreadnought. I'm known for being blind, so I might have missed it.

 

Good catch, I had omitted that - now fixed (thanks for pointing that out).

 

The suggestion - what if Shrouding were to act like Epidemus' Tally, but backwards. The more Grey Knights on the table, the greater the benefit. Note: that's on the table, so those in reserve don't count. This represents thier gestalt effect. Also, if the enemy has a psyker on the table, the tally is lessened due to his ability to fight the effect.

 

I'll have to go look at Epidemus' Tally, since I don't remember anything about it, but I kind of like the simplicity of The Shrouding as it works now (like a 5+ We'll Be Back, or Feel No Pain roll).

 

On a personal note, I also would like to see some form of Fast Attack besides the Storm Raven. Maybe a psychic power for the Justicar that gives them the ability to fleet and shoot.

 

Okay, I'll think about ways in which I can add a Fast Attack version of PAGK. Perhaps just a simple passive pychic option for a Fleet capability is enough.

 

I'm not saying they shouldn't be expensive, and I want them to be elite.

 

But as it stands, Justicar + squad is 50 points more than it is right now, and 100 points more than an assault squad.

 

Yes, they are 50 points more than the current (real codex) unit, but they get the following advantages that the current version do not:

 

a. Ability to Teleport regardless of mission, with just a d6 Scatter

b. Much improved Shrouding, with 5+ filter of all Shooting Wounds

c. Shrouding affects close combat with effects of Offensive Grenades (attack at Initiative into Cover) and Defensive Grenades (minus 1 to attacks from each assaulting Enemy)

d. Improved True Grit (Storm Bolters act as pistols) so 3 attacks each on the charge (4 for the Justicar with his S6 Power Weapon)

e. Psychic Powers for the Justicar (changing to automatic/passive buffs - which will add even more capability).

 

I think each of these more than makes up for the difference of 50 points for the initial Squad of 5. The 25 points each for the additional Grey Knights added to the Squad actually come at somewhat of a discount.

 

I was thinking 25 per model, and 35 for the justicar. That would make a min squad size cost 135, which is still expensive, but much more reasonable than 200. With each additional model costing 25, which seems fair for what they have. It will still be painful to lose any though, and I think the shrouding would need to be looked at. Is that like a FNP roll? where you take your normal save first, then if you fail it, you get a 5+? If so, that actually is better than I thought.

 

Yes, it's like an FnP roll. See above the list of goodies that a PAGK unit gets. Do you still think 200 is too high? If so, lets work it out. I might wargame a few test scenarios of very small games of just our Troops against "their" Troops to see how it goes.

 

I still think 250 might be a bit steep for a GKGM, he is pretty 'ard for 145 right now, but all those psychic powers would be pretty nuts. I still think for 250 he should be rolling in psychic powers and have an absolute beast statline (not mephiston, but close). I mean, he costs as much as a land raider.

 

I agree, and maybe he is too high, but although he doesn't have a Mephiston stat-line, he still has as much capability as some of the other 250 point special characters. Taking into account his 3 Psychic Powers per turn, I'm not convinced he is overly expensive (maybe a little, but it is a Fandex, so I'd rather err on the side of too expensive than too cheap and hear all of the "it's broken and I won't play against it" responses). If everyone still thinks he is too much, what if I added a power like Dante's in which he and the unit he attaches to can Teleport in exactly where they want, with no Scatter roll?

 

Thanks again for the feedback everyone - and working with me to improve this document. Let me know if you still have a beef with any of my responses above.

 

Very best regards,

 

Valerian

[Brovius]

Some excellent summations there, Valerian.

 

All Grey Knights are meant to be more skilled warriors than their Space Marine equivalents, so i personally think that the GMs (who are meant to be the GK equivalent of Chapter Masters and heroes) should be WS7, to show off their impressive combat prowess. A stock standard Space Marine captain is WS6, and Grey Knight GMs are meant to be superior to them in skill. BCC is fine for his stats, but the WS7 on the GMs would make them seem more like powerful heroes, not a BCC with 1 more wound and an extra psychic power per turn.

GMs have slain more daemons than an entire chapter of most other Space Marines, and to be able to survive fights with such fierce foes would require skill in combat even greater than a standard Ork-fighting Ultramarine, etc.

I'd be fine with the current points cost if the GM was significantly different from a BCC and Space Marine captain by having the higher WS

 

Also, not sure if i skimmed over it, but i think Grey Knights should definitely have Preferred Enemy against Daemons. This rule was practically made for them :lol:

 

 

The Epidemus' Tally idea is great, it would encourage more foot-sloggers. Have it based on how many GKs are on the table like was originally said,(so reserves don't count until they enter the field, but models in transports do). Plus i love the wording behind the rule, too :lol:

 

Something like:

20+ GKs = Perils of the Warp save (from Rites of Exorcism) does not need to be rerolled (if we make Rites only the 4+ invulnerable against Perils, to include the tally)

25+ GKs = Brother Captains and Justicars NFWs become Force Weapons (and thus are able to cause Instant Death with a successful Psychic test)

30+ GKs = Perils of the Warp save (from Rites of Exorcism) becomes a 3+

35+ GKs = Shrouding save is improved to a 4+

40+ GKs = All Grand Master NFWs ignore Invulnerable saves against Daemons, and all Grey Knights gain the Preferred Enemy special rule against all enemy models

 

Just an example, and as more casualties are taken, the effectiveness of the GKs falls as they take casualties, to represent the sudden lack of their psychic presence.

It would also lead to people coming up with ways to play the fandex, leading to builds other than LR spam

[Valerian]

Some excellent summations there, Valerian.

 

Thanks much, and thanks for your continued input to the discussion.

 

All Grey Knights are meant to be more skilled warriors than their Space Marine equivalents, so i personally think that the GMs (who are meant to be the GK equivalent of Chapter Masters and heroes) should be WS7, to show off their impressive combat prowess. A stock standard Space Marine captain is WS6, and Grey Knight GMs are meant to be superior to them in skill. BCC is fine for his stats, but the WS7 on the GMs would make them seem more like powerful heroes, not a BCC with 1 more wound and an extra psychic power per turn.

GMs have slain more daemons than an entire chapter of most other Space Marines, and to be able to survive fights with such fierce foes would require skill in combat even greater than a standard Ork-fighting Ultramarine, etc.

I'd be fine with the current points cost if the GM was significantly different from a BCC and Space Marine captain by having the higher WS

 

I could go for the WS7, so long as we don't think that we would hear to much whining and cries of cheese from our opponents. To be perfectly honest, the Wolftooth Necklace in the Space Wolves codex that guarantees all hits in close combat are 3+ is probably more effective than a WS7 Grand Master, so I really don't see a problem with it. I'll place this idea in the "wait a few days and see what everyone else says" box. If there are no big naysayers, then it's in.

 

Also, not sure if i skimmed over it, but i think Grey Knights should definitely have Preferred Enemy against Daemons. This rule was practically made for them :confused:

 

I completely agree, but completely disagree! Here's why - as far as fluff and background material are concerned, absolutely, the Grey Knights should definitely have Preferred Enemy against Daemons, which are, of course, the enemy against which they are completely intended for and train their whole centuries-long lives. However, that being said, I think the 3rd Edition codex clearly demonstrated that you simply cannot have special abilities that are specifically directed against a single type of opponent. When you do, then that completely unbalances the meta-game, and definitely unbalances any games against that particular opponent. If you give them the ability for a set cost that the Grey Knights player cannot chose not to pay, then the Grey Knights player is disadvantaged against all opponents other than Daemons. If you give it to the Grey Knights for free, then the Daemons are disadvantaged against them. The 3rd Edition Codex gave us some specific anti-Daemon abilities and then tried to make up for it with the rather clumsy "Daemonic Infestation" rule.

 

Instead of going down this rabbit-hole of granting a specific anti-Daemon ability with my Grey Knights in the Fandex, I have chosen to make them equally effective against all opponents (who knows what Chaotic influences are affecting the Traitor or the Xenos), and leave the anti-Daemon capabilities with things that are bought (like the Anointed Weapon, Daemonhammer, Grimiore of True Names, and Sacred Incense - which are all available to Grand Masters and Brother-Captain Commanders). If they are being paid for, then there is no issue with knocking the game out of balance.

 

The Epidemus' Tally idea is great, it would encourage more foot-sloggers. Have it based on how many GKs are on the table like was originally said,(so reserves don't count until they enter the field, but models in transports do). Plus i love the wording behind the rule, too ;)

 

Something like:

20+ GKs = Perils of the Warp save (from Rites of Exorcism) does not need to be rerolled (if we make Rites only the 4+ invulnerable against Perils, to include the tally)

25+ GKs = Brother Captains and Justicars NFWs become Force Weapons (and thus are able to cause Instant Death with a successful Psychic test)

30+ GKs = Perils of the Warp save (from Rites of Exorcism) becomes a 3+

35+ GKs = Shrouding save is improved to a 4+

40+ GKs = All Grand Master NFWs ignore Invulnerable saves against Daemons, and all Grey Knights gain the Preferred Enemy special rule against all enemy models

 

Just an example, and as more casualties are taken, the effectiveness of the GKs falls as they take casualties, to represent the sudden lack of their psychic presence.

It would also lead to people coming up with ways to play the fandex, leading to builds other than LR spam

 

Not bad. I'm going to have to think about this for a while and figure out how to best implement it. I like the overall concept, but I don't want to throw the whole army list out of balance just because someone (like me!) decides to put 4 full Squads of PAGK, 2 mid-sized GKT Squads, and 2 Dreadnoughts on the board. 1,850 points should get you 1,850 points worth of combat power, regardless of how you chose to spend it.

 

Regards,

 

Valerian

[Valerian]

Fellas,

 

I could use some help with the passive psychic abilities for the various squads; I have hit a creativity block, so I am looking for some new ideas.

 

I like the recommendation to go to Eldar-style passive powers for the 1-Wound psykers (Justicars and Brother-Captains) and their units, and want to finalize the options for these units for Fandex.

 

Since these powers will be passive and always in effect, without requiring psychic tests or risk to the psyker himself, I am concerned that they'll make the units far too powerful than they need to be.

 

I'm happy with the two choices for Purgation Squads; they can either choose improved anti-vehicle capability with a power that grants them the Tank Hunters USR (allowing them to penetrate AV12 and glance AV13 with their Psycannons), or they can choose improved survivability with an enhanced Shrouding effect (4+ roll rather than 5+ roll to avoid shooting wounds). These are two good options for this unit, but I haven't figured out something appropriate for the unit if they choose to go with the 4xIncinerator option, vice the Psycannon option. Because these are significant improvements for the unit, the price for the unit will have to go up some more than what I've already priced them at.

 

I've added some placeholder abilities in for the Grey Knights Terminators and the Grey Knights in Power Armour, Troops choice, but none of them are good. This is primarily where I need help. If I can't figure out any good options, then I think I'll just go back to the original system where the Justicars and Brother-Captains chose from the same menu of powers as the Grand Masters and Brother-Captain Commanders, and roll psychic tests for them to work.

 

One other change that I have made is to the Rites of Exorcism ability, making it a flat 3+ roll on a d6 to ignore a Perils of the Warp wound (exactly like an Eldar Ghosthelm).

 

Thanks in advance for any ideas or recommendations,

 

V

[GeoWolf]

Hmm, quite a challenge. I haven't had a chance to play your fandex just yet, I'm going to try to line a game up soon. However, my ideas from reading over:

 

For the Brother Captain with the GKT, I like the idea of Word of the Emperor. It suits the unit as a whole, the very air about the unit would just radiate malice and retribution, not to mention that fluffwise a unit of TDA, much less GKT, are supposed to be imposing and intimidating. However, I don't like the Sanctuary power, that seems as though it should stay in the "needs to be cast pile". I may have missed it, I am at work right now, but what about having the Brother Captain grant the ability to charge on the same turn as deep striking? Something along the lines of forgoing your shooting phase in order to charge. It would balence out in my opinion, with the d6 scatter, you have a good chance to get the charge, but at the same time, in order to get that charge you have to chance it and land closer to your enemy. A deep strike mishap could be a very heavy drawback, but could yield high rewards to the daring.

 

And for the GK Justicar, what about granting Move through Cover? The rule does not transfer to vehicles, only to footslogging, but would enable GKs to use the battlefield to their advantage. Also, maybe something to the affect of the Bolter Drill, the Justicar forgoing his shooting to grant rerolls to his units shooting. Three choices, be able to break off from combat, be able to move about the field better, or be able to shoot better. This way it grants something different each time that doesn't cross over, each being used in a different phase.

 

I'm off to ponder and work some more....

[PhallenFoenix]

The bolter drill idea I share. Or, perhaps, giving them a version of the Dire Avenger Exarch power - All the guns get one more shot, but no shooting next turn. For the dire avengers, its because they need to reload. For stormbolters, more like they need to clear jams and let the feed mechanism cool.

 

I like the idea of Terminators being able to assault the turn they Deep strike... BUT...

 

Frankly, I think its stupid overpowered. I did use Gray Knights (not even the fan codex, just a pure GK list) in a planetstrike game (as attackers) against imperial guard a few weeks ago, and CRUSHED him. Deep strikers are permitted to assault the turn they come in under planetstrike rules, and it lead to pure silliness. With the ability to take GKT as troops, it would probably be pushed way over the edge.

[Brovius]

Not quite, Foenix

Have you seen the points cost of the Terminators? It all averages out in the end.

 

 

@ Valerian

Those Justicar passive powers for Purgation squads, how about you have an option at the start of the game as to which one you take? Or have it as part of the army list, instead of "All PAGK squads get the 'x' passive psychic power"

 

 

Here is an idea for a passive power to footslogger PAGKs: Righteous Charge (or Zealot's Strike) being the same as Furious Charge, but reworded (since GKs are not mindless fanatics like the Orks or World Eaters) as an option. It means that they will have a little more success against those ever-so-frustrating to destroy enemy vehicles. In addition to the ideas presented by GeoWolf, you could have a choice of which to take for each squad, and gives a more specialised feel to the squads.

Having your powerful assaulters, strategic strikers and the ranged masters will really fit in with the Grey Knights

[GeoWolf]

I agree Brovius, the GK are not going to out number another army, unless your opponent has done something wrong and taken 6 SC in a smurf list...

 

Not to mention, if you Mishap on the deepstrike, then thats a good portion of your army that is going to be deployed on the other side of the board, if you are that lucky.

 

I don't like the idea of copying the Exarch power, we already borrowed ideas from the Eldar in the Ghosthelm save and the passive powers of warlocks. Storm bolters already throw a good amount of shots down, but making each count seems the more elite option.

 

However, Furious charge MAY be a tad much. I'd have to play with the idea. NFW are pretty good in the GK hands...

 

@Valerian: I was thinking, for GKT give them the option to take the holocaust power as normal for the third slot. Fluff wise it makes sense, the unit of GKT channel everything through the Brother Captain. They would have to cast this normally, but as an offensive power I have no problem with that. That would give them the three options: make them harder to assault (and maybe -1 to LD for combat results?), have the potential to charge after a DS (given that you don't mishap), and then the option to take an offensive power that has to be rolled for. The BC would be the Focus for the power going off, and maybe word it so that if he is the last model left then he cannot cast it, as it took the whole squad to build the power.

 

A defensive-like power, a risky offensive power, and a normal damaging power that sticks to the fluff.

 

Just more ideas.... :)

[PhallenFoenix]

@Geowolf and Brovius -

 

Frankly, I think your badly mistaken. I'm welcome to be proven wrong, but I would ask you to really think about it.

 

Two units of terminators, assaulting the turn they enter, gutted an imperial guard gun line. One of the squads broke, and the terminators consolidated into cover, but the sheer amount of firepower the IG player threw at them still wiped them out to a man.

 

The second unit, however, stayed in assault, finished the squad off in the following turn, and proceeded to walk through the IG lines the rest of the game, slaughtering at will. That squad, worth about 300 points, killed close to 800 that game. The other squad only killed about 100 or so (160 ish including the squad that proceeded to fall back right off the table), but they also ate almost an entire turn of shooting from the IG, meaning that the next turn the rest of my army hit almost untouched.

 

This is with the present Codex: Daemonhunters, mind you. Not this Fandex: Gray Knights, where terminators get to pair stormshields with their NFWs... which if anything makes the units more scary, and more resilient to anything. For my money, I wouldn't pit anything against them that wasn't a deathstar unit in its own right, like a Swarmlord with Lashwhip guards, or a unit of terminators joined by Lysander. And as long as the Gray Knight player avoids charging any Swarmlords, I have faith in their ability to walk out the other side of whatever they pick a fight with.

 

The moral of this rambling story is, being able to assault the turn you deep strike can be easily broken, and having such an effective unit of terminators be able to do it seems on the wrong side of that line.

 

That's my .02. I won't argue the point again... if this doesn't convince you, I think only playtesting will convince anyone else of my correctness, or the lack thereof.

 

Happy holidays, those of you in the states