Grey Knights fandex feedback and suggestions

[Brovius]

I didn't mean to say it's not broken, just that you pay much more for a GKT squad in the Fandex. The IG player should have expected GKTs to eat Guardsmen. It's like expecting a mouse to fight down a cat. Guardsmen are on the very bottom of the list for close combat troops, surpassed even by Tyranid Gaunts. That's why they are only 5 points a model. GKTs are better reserved for fighting more powerful units, or big threats to your army, such as Heavy weapons platforms and Ogryn.

 

Their skills are pretty wasted on Guardsmen, unless you charge into multiple squads, then you tie up more IG shooting, and have less chance of the enemy being wiped out/fleeing, meaning you can finish them off in the enemy's assault phase, keeping the GKTs safe from a round of shooting.

 

It's all about tactics, use them well and pick your fights properly, and you will steamroll your opponent. Keep in mind that Codex GKTs do die rather easy. After Deepstriking against an IG player, i had almost an entire squad die to a well-thrown Demo pack from Marbo (BC Stern was among those to die, too).

Being few in number, and dying just as easily as Space Marines (they're much squishier than THam assault termies, and cost more points)

Look at Vanguard Veterans, they have S6 power weapons, too. They assault out of DS, and get as many attacks as GKTs. Correct me if i'm wrong, but i think them may have WS5 also? GKTs minus the TDA, if that's the case. No-one is screaming 'broken' about them.

 

The fandex adds to their survivability AND their points cost, as well as their combat ability, so it evens itself out. You get less models, but they can withstand more and are better in combat, which is what we need in an edition filled with IG Deathstrike missles and BA Nipple guard

[Daedalus Templarius]

They are pretty survivable if you get them majority storm shields, and actually use the new space marine rules for them. Of course, I always use updated rules for everything, just seems silly to not when the DH codex is like 8 years old.

 

You can swap the NFW+Stormbolter for free to TH/SS with the old codex, although I'd prefer not to give away the NFW, at least the fandex lets you swap the stormbolter for the SS for like 5 points, which I may use in my next game (pending opponent approval anyway).

[PhallenFoenix]

Their skills are pretty wasted on Guardsmen, unless you charge into multiple squads, then you tie up more IG shooting, and have less chance of the enemy being wiped out/fleeing, meaning you can finish them off in the enemy's assault phase, keeping the GKTs safe from a round of shooting.

As clarification, One squad attacked two heavy weapons teams, the other attacked a heavy weapons team and a normal squad

Look at Vanguard Veterans, they have S6 power weapons, too. They assault out of DS, and get as many attacks as GKTs. Correct me if i'm wrong, but i think them may have WS5 also? GKTs minus the TDA, if that's the case. No-one is screaming 'broken' about them.

 

...I'm confused. Where do vanguard veterans get relic blades, or any other s6 power weapon? I just checked my Codex: BA and if its there, I can't see it. By my read, they have chainswords, and the only power weapon is on the sergeant, and strength 4. From there they have to pay a premium. Even if they red thirst, they still only have power 5. (page 27 and page 96, Codex Blood Angels, 5th Edition, page 139, Codex Space Marines, 5th Edition). Additionally, they only have WS 4

 

Anyway, TDA + Stormshield is a very large jump in survivability over power armored Vanguard Vets. And while the vanguard vets can purchase storm shields, it doubles the cost of the model (In BA. In SM, it only ALMOST doubles the cost)

 

In short, no one complains about Vanguard veterans because they're not scoring, they're fragile, and they're expensive enough to make terminators looks like a bloody bargain. But perhaps the main reason no one complains about them being able to assault is they aren't a particularly dangerous close combat squad. They're basically just a unit of Assault marines. There best use is to tie up a devestator squad or similar. The best use of scoring terminators with vanguard veteran assault rules is to deep strike onto an objective and murder whatever's holding it, be they tactical marines, IG platoons, or a Tervigon with several guardian broods.

 

And while that's kinda fluffy and definitely awesome, it would not be fun to play against. At least normal assault terminators you get a chance to shoot at (or at least blow up their landraider) before they get dug in where they excel.

 

I'm really, really not trying to turn this into any kind of flame war. I just think vanguard veteran terminators with relic blades and stormshields are mildly ridiculous

[Brovius]

I often play against people who equip a full 5-man squad of Thunderwolf cavalry with Storm Shields and Power Weapons, and IG armies made almost entirely of Vendetta Gunships and those Lemans that fire 5 Plasma Cannon shots a turn. I face enough cheesy armies already, so it's about time they get a taste of some Grey Knight camembert :huh:

 

Just looked through the SM codex and it's only the Sarge that can get a Relic Blade. BA Vanguards must have changed (otherwise they'd be S7 when they charge, which is too insanely strong for a normal Spess Muhreen, they'd be hitting harder than a particular Tyranid MC that is over 4 times their height, and surely at least 25 times their weight)

 

I must have been thinking of Honour Guard, they can all have RBlades i think?

[Valerian]

Fellas,

 

I took a quick trip out of town, but am back and ready to respond to your most recent comments and ideas.

 

For the Brother Captain with the GKT, I like the idea of Word of the Emperor. It suits the unit as a whole, the very air about the unit would just radiate malice and retribution, not to mention that fluffwise a unit of TDA, much less GKT, are supposed to be imposing and intimidating. However, I don't like the Sanctuary power, that seems as though it should stay in the "needs to be cast pile".

 

To be honest, I think that both Sanctuary and Word of the Emperor provide significant enough advantages that they should require psychic tests to function, and not be automatic/passive powers. The trouble with finding good passive powers is that they need to be somewhat worthwhile (otherwise, what is the point of having them), but not so powerful that significantly overpower the unit for the whole game. The Eldar Bladestorm power is a good example of how to do this, as you get extra firepower for one round, but you have to sacrifice shooting in the next shooting phase as they unit "recovers".

 

I may have missed it, I am at work right now, but what about having the Brother Captain grant the ability to charge on the same turn as deep striking? Something along the lines of forgoing your shooting phase in order to charge. It would balence out in my opinion, with the d6 scatter, you have a good chance to get the charge, but at the same time, in order to get that charge you have to chance it and land closer to your enemy. A deep strike mishap could be a very heavy drawback, but could yield high rewards to the daring.

 

There is/was a lot of discussion on this already, but I think I will forgo the concept to allow a form of "Heroic Intervention" for the Grey Knights. Although there are risks of Mishap, and no quarantee that you'll be able to pull off a charge, even with the reduced Scatter, this still has the potential to be a very powerful capability. This is especially true for GKT which will clean house in an assault/close combat. I think it is only fair to give an opponent some (limited) ability to shoot at or move away from a Grey Knights unit that has just arrived via Teleport Assault. Taken at face value, Heroic Intervention on a single unit might not be a big deal, but when considering the context of how the Fandex Grey Knights operate as a whole, this might completely break the balance of the list. I'm going to go conservative on this one and leave out HI for now.

 

And for the GK Justicar, what about granting Move through Cover? The rule does not transfer to vehicles, only to footslogging, but would enable GKs to use the battlefield to their advantage. Also, maybe something to the affect of the Bolter Drill, the Justicar forgoing his shooting to grant rerolls to his units shooting. Three choices, be able to break off from combat, be able to move about the field better, or be able to shoot better. This way it grants something different each time that doesn't cross over, each being used in a different phase.

 

Move Through Cover is probably a good idea; I had considered it myself earlier, but left it out initially. I think it would be a reasonable option for a passive power that wouldn't overpower the unit, but would add a limited useful capability. So, as it stands, prior to the game the Grey Knights player would select from among three choices for passive psychic powers that a Justicar would grant to his PAGK Troops unit. One would grant the Move Through Cover USR (Path of the Riteous for a name?), one would grant the Hit and Run USR, and the third would improve Storm Bolter shooting in some way. For the third I am tempted to just copy Bladestorm word for word and leave it at that (extra shot per Storm Bolter, but then no shooting in the following Shooting phase).

 

The bolter drill idea I share. Or, perhaps, giving them a version of the Dire Avenger Exarch power - All the guns get one more shot, but no shooting next turn. For the dire avengers, its because they need to reload. For stormbolters, more like they need to clear jams and let the feed mechanism cool.

 

Yeah, see just above - that is what I am thinking of going with too.

 

I like the idea of Terminators being able to assault the turn they Deep strike... BUT...

 

Frankly, I think its stupid overpowered. I did use Gray Knights (not even the fan codex, just a pure GK list) in a planetstrike game (as attackers) against imperial guard a few weeks ago, and CRUSHED him. Deep strikers are permitted to assault the turn they come in under planetstrike rules, and it lead to pure silliness. With the ability to take GKT as troops, it would probably be pushed way over the edge.

 

I concur; as much as I would like to be able to do that I know that any opponent wouldn't enjoy playing against that at all. As I stated above, I'm going to leave that one out.

 

Those Justicar passive powers for Purgation squads, how about you have an option at the start of the game as to which one you take? Or have it as part of the army list, instead of "All PAGK squads get the 'x' passive psychic power"

 

That's what it is Brovius; maybe I didn't write it clearly enough, but the concept is that prior to the game the Grey Knights player would select from the available passive psychic power options and chose one for each unit that the unit would have for the whole game (or at least until the Justicar or Brother-Captain dies). So, using the Purgation Squad as an example, for every Purgation Squad included in the army list, the owning player would chose to either give them the Improved Shrouding power or the Tank Hunters USR (one or the other, not both) as the unit passive ability for the duration of the game.

 

Here is an idea for a passive power to footslogger PAGKs: Righteous Charge (or Zealot's Strike) being the same as Furious Charge, but reworded (since GKs are not mindless fanatics like the Orks or World Eaters) as an option.

 

I think Grey Knights would immediately go "over-the-top" with a Furious Charge passive power - even if it is just for our PAGK. I just can't justify that significant of a benefit. If there is something else that we can think of that is a little less powerful as a close-combat oriented benefit, then I would consider that as another option.

 

I was thinking, for GKT give them the option to take the holocaust power as normal for the third slot. Fluff wise it makes sense, the unit of GKT channel everything through the Brother Captain. They would have to cast this normally, but as an offensive power I have no problem with that. That would give them the three options: make them harder to assault (and maybe -1 to LD for combat results?), have the potential to charge after a DS (given that you don't mishap), and then the option to take an offensive power that has to be rolled for. The BC would be the Focus for the power going off, and maybe word it so that if he is the last model left then he cannot cast it, as it took the whole squad to build the power.

 

Yeah, we might have to go for that - including a mix of powers that require a test (like Holocaust), and automatic passive powers (like Hit and Run), for the unit's leader to chose from.

 

V

[PhallenFoenix]

Sadly, I have to agree with furious charge being a bad idea as well. So is probably anything increasing initiative.

[ignavus]

For a passive power, how about one that makes psycannons count as ap1, but only when shooting at vehicles?

[PhallenFoenix]

That would at least help the GK anti armor abilities. Not sure how well it fits fluffwise, though.

[Brovius]

Deathsoul, one of the Purgation squad's passive powers is going to give them Tank Hunters. They will pretty much have S7 Psycannons against vehicles. It does more than the AP1 would do, wouldn't contrast with the fluff, and could grant some glances where the shots would normally fail

[ignavus]

Fair enough, personally I just don't like Tank Hunters, thought something different, not nesserially for the Purgation squad may be a nice idea.

[GeoWolf]

Ok, so for the GKT we have:

-Holocaust as is: needs a test to see if it is pulled off. Again, I like it, fluffy and offensive, whats not to love?

-Either Bolter Drill or Bladestorm as a Passive. Could go either way, make the same number or shots that have a reroll or add an extra shot per storm bolter. I don't know the mathhammer, but they are pretty much the same in my eyes, the more dice you roll the better.

 

Now, do we want to leave it at that, or go for a third power? I relent on the assaulting deepstrike, and given your points on it I can see how it could break the fun. Maybe something to add to combat results?

[kennedy]

I just read through your Fandex and it seems very interesting. I am looking forward to test it out.

How about some psycic abilities and option for a NFW for the dreds- Or at least the Venerable?. And maybe even a front armor of 13 for the Venerable?

I read through just about all of the comments, but not all, so sorry if I missed these answers.

If I am fortunate enough to get a game into my tight schedule, I will pass my thoughts on.

Great job so far.

[Brovius]

I just read through your Fandex and it seems very interesting. I am looking forward to test it out.

How about some psycic abilities and option for a NFW for the dreds- Or at least the Venerable?. And maybe even a front armor of 13 for the Venerable?

I read through just about all of the comments, but not all, so sorry if I missed these answers.

If I am fortunate enough to get a game into my tight schedule, I will pass my thoughts on.

Great job so far.

 

An AV13 dreadnought would be good, it would put us in line with all 5th edition SM Dreads, too. Plus, the leap in points between the regular and venerable is quite steep for +1BS and to reroll damage results. All other Sm chapters get this upgrade for much less points than we do.

 

The NFW would be a fluffy idea, but impractical, as the DCC weapon is already S10 and strikes at Initiative, so the NFW would be a waste of points.

[Valerian]

Ok, so for the GKT we have:

-Holocaust as is: needs a test to see if it is pulled off. Again, I like it, fluffy and offensive, whats not to love?

-Either Bolter Drill or Bladestorm as a Passive. Could go either way, make the same number or shots that have a reroll or add an extra shot per storm bolter. I don't know the mathhammer, but they are pretty much the same in my eyes, the more dice you roll the better.

 

Now, do we want to leave it at that, or go for a third power? I relent on the assaulting deepstrike, and given your points on it I can see how it could break the fun. Maybe something to add to combat results?

 

Yeah, that's what we've got for now for the Terminators - Holocaust as a power requiring a test, or Bladestorm as a passive power. I'm still working on other ideas (and looking for more from y'all) that would fit in well, too, for a third option.

 

I just read through your Fandex and it seems very interesting. I am looking forward to test it out.

How about some psycic abilities and option for a NFW for the dreds- Or at least the Venerable?. And maybe even a front armor of 13 for the Venerable?

I read through just about all of the comments, but not all, so sorry if I missed these answers.

If I am fortunate enough to get a game into my tight schedule, I will pass my thoughts on.

Great job so far.

 

Thanks kennedy, and welcome aboard. Back when I first made this Fandex, someone mentioned a Psyker version of the Dreadnought, to which I responded that although I liked the concept, "I'm not going to touch that with a 10-foot pole." Well, wouldn't you know, several months later the Blood Angels codex was released with, you guessed it, a Psyker Dreadnought. Now that GW themselves have opened that up as a possibility, I think it is definitely fair game for us in the Fandex. I just haven't gotten around to it yet. I was actually hoping to fix up/finalize some of the units that I've already got in there before adding in new things, but I'll tell you what, I'll try to get a Psyker upgrade option added into the Dreadnoughts in the next day or two.

 

As far as AV13, I'm not so sure. Our Dreadnoughts definitely aren't Ironclads, and I don't want to just steal all of the good stuff from the Codex Space Marines or Codex Blood Angels. Perhaps one of the upgrades (like Sacred Hull) could provide the higher AV at a much increased cost. I'll think about this one.

 

As far as the NFW on the Dreadnoughts, well there isn't much it would do, unless you wanted the Instant Death ability. I'll take a look at this, too. I suppose if you take a Dreadnought and then select the Psyker upgrade that I'm going to add in, then you could take a Dreadnought version of the NFW just to have ID (although you'd get to ID 99% of enemy models in the game already with your S10 Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon anyway).

 

I just read through your Fandex and it seems very interesting. I am looking forward to test it out.

How about some psycic abilities and option for a NFW for the dreds- Or at least the Venerable?. And maybe even a front armor of 13 for the Venerable?

I read through just about all of the comments, but not all, so sorry if I missed these answers.

If I am fortunate enough to get a game into my tight schedule, I will pass my thoughts on.

Great job so far.

 

An AV13 dreadnought would be good, it would put us in line with all 5th edition SM Dreads, too. Plus, the leap in points between the regular and venerable is quite steep for +1BS and to reroll damage results. All other Sm chapters get this upgrade for much less points than we do.

 

How much is the upgrade to Venerable for other Dreadnoughts? I thought that I'd charged about the same. Of course, the other Chapters also get an elevated WS, whereas ours already have WS5 so perhaps I do need to drop the Venerable by some. I'll look back into this, too.

 

Thanks for your continued input and interest.

 

Valerian

[GeoWolf]

So, I haven't had any epiphany's, and it appears no one else has either. What about you, Valerian? Any new thoughts? I may actually get to play with the fandex tomorrow, as I actually have time to get to my LGS and hope I can talk someone into letting me use it. I will let you know how it goes!

[Valerian]

So, I haven't had any epiphany's, and it appears no one else has either. What about you, Valerian? Any new thoughts?

 

The only thing "new" that I've come up with is a passive ability, called The Quickening for now, that would allow a unit to roll 2d6 and pick the highest one for any Run Moves. It wouldn't be a huge advantage, but would be a little helpful for any "Assault-oriented" type of squad that really needs some increased Footslogging mobility.

 

Other than that, I just need to dedicate some time to get back into the blog and update a few things. I told someone else that I would look at adding a Psyker version of the Dreadnought, so I need to take care of that in the near future.

 

I may actually get to play with the fandex tomorrow, as I actually have time to get to my LGS and hope I can talk someone into letting me use it. I will let you know how it goes!

 

Did you get to play, Geo? If so, how did it go? Any feedback for me/us based on your experience with it?

 

Thanks,

 

V

[Brovius]

The only problem that the Quickening has, is that most GK players will try and get as many shots into the enemy units as possible, seeing as we are often so badly outnumbered by foes. Quickening may only see use when a squad is completely out of range to fire their weapons at any target

[Valerian]

The only problem that the Quickening has, is that most GK players will try and get as many shots into the enemy units as possible, seeing as we are often so badly outnumbered by foes. Quickening may only see use when a squad is completely out of range to fire their weapons at any target

 

I agree, but there might be some use where a unit really, really wants to get somewhere fast, and don't mind sacrificing their Shooting. Generally I agree that it isn't the best, at all times, but it is just one of three options to select from.

 

V