Heavy Weapons in Tac Squads. Useful or Useless?

[minigun762]

There is truely no real drawback here. If you have issues with the temptation of standing still when you should be moving, that isnt an issue with the squad option but with your own tactical sense and/or self control. Every tactical squad should have a free heavy weapon.

 

I agree with you Grey Mage, a good general will know when to shoot and when to move.

Having said that, I remember when I first started I played SM and more often then not, I sat on my butt and fired the heavy weapon instead of moving or rapid firing. It was hard to overcome the feeling that "I'm wasting the heavy gun if I move" and this was back when you had to pay for them. Its actually part of the reason I moved to Chaos since you could take 2x special weapons and not have that problem so I very much understand the temptation to sit and shoot.

 

If it helps, take something like the Multi-Melta. There is next to no incentive to sit and shoot against anything that isn't a tank and in those cases your Bolters would be useless anyway. This way, the heavy weapon functions as a "oh crap!" backup.

[Xeonic]

Trading a single S4 shot for an S8 shot with no points overhead is always a good deal in my opinion. ^_^

Trading a single S4 shot for a S8 AP1 melta shot is also not a bad deal.

Trading a single S4 shot for 3x S5 shots isn't bad either.

 

Basically, the missile launcher does a lot of things for the squad with no points cost. It gives you ability to provide a modicum of fire support when holding an objective outside of 24", it lets you drop weak templates on hordes, or strong single shots capable of ignoring 3+ sv armor and causing instant death, and perhaps most importantly it allows the squad to engage vehicles if necessary. One missile launcher hardly changes the role of the squad, but it does grant it a measure of tactical flexibility not enjoyed by a troops choice with 2x special weapons.

The multi-melta allows the squad to be a powerful area denial tool in addition to having the same effective range as a bolter.

The heavy bolter just allows the squad to be better at mulching troops, it wouldn't really be worth taking if it wasn't free.

Combat squadding and combat tactics also both mesh very well with a heavy weapon, combat squads are really attractive for those lascannon and plasma cannon toters, though even without combat squads, 5 pts spent on a plasma cannon is 5pts well spent even if you only fire it a few times a game, and vs marine or termie equivalents it's a sure bet it will make it's points back in one good shot.

 

It's been said before, but if you're playing agressively, losing out on one bolt shot isn't much, and if you're playing defensively you'll utilize the heavy with a relish. I know I've personally never pointed to my missile launcher or plasma cannon guys and said "hey, I really miss his bolter".

 

When I want to play more offensively, I just pull out the chaos marines with all the meltaspam anyways. :(

[rat of vengence]

I run a tac squad with melta and multimelta in a rhino, combimelta if I have the points. I use the two assault weapons, or rapid fire more often than not. The multimelta didn't cost me more than 1xS4 shot, yet makes the enemy think twice about coming near with armour. It's also good for threatening high toughness/armour units at a decent range IF I want that squad to stand and shoot anyway.

 

Plasmacannon for 5 points? YES PLEASE! I combat squad, 5 marines with plasma death take a good vantage point while the powerfist and flamer drive off in the razorback to support other squads.

 

Yup, the heavy is worth it, even if it only fires once.

 

RoV

[greatcrusade08]

the heavy weapon is what makes a tactical squad truely 'tactical', that being said its not something i like, id much prefer the double special weapon like wolves and CSM and put those rhinos to good use clsoing the gaps.. however as it goes the lack of the extra ccw means tactical squads would be less effective in this role.

the main purpose for taking tac marines is the massed bolter fire, in my case i use scouts for the same purpose. Ten rapid firing bolters with a power fist for 165 points is not too shabby

[Warprat]

the heavy weapon is what makes a tactical squad truely 'tactical', that being said its not something i like, id much prefer the double special weapon like wolves and CSM and put those rhinos to good use clsoing the gaps.. however as it goes the lack of the extra ccw means tactical squads would be less effective in this role.

 

 

If you want to mechanize wolves, you can't really take two specials anyway, unless you don't take a wolfguard. And wolves need the extra movement of vehicles to assault. So, in that respect, grey hunters are the same as codex tacticals. Wolves get a LOT more close combat gear and of couse the special wolf stuff.

 

My wolf playing buddy complains he doesn't get heavies in his grey hunters and blood claws... and he fears my plasma cannon tactical combat squads.

 

Wolves lack the ballence that a codex tactical squad can bring, to every game. Codex tactical squads are so versitile. Not great at any one thing, but generally acceptable at every task. Decent against any enemy, in almost every situation.

 

Warprat ;)

[Grey Mage]

the heavy weapon is what makes a tactical squad truely 'tactical', that being said its not something i like, id much prefer the double special weapon like wolves and CSM and put those rhinos to good use clsoing the gaps.. however as it goes the lack of the extra ccw means tactical squads would be less effective in this role.

 

 

If you want to mechanize wolves, you can't really take two specials anyway, unless you don't take a wolfguard. And wolves need the extra movement of vehicles to assault. So, in that respect, grey hunters are the same as codex tacticals. Wolves get a LOT more close combat gear and of couse the special wolf stuff.

 

My wolf playing buddy complains he doesn't get heavies in his grey hunters and blood claws... and he fears my plasma cannon tactical combat squads.

 

Wolves lack the ballence that a codex tactical squad can bring, to every game. Codex tactical squads are so versitile. Not great at any one thing, but generally acceptable at every task. Decent against any enemy, in almost every situation.

 

Warprat :(

I agree in most regards, but frankly- I almost never bring Wolf Gaurd to a fight, and certainly would rather have the second special than a WGPL.

 

And yes, it would be beyond incredible if we could take heavy weapons instead of specials when we wanted- wich is of course why we cannot.

[Warprat]

I agree in most regards, but frankly- I almost never bring Wolf Gaurd to a fight, and certainly would rather have the second special than a WGPL.

 

And yes, it would be beyond incredible if we could take heavy weapons instead of specials when we wanted- wich is of course why we cannot.

 

 

I am tempted to try wolves myself. I have a really nice older metal dreadnought Bjorn mini that I just love. I even have a few wulfen figures. Wolves have a really great rules set, full of flavor and fluff. I've always loved them.

 

I think you may be a little hard on the Wolf Guard though. From what I understand of the codex, they are the only space marine army that can re-assign sergent equivilents to each squad, based on the needs of each battle. The ability to mix and match. From what I see, though, most people don't even bother to even take advantage of it. There are times I would dearly love to do that with my codex forces.

[Grey Mage]

I agree in most regards, but frankly- I almost never bring Wolf Gaurd to a fight, and certainly would rather have the second special than a WGPL.

 

And yes, it would be beyond incredible if we could take heavy weapons instead of specials when we wanted- wich is of course why we cannot.

 

 

I am tempted to try wolves myself. I have a really nice older metal dreadnought Bjorn mini that I just love. I even have a few wulfen figures. Wolves have a really great rules set, full of flavor and fluff. I've always loved them.

 

I think you may be a little hard on the Wolf Guard though. From what I understand of the codex, they are the only space marine army that can re-assign sergent equivilents to each squad, based on the needs of each battle. The ability to mix and match. From what I see, though, most people don't even bother to even take advantage of it. There are times I would dearly love to do that with my codex forces.

Oh no, your fully correct- they are certainly a viable option with alot of flexability in their equipment and use.

 

I personally find that unless I am footslogging I dont have the room for them- I wont give up the second special for a seargent, when its only a five point surcharge to put a nice SCCW on one of my Grey Hunters. We get into debates about the pros and cons of this in the Fang all the time.

 

My prefered setup is 2x Special of the same time, Powerfist with flamers and plasma, PW with melta, and a wolf totem if I have the points- in a DP or a rhino. Keeps them between 200-230pts.

[pueriexdeus]

I have found a different way to field my Tac HW's, and it works for me. I call it combat sections.

 

Low point example: 750ish

 

Chappi w/JP

 

2X Tac Sqds of 10;

1st Sqd Sgt PF/PW, ML, PG

2nd Sqd Sgt CS, PC, Flmr, Rzrbk TLLC

 

Dev Sqd of 5, 2x PC, 2X HB

 

I place the Devs on my defensible Obj with the combat teamed HW's from the other two squads. Effectively creating a 15 man Dev Sqd with six weapons.

 

The remaining two combat teams both with a Vet Sgt, special weapon each and a Rzrbk work in concert with each other while receiving fire support from the fire base.

 

Used correctly you'll split the opponents fire across six targets and be able to place decisive firepower in the right place at the right time. The Chappi is CC support for the two mobile teams.

 

This particular load out I use against Orks/Nids. Heavy weapons can be adjusted to suit your opponents needs.

[greatcrusade08]

The problem with a single heavy on a tac squad is thats its a single weapon and if it misses then youve wasted a whole turn with a 230ish point unit... i was discussing wolves earlier becuase they have a great tactic for thier tac-type squads and thats rushing forward to stick something sharp in the enemies sternum.

Due to the afforementioned lack of ccws the Tac squads fail in cc against most assault units but at rapid fire range can do well, let the survivors charge you and then use the hidden fist to smoosh them.

 

The issue i have is, if you need them to get into close range you dont necessarily have the opportunity to use the heavies and therefore its a waste.. however i do run a list in which i use two tac squads in rhinos along with a raider with calgar and HG... first turn i use oribtal bombardment and as i like to flank the Lr with the rhinos, whilst the raider is stationary first turn i use the MLs on the tac squads to take down enemy mech etc.

I guess there is a case for including them, but id rather leave that job to a dedicated unit like devs or typhoons, its only a personal thing but being flexible isnt everything.

Most know my work with scouts and i used to beleive that flexibility was the ket to victory, over time ive come to the realisation that maximising potential is far better. (its a minor difference, but its important to understand this idea)

Leave assaults to assault units, leave heavy firepower to heavy support units.. leave infantry to kill enemy infantry.

Of course this is simplifying matters, if you want a tac squad to kill tanks then you could do worse than include a MM with meltagun and meltabombs.

 

To summarise: Tac squads are the perfect all rounder unit, by including a meltagun they can kill characters and tanks alike, but thier best usage is against troops.. thats where you should be using them, just becuase they have the capablity of doing other thigs doesnt mean you should cater for it.. treat these extras as a redundancy just incase youve no other choice.

[Xeonic]

Well I personally can't think of a situation where 1 bolt shot would be worth not taking a heavy weapon for. A missile launcher isn't "wasted" shooting troops, and even if I only fire my heavy weapons a time or two it still gives me the -option- to use it. 1 more bolt shot might be better in a few situation but that single bolt shot pigeonholes the unit into bolter shock. All the special weapons work pretty well aggressively by the by, matching up well with the bolters.

 

I fire my missile launchers when I'm outside of bolter range, have had to stay still for multiple turns, or when that vindicator just has to be brought down. As I said, they fit the "tactical" in tactical squad, allowing the squad a broader range of engagements and insuring that no matter what target you can pack something to shoot at. Only chimeras on the table? Shoot them with missiles. Only land raiders? Shoot them with missiles(and watch them bounce off harmlessly, but anyways...)! Rather than think of a tactical squad heavy weapon as something you always have to be firing to make good use of your investment, think of it as a way to allow tactical marines to engage targets they can't normally hurt, much like a powerfist.

 

Ultimately the missile launcher only costs 1 bolt shot for the great degree of flexibility it offers. If there's only armor or I have to bring something nasty down, firing my tactical squad missiles at it even if they miss is hardly a "waste". They're doing their job by giving me more chances to bring down an armored target than I would have had otherwise. Even a miss is better than my tacticals standing around looking silly.

More shots=more chances for a good hit on a given target.

 

Tactical marines are all about being able to do anything you need them to...but not as well as a dedicated specialist. Since you have to take either them or scouts anyways, why not make them able to support your specialist units in their roles as well?

 

Anyways, opinion, of course. I like my tactical marines as a well rounded versatile troops choice, and generally kit them to handle anything I could expect of them, and throwing a missile launcher, multi-melta, or plasma cannon into the squad can go a long way towards that.

[Hellios]

To summarise: Tac squads are the perfect all rounder unit, by including a meltagun they can kill characters and tanks alike, but thier best usage is against troops.. thats where you should be using them, just becuase they have the capablity of doing other thigs doesnt mean you should cater for it.. treat these extras as a redundancy just incase youve no other choice.

 

QFT they are worth it just in case your anti-tank gets busted early on or you are say fighting guard with 20 armoured units and you need to pop them but if you have a choice between at shooting the tactical squad next to you or the land raider normally it is better to kill the tactical squad should you have a multi-melta... you need that raider dead and your dedicated anti-tank has been unable to do what needs to be done... then sure go for it!

 

I don't know if people remember the good old power fist debates but I think heavy weapons are much like power fists (excluding the 25pts) just because you have a power fist doesn't mean you need to rush in CC but if you get ambushed by a wraithlord or Captain Bob gets into combat with you it might help save the day!

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Especially considering how cheap we get Tac HWs these days (A 5 point plasma cannon? Seriously?), it's worth taking, as you say, just for the option should the need or situation arise. They're like condoms and concealed weapons -- I'd rather have one and not need it than need one and not have it.

[Captain Idaho]

I suppose the real debate shouldn't come from whether adding a heavy weapon is appropriate, but whether paying points for an upgrade is. Personally I think it is as I enjoy sniping at opponents and forcing them to come to me sometimes (important against Eldar etc). I have an army with 5 Lascannons in it and 2 come from Tacticals and that is quite alot to take on enemy armour from range.

 

However, depending on your play style of course, it might not be appropriate to add extra cost to their heavy weapons, as some people like to rush forward with their army so paying extra isn't so hot.

 

So the real question, which I doubt we will get much consensus on, is when to upgrade the heavy weapons on the Tactical squads?

[greatcrusade08]

it comes in handy hen you take razorbacks, split the guys into combat squads for the inclusion of more heavy weapons.. Its a solid tactic.

[Grey Mage]

Its also the reason that tactical heavies are so cheap- because your only paying for the option to do something that might save your game, not paying for a mainstay tactic of the unit that youll use each and every turn.

 

Its not a "waste" of 230pts if you miss- What its really a gamble, just like any other time you shoot. You could miss, and your 150pt upgrade vindicator did nothing that turn. Your Chapter Master could wiff all his attacks and die to grots. The simple fact is that more likely than not your going to hit, and if your good with your target allocation your likely to glance an enemy vehicle or hit some enemy troops in an effective manner. Still, your right- its a game of dice, nothing is gauranteed.

 

After all, Ive seen 5 TH+SS termies go down to a pair of striking scorpions in one round of assault- it happens.

[greatcrusade08]

After all, Ive seen 5 TH+SS termies go down to a pair of striking scorpions in one round of assault- it happens.

 

This is part of what i meant about maximising potential.. a single BS4 shot may miss but if your running two of the same weapon in a squad then the chances of hitting are pretty much 100%.

So if you take a meltagun in your tac squad to bust the occasional tank, you might aswell take a MM or ML too

[pattison]

it comes in handy hen you take razorbacks, split the guys into combat squads for the inclusion of more heavy weapons.. Its a solid tactic.

seconded

[greatcrusade08]

i admit i never used to like the lascannon, but recent games have shown me thats its an awesome weapon.. i may upgrade my ML marines with lascannons at some future point.. even more so should i take razorbacks for my squads

[tahrikmili]

I would never leave any of my Tactical Squads without a Multi-Melta and a Plasmagun. 24" killing fields are what they are best for. Give it to the enemy at that range, and give it hard. Tacticals for long range support is a waste. They are great at holding chokepoints and objectives. Use your devastators for your Missile Launcher/Heavy Bolter needs. (I have no argument against Lascannon in tactical squads, given how cheap it is, but I find it's sort of contradictory with the unit role.)