Captain Bodyguards

[Lithanial]

I think we can all agree that a SM Captain with Relic blade and various other equipment is pretty awesome. The problem i am currently having when tweaking C:SM lists is, where on earth do you put him?

 

If you give him a jump pack to bring that relic blade into use quicker then you are stuck giving him either a basic ASM squad which are rather ineffective against the targets you will want to send the captain against. Likewise a Vanguard squad costs over the odds with jump packs and you lose the heroic intervention that you are paying for.

 

On a bike you can at least take a command squad, but the cost of doing so is massive! plus trying to model a Captain that looks good on a bike is a nightmare.

 

So what do you run a mobile captain with? I really struggle to find effective escorts for him that don't cost the earth - especially if you are playing 1500 games where you have little room to be throwing away points.

[greatcrusade08]

Why do people think an assault squad is poor? ten assault marines can handle most units in assault, but moreover the presence of 4-5 PW attacks at I5 makes them even more dangerous..

In assault i find initiative to be the key, even terminators, honour guard etc die horribly to character attacks.

 

Basically ten assault marines with a captain is well worth taking

[DarkGuard]

Give him a bolter and hellfire rounds with his relic blade, give him a Command Squad with 4 plasma guns in a Razorback, and send them against any MCs or TEQ units. Lots of plasma can put a dent in most things. Either that or RB/SS in a Hammernator squad if you don't want to put him in an Assault Squad with a Jump Pack.

 

EDIT: GC08, I wouldn't say Assault Squads are poor, they can be effective if used correctly. However, they aren't the most killy unit in the Codex. I used one with a Captain in my old Half Company list, and sometimes it worked well, jumping on small squads or those weakened by my Tactical Squads. However, they are limited, with one character who can be hit by a power fist, plus their own power fist being the only thing that can do meaningful damage against MEQ. Against GEQ I expect them to shine however, due to their poor armour save.

 

However, when you look at points cost, and the compare them to say, Sternguard, who get the same amount of attacks with awesome shooting prowess, then I can see why some don't take them. I haven't taken them for a while. Also, Assault Squad probably do best with a Chaplain, lots of power weapon attacks, decent WS and ability to re-roll failed to hits on charge plus low points cost is good.

[minigun762]

Easiest option is to toss him in a land raider with th/as terminator to provide some high I attacks while still being a threat to MCA

[Giga]

5 th/ss termies + a captain in a land raider are always a good option.

 

If you're running a bike captain, then putting him in a huge squad of bikers (with meltaguns, a mm attack bike, and a powerfist sergeant) is also a great thing to do.

 

Keeping him with a command squad might seem like a good, fluffy option, but it's really not that great of an idea as command squads are designed for close-range shooting and captains are designed for close-combat. Vanguard, on the other hand, are overpriced for what they do, and are better used with a chaplain anyway. Assault marines are horde-killers, and you really don't want your captain joining a unit that can't take down a monstrous creatures.

[Ookami_81]

I think we can all agree that a SM Captain with Relic blade and various other equipment is pretty awesome. The problem i am currently having when tweaking C:SM lists is, where on earth do you put him?

 

If you give him a jump pack to bring that relic blade into use quicker then you are stuck giving him either a basic ASM squad which are rather ineffective against the targets you will want to send the captain against. Likewise a Vanguard squad costs over the odds with jump packs and you lose the heroic intervention that you are paying for.

 

On a bike you can at least take a command squad, but the cost of doing so is massive! plus trying to model a Captain that looks good on a bike is a nightmare.

 

So what do you run a mobile captain with? I really struggle to find effective escorts for him that don't cost the earth - especially if you are playing 1500 games where you have little room to be throwing away points.

 

Some thoughts on biker captains: on low points game you can put him in a regular bike squad of 6 bikers, HB ABike, two flamers, one sarge with combi-flamer ( and/or PFist if you have the points). While not that excellent in CC this unit put serious damage close before charging, and then you've got a RB captain with many ablative wounds. It's not ideal, but it's cheaper than buying him a special command squad, even nearly naked.

 

I don't think they are difficult to model on bike IMHO. Try using ravenwing bits to give him a DA veteran pair of legs, that way he'll be really different from the other bikers and kinda cool. Mine is like this, with regular captain front torso, DA sarge back torso, a captain helmet (forgetting its helmet before going to battle is to me a really bad example given to the troops ;) ), and the eagle exhaust backpack + the iron halo. It's both simple and effective. Give him a nice long sword and everybody identify immediatly a biker captain.

[Giga]

Give him a bolter and hellfire rounds with his relic blade, give him a Command Squad with 4 plasma guns in a Razorback,

Naw, give him a combi-plasma. It costs the same as hellfire rounds and does ultimately better with BS5, and you're likely to only rapid fire once per battle, anyway.

 

That being said, 4 plasmaguns in a razorback are just fine on their own. They really don't need a captain to keep them company, as that captain is better off leading a squad of th/ss termies, or riding around with a bunch of bikers.

[ShinyRhino]

A captain with relic blade and other upgrades, attached to an Assault Squad will do just fine, actually.

How?

Locking down special models, of course! The more numerous your escort unit, the more models you have to "lock out" enemy models from touching your captain. Charging a tactical squad with a powerfist? Use smart maneuvering to place either a mook as the closest model to the enemy, or the Captain. Once you've moved the closest model inyour unit to contact with the closest in the enemy unit, you must move the Captain as soon as possible. Use smart model placement to ensure your Captain does not get into base contact with a powerfist, and that at least one of your mooks DOES. This prevents the powerfist from using its Defenders React move to get to grips with your Captain, who is the only real threat to him. The fist is already based with another model, so it's not going anywhere!

The Captain is actually able to win the combat all by his lonesome if properly upgraded (relic blade, artificer armor), the Assault Marines arejust there to tie up models that can kill the Captain with one bad save.

 

I'll often attach my Biker Captain to a full squad of bikers (8+attack bike), and use this exact tactic. So long as you look at how the enemy is positioned before you charge, you can safely base the most threatening models with mooks, and free your Captain for some butt-kicking against junk models in the enemy squad.

 

Personally, I'd be very hesitant to charge anything with a whole host of S8 or ID-causing weapons. A 5-man Terminator Squad? Sure, you might get a couple on the charge with your Relic Blade, but most everything else will bounce. If you don't base the power sword wielding sergeant with your Captain, and all the fist-wielders with your mooks, you fail one 4++ save against a fist, and the captain evaporates, possibly giving up three wounds to CR!

[greatcrusade08]

yup, just as i said above a captain with assault squad is fine.. but as always people seem to know better.

 

just to add i use shrike with assault scouts and they do just fine, i actually took down belial and a command squad in TDA with ten scouts and shrike, granted all i had left was the fist sergeant and a single wound on the captain, but it was a good trade off.

[Ookami_81]

Honestly I think that C:SM JP units are underestimated and doesn't deserve the loathe some people seems to vow to them.

Maybe it's because BA JP units are much better ?

 

I never run a captain with JP along with a JP assault unit, but it seems a good choice. I tend to prefer JP chaplain for the attack rerolls, but then I think the aim of the squad is not the same. The JP chaplain support the RAS squad, the captain is supported by the RAS squad.

 

Has anyone tried to use a JP relic blade captain with JP vanguards with LCs, THs and SS ? Point sink, of course, but maybe really powerful and much more mobile than hammernators. And much more elegant, too (not that any PA marine equipment can be described as "noble weapons of a more civilised age" :) )

 

ShinyRhino, you use full strength bike squads ? I used to, and finally I was told that it wasn't that good for bikes, and advice was given to me to take minimal strength Melta bike squads (like 4 bikes, 2 meltaguns, MM AB), and average flamer/plasma bike squads (like 6 bikes, 2 flamers, combi-flamer, HB AB). Have you tried it ? I find the relative lack of resilience is compensated by more mobility (huge packs of bikes are somewhat unwieldly to move on the table) and more special weapons at the same number of bikes.

I attach my captain with flamer bike squads in 750-1500 pts games, and with a command squad otherwise (1500 - 2500 pts+).

[ShinyRhino]

ShinyRhino, you use full strength bike squads ? I used to, and finally I was told that it wasn't that good for bikes, and advice was given to me to take minimal strength Melta bike squads (like 4 bikes, 2 meltaguns, MM AB), and average flamer/plasma bike squads (like 6 bikes, 2 flamers, combi-flamer, HB AB). Have you tried it ? I find the relative lack of resilience is compensated by more mobility (huge packs of bikes are somewhat unwieldly to move on the table) and more special weapons at the same number of bikes.

I attach my captain with flamer bike squads in 750-1500 pts games, and with a command squad otherwise (1500 - 2500 pts+).

 

Yes, I surely do. I have two full-sized squads in my core force. One has powerfist, 2x melta, MM AB. The other has power weapon+meltabombs, 2x plasmaguns, HB AB. It's beautiful to see in an Annihilation mission. The enemy has to inflict 10 wounds against a unit that can turbo-boost, is T5, and has a 3+ save. Anything short of a Vindicator or LRBT is hard pressed to kill all of them, let alone both squads.

They are unwieldy on the table, but can form an effective gunline until the enemy gets near, then you just turbo out of the area and set up again. You will take casualties, and I've been exploring options for Morale mitigation, but in general they're rock-hard in a KP mission.

I always combat squad in objective missions, in various formations. I can toss all the specials in with the attack bike, freeing up the sergeant to ride with ablative bolter bikes, or go sergeant+specials for some high-Morale applicationof force while the attack bike zooms around being a thorn in the enemy's side. I love combat squads, because they're sooo versatile.

I've seent he meltaspam min-max biker lists, and hate them. They get eaten alive by anything that isn't mechanized. Tyranids can reliably beat them just by forming large lines of gribblies and closing the net. Seriously. Meltaspam bikers get eaten by TYRANIDS. No one gets eaten by Tyranids anymore!

[Ookami_81]

Yeah, meltaspam is fragile indeed. That's why you require heavier biker squads with HB AB and flamers to engage and destroy the little nids. Just like with the orks. I built the flamer squads with the precise intent of horde killing. Players in my local meta aren't used to biker lists, and often underestimate how much they can mess up hordes badly even in relative small numbers.

 

The beauty of the biker is that he can choose between its special weapon and its TLbolters: multi-usage combi-weapons for two bikers is just plain awesome. I remember a player yelling cheese when I killed half of one on his huge mobs with my flamer squad from afar... :)

 

It's strange you use power weapon on your melta squad: Don't you want to avoid CC at all costs with it ? Why use a power fist when you can add a combi-melta to your sarge ? I think it's cheaper, and you add a chance to kill a vehicle in the shooting phase, to allow, for example, another squad to charge the guys inside (if any) ?

[Lithanial]

To get back on topic,

 

The problem I have with an ASM squad bodyguard is not that they are generally ineffective; after all, they shred hordes! But more that with an ASM squad wanting to kill hordes while the Captain wants to kill supporting HQ's (Librarians, Farseers etc) and Elite infantry so they end up working against each other. You either have the captain being overkill or the ASM bouncing off the unit they charge.

 

If you could get a jump pack command squad like codex BA though it would be ideal.

 

I would love to see some examples of awesome bike commander conversions but somehow i don't think they will quite come up to the standards of this.

[ShinyRhino]

To get back on topic,

 

The problem I have with an ASM squad bodyguard is not that they are generally ineffective; after all, they shred hordes! But more that with an ASM squad wanting to kill hordes while the Captain wants to kill supporting HQ's (Librarians, Farseers etc) and Elite infantry so they end up working against each other. You either have the captain being overkill or the ASM bouncing off the unit they charge.

 

If you could get a jump pack command squad like codex BA though it would be ideal.

 

I would love to see some examples of awesome bike commander conversions but somehow i don't think they will quite come up to the standards of this.

 

While a jump packing Command Squad would be ideal, it just can't be done in C:SM. Honestly, when I use my Captain for killing, I never put him up against enemy HQs if I can help it. Too many of them have some trick or another to instakill our Captains. Force Weapons, Powerfists, Impant Attacks, etc can all make short work of a Marine Captain. I point my Captain at the line troops, and go for a combat resolution win to the melee. Barring that, I chop down as many bodies as I can with that S6 relic blade every turn. Captains are simply not close-combat powerhouses when compared to the options of other armies.

 

As for Korvydae, while he might be awfully pretty, he's armed TERRIBLY. A Captain with a jump pack and a thunder hammer strikes at I1 with 4 swings on the charge. Sounds sexy, but he's an Independent Character and so can be singled out in combat. The S of the hammer does nothing a relic blade can't already do against non-MCs. You're wasting the Captain's I5 by arming him with a hammer.

Ok, so I'll throw him at a walker or tank! you might say. Walkers can instakill him before he every swings, so that's right out. He can't attack unless he's based with the walker, and if he's based, he can be targeted. Tanks? Now you're wasting the WS5! You hit on a flat 6+/4+/Auto against tanks. You're better off putting the hammer on a squad sergeant. Taht way he can't be singled out, and isn't wasting WS5.

 

 

@Ookami: power weapons on my biker sergeants were a choice of ignorance when I first started building. I wasn't as versed in biker tactics when I first built them, so they're not optimal. However, they do provide some insurance in close combat. I can fight my way out of an MEQ, walker, or swarm tarpit with a powerfist. power weapon and meltabombs is largely useless, unless it's fighting MEQ fire support units (Long Fangs, Devvies, Havoks), and is destined to be phased out of the list.

[DarkGuard]

Give him a bolter and hellfire rounds with his relic blade, give him a Command Squad with 4 plasma guns in a Razorback,

Naw, give him a combi-plasma. It costs the same as hellfire rounds and does ultimately better with BS5, and you're likely to only rapid fire once per battle, anyway.

 

That being said, 4 plasmaguns in a razorback are just fine on their own. They really don't need a captain to keep them company, as that captain is better off leading a squad of th/ss termies, or riding around with a bunch of bikers.

 

But then I wouldn't have been able to use one of those awesome Angelus bolters in my Captain conversion :P

 

Seriously though, the other option for a Captain with a plasma Command Squad is Sicarius, he has a plasma pistol and lots of force buffing special abilities.

 

To the OP, I think the best way to get advise on this is to let us now your list and the metagame you're likely to face. 40K is never in vacuum, and different Captains with different bodyguards will lend themselves to different players.

[greatcrusade08]

Mr rhino has it spot on the nose, never underestimate I5 especially with a relic blade!!

Its best not to use generic HQs to target characters, leave that for EW powerhouses like Calgar and lysander.. generic HQs should be killing two or three MEQs a turn to help towards combat res and moreover every bod he kills cant attack back due to I5..

 

always target the squad, the ASM might not be culling your enemy in numbers, but your enemy will be having similar issues with the ASM's unless its a deathstar unit (in which case your nuts for charging it)...

[Lithanial]

Hah, i wasn't saying you should use the TH; just that the mini looked cool :P

 

Think you are under-estimating his anti-HQ ability though. A captain is easily the quickest way to kill a Librarian and the like.

[Gothical]

I like my Captain in a command Squad. Stick them in a Razorback and they can keep pace with other force elements. Either shooting or combat based, it can be kept cheap and fairly effective.