How to counter Blood Angels with Codex Marines?

[brainwashed]

I'm building up a Codex Marine Chapter (Go Imperial Fists!) and am in the process of painting up my first two tactical squads with Razorbacks and 10 Tactical Terminators on foot. The last few times I was in the local GW stores for models and supplies I saw a sea of Blood Angels on the tables. They look damn hard to stop.

 

Has anyone seen some good B&C posts that have general advice on how to counter the new Blood Angels codex? I don't see an effective way for me to shut down the fast tanks and transports of the BA's especially with out going to a very static gun line with missile launchers all over the board.

 

I did a few searches on Blood Angels and didn't see any real 'How to Counter Blood Angels' threads. Maybe we should start one?

 

I'm open to any advice people might have for a vanilla marine army to face your typical rhino rush Blood Angels army. Thanks all.

[Koremu]

Land Speeder Typhoons and Rifleman Dreadnoughts are the acknowledged primary Anti-Transport units.

[brainwashed]

Would you equate a 'Dakka Predator' armed with an Autocannon and two Heavy Bolters to a Land Speeder with a Typhoon Missile System and a Heavy Bolter? They are with in 5 points of one another.

 

I could foresee LOS issues with the much more static Predator in the back field, but of course the more maneuverable Land Speeder is far more fragile but puts out a stronger STR 8 shot - and two of them.

 

Hmm... I was hoping to be tank heavy with the Fists, but that Typhoon sounds interesting and would look amazing with my Land Speeder Storm.

 

The Thunderfire might be interesting as well in the back field as well instead of a Predator. It's ability to slow down the fast transports could be worth while.

[DerekLee688]

Dakka vs typhoon: I've never stacked them against each other. Mobility vs high armor is the main difference. The other would be slot considerations. Two typhoons in a single fast slot isn't pressing the C:SM. A single heavy slot is more in demand though.

[Tranc]

Hmm... I was hoping to be tank heavy with the Fists, but that Typhoon sounds interesting and would look amazing with my Land Speeder Storm.

 

If you want to stay fluffy you could also think about a combi-predator. 2 STR 9 shots + 2 STR 7 shots for 60 points cheaper than a pair of Typhoons which are 4 STR 8 shots (the 6 heavy bolter shots probably won't do much against transports).

[Iron Father Ferrum]

A Vindicator might be a decent investment. There are lots of jump troops in most Blood Angel armies, and an AP1 pie plate will kill a bunch and deny them their Feel No Pain rolls.

[Tanhausen]

AP1? I thought it was S10 AP2...but don't have the book with me now.

 

Also, Typhoon S8? Haven't checked the C:SM for a while but I thought only S5 AP5 template was available... or is that another nicety of the C:DA?

[Hellios]

AP1? I thought it was S10 AP2...but don't have the book with me now.

 

Also, Typhoon S8? Haven't checked the C:SM for a while but I thought only S5 AP5 template was available... or is that another nicety of the C:DA?

 

That is C:DA... normal marines have frag and krak missiles that fire twice if I remember right :D

 

It is pretty hard to give advise in general but I would take transports for your marines to stop out flanking flamestorm death or something like that... meltas are probably the special weapon to go with so that if the transports do get close you can pop them and maybe deny the charge as well...

 

Priests and Mephiston aint so bad AP2 (or better) weapons are the way to go... power weapons of different types will do in combat if you really need to get into combat...

 

Maybe try and turtle up and weaken them as they come to you so that when they arrive in a weakened state they can't pick off a part of your army at a time but have to face it all at once... Obviously this really depends on what they take.

 

Oh take a librarian!

[DarkGuard]

AP1? I thought it was S10 AP2...but don't have the book with me now.

 

Also, Typhoon S8? Haven't checked the C:SM for a while but I thought only S5 AP5 template was available... or is that another nicety of the C:DA?

 

Nah it's AP2, as I tell my stunned opponent every time I actually hit a vehicle. The only S10 AP1 pie plate in C:SM is Orbital Bombardment.

 

And the Typhoon Missile Launcher is a heavy 2 missile launcher for C:SM, while C:DA and C:BT keep the old TL S5 AP5 template. So yes the Typhoon can shoot two S8 shots a turn.

 

I agree with what everyone else here has said about dealing with transports, go for Typhoons, Riflemans or combi-preds. For the infantry you're going to want Sternguard (Vengeance rounds), quad-plasma gun Command Squads and Vindicators, though a Thunderfire would be very helpful with 4 S6 blasts.

[Brother Xeones]

If they're bringing lots of jump infantry to the table, you might consider a thunderfire cannon. Not only will it wound as well as 4 frag templates (which aint bad even against power armor) and slow down those pesky assault/Vanguard/Sangguard squads bent on getting stuck in with your men, but they'll also have to take dangerous terrain tests too. his is great if you want to focus most of your attention on another target and deal with that squad later.

 

Blood Angels are quite effective at spamming all sorts of different units so it's hard to make general suggestions. If they go with AV13 spam Baal Preds, Vindicators, and Dreads) you'll want meltas and maybe a few lascannons to knock them out. If they are running Razorback assault cannon spam, you'll need Rifleman Dreads, Typhoons, etc. If they are running lots of jumppackers, then normal marine killing weapons (and the aforementioned T-fire) are probably what you'll want.

 

Typically try to avoid their Dreadnoughts—any of them—as they are usually better at CC and close range than what C:SM has. If CC is inevitable, use dreadnoughts to lock down Furiosos and DC dreads with blood talons, and use hidden fists/hammers to kill the ones with DCCWs. Blood talons are only S6 (or S7 w/ furious charge) and don't get their additional attacks against targets with an armor value so things should go well for any SM dread against these.

[brainwashed]

I've purchased everything in what was my planned list aside from the sniper scouts and the heavy tanks - I own the transports. Is this an appropriate forum to get feedback on what Heavy Support choices to change in my actual planned army list? It's still on topic for anti-BA tactics in my opinion but I don't want to step on toes.

 

Lysander

 

10 TDA with 2 Assault Cannon and 2 Chain Fists

 

(x2) 10 man Combat Squadded Tactical Squads with Lascannon/Melta/Srg with Power Fist - mounted in Assault Cannon Razorbacks

 

5 man Scout Squad with BP/CCW and Srg with Power Fist + combi melta mounted in Land Speeder Storm

*Lysander, Terminators and 2 Razorbacks stay together and move forward as a mobile gun line with 4 Assault Cannon, Storm with scouts in protected position but can counter assault to support Terminators and help force LD checks with Cerebus Launcher*

 

 

5 man Scout Squad with Camo Cloaks and BP/CCW and Srg with Power Fist + combi melta

 

8 man Scout Squad with Sniper Rifles + Missile Launcher +Camo Cloaks and Telion

 

2 Dakka Predators with Auto Cannon and HB

 

1 Vindicator

 

List total: 2000 points

 

*Tanks and these two scouts squads stay in back field to hold objectives and provide long range fire support and hold deployment zone objectives*

 

I'm totally flexible on changing the back field components. I might be too scout heavy actually. If I drop the back field 5 man squad CCW scouts I have the points to run this set up with the Speeders as separate Fast Attack choices:

 

8 man Scout Squad with Sniper Rifles + Missle Launcher +Camo Cloaks and Telion

 

1 Combi Predator with Auto Cannon and LC Sponsons

 

1 Vindicator

 

1 Land Speeder with Typhoon Launchers and Heavy Bolter

 

1 Land Speeder with Typhoon Launchers and Multi Melta

 

Edit:

I should have said this in this post previously but work is busy today. The type of BA army I fear most is the mechanized Scouting Flamestorm Cannon Baal variant with many transports. I can't think of a good way to counter the fast vehicles and all of the great replies are a huge help. Thanks everyone.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Nah it's AP2, as I tell my stunned opponent every time I actually hit a vehicle. The only S10 AP1 pie plate in C:SM is Orbital Bombardment.

 

I stand corrected, but my point remains valid -- AP2 also precludes FnP.

[Chengar Qordath]

Nah it's AP2, as I tell my stunned opponent every time I actually hit a vehicle. The only S10 AP1 pie plate in C:SM is Orbital Bombardment.

 

I stand corrected, but my point remains valid -- AP2 also precludes FnP.

Not to mention that the Strength 10 kills FnP as well on account of inflicting instant death.

[Hellios]

Nah it's AP2, as I tell my stunned opponent every time I actually hit a vehicle. The only S10 AP1 pie plate in C:SM is Orbital Bombardment.

 

I stand corrected, but my point remains valid -- AP2 also precludes FnP.

Not to mention that the Strength 10 kills FnP as well on account of inflicting instant death.

For most but you have people like Mephiston who is T6 (I think?) who needs that AP2 goodness to kill him.

[DarkGuard]

Nah it's AP2, as I tell my stunned opponent every time I actually hit a vehicle. The only S10 AP1 pie plate in C:SM is Orbital Bombardment.

 

I stand corrected, but my point remains valid -- AP2 also precludes FnP.

 

Well still important when shooting at vehicles ;).

 

But yeah, AP2 invalidates FnP. So Vindicators can be good at foot sloggers, but then against mech spam they won't be so good. It really comes down to what the guys at your store are running at the time.

[brainwashed]

Does anyone think that the above list is too scout heavy and that I should go with 2 Typhoons instead? ;)

[DerekLee688]

Typhoons with krak+HB would kill way more marines than snipers will.

[brainwashed]

What should I place on my back field objective then? Do I just drop the sniper scouts entirely and run an unmounted Tactical Squad?

 

Telion in an large scout squad looks pretty nice on paper and with Bolstered Defenses and Camo Cloaks will be hard to dislodge from cover.

[chaplain belisarius]

i find lots of plasma cannons, lascannon, plasma guns and vindicators work wonders (shoot them all but shoot the death company first!)

 

If they are going to charge you and you can charge them first...do it (otherwise they get furious charge-not good)

 

Id take less scouts but thats because i dont really rate them...

 

Good luck!

 

(world eaters against blood angels is great fun...)

[DarkGuard]

What should I place on my back field objective then? Do I just drop the sniper scouts entirely and run an unmounted Tactical Squad?

 

Telion in an large scout squad looks pretty nice on paper and with Bolstered Defenses and Camo Cloaks will be hard to dislodge from cover.

 

I use a 10 man Tact Squad with plasma cannon and flamer with a Razorback with TL-LC. the squad sits in cover on the objective, and provides covering fire against infantry, while the Razorback deploys separately and snipes tanks. If the squad comes under significant firepower they flee into the Razorback which parks on the objective.

 

Alternatively have a small bare bones Tact Squad in a Razorback, or if you want to use Telion a 5 man scout unit with camo cloaks and maybe a heavy weapon. Basically you need a unit that you know will be durable and stick about.

[hazardousZERO]

I like your list but on your termie squads I would swich out the assault cannons for some cyclone missile launchers. Lysanders bolter drill is amazing and if you take the CML you can still shoot the storm bolters. Plus as we all know a missile launcher is one of the most versital weapons in the game.

[greatcrusade08]

If they're bringing lots of jump infantry to the table, you might consider a thunderfire cannon. Not only will it wound as well as 4 frag templates (which aint bad even against power armor) and slow down those pesky assault/Vanguard/Sangguard squads bent on getting stuck in with your men, but they'll also have to take dangerous terrain tests too.

 

They would have to take dangerous terrain tests yes, but jump packs can move freely over terrain so it wouldnt slow them down

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Yes, but they count as moving in difficult terrain for the duration of the movement phase, meaning that they have to take dangerous terrain tests when they lift off. . . and again when they land. Yes?

[Justicar Valius]

I like your list but on your termie squads I would swich out the assault cannons for some cyclone missile launchers. Lysanders bolter drill is amazing and if you take the CML you can still shoot the storm bolters. Plus as we all know a missile launcher is one of the most versital weapons in the game.

Agreed.

 

Typhoons may be fragile but remember they are still far away and how many BA do you see with lots of long range weapons?

[greatcrusade08]

Yes, but they count as moving in difficult terrain for the duration of the movement phase, meaning that they have to take dangerous terrain tests when they lift off. . . and again when they land. Yes?

 

They only have to take the one test per turn even if they start and finish in cover.. i guess my point was if firing a thunderfire use the S6 shot to wound on twos, youd do far more damage than hoping the enemy rolls a couple of ones in the next turn..