How to counter Blood Angels with Codex Marines?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Yes, but they count as moving in difficult terrain for the duration of the movement phase, meaning that they have to take dangerous terrain tests when they lift off. . . and again when they land. Yes?

 

They only have to take the one test per turn even if they start and finish in cover.. i guess my point was if firing a thunderfire use the S6 shot to wound on twos, youd do far more damage than hoping the enemy rolls a couple of ones in the next turn..

 

Hmmm. I've been misinformed then.

 

The problem with this scenario though is that any Blood Angel player worth the name is going to load up on Sanguinary Priests and keep most (if not all) of his squads in their bubble. TFCs have no way of punching through FNP. You might be able to overwhelm them with saves, but I think hitting those hordes of jump troops with plasma cannons and Vindicator shells is still far and away better than a TFC.

[Sternguard sergeant McColl]

Can you take FnP against dangerous terrain wounds? I believe it negates armor, which would mean it was counted as AP2? Either way have ten+ marines taking dangerous a turn is quite hilarious.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

I like your list but on your termie squads I would swich out the assault cannons for some cyclone missile launchers. Lysanders bolter drill is amazing and if you take the CML you can still shoot the storm bolters. Plus as we all know a missile launcher is one of the most versital weapons in the game.

 

 

+1 about Lysander and TDA tactical w/x2 cmL's

also if it hasnt been mentioned.. i'd keep the alpha striking LSS scouts

but i'd drop the TLAsC on the razorback and take the rhino instead

and maybe think about adding "chronus"(sp) to one of your Dakka preds

for 10 hit on 2+ shots at 24 inches+the benfits of having extra armor and a 2 hit power fist if he get's his ride jacked by a podded dread or other anti tank alpha strike unit..../ for what like 165pts? worth it IMO.

 

 

"8 man Scout Squad with Sniper Rifles + Missile Launcher +Camo Cloaks and Telion" for about the same point cost:

i would consider replacing this unit with a 7 man stern guard squad w/ x2 PC, for picking out your targets, like you would be using telion, and you would also get the ap3 bolter shots, when they hit your line.. you could, join lysander to this squad if your Tda's are off fisting some Dp dread/ or flying liibby in a box...

 

further thought would be to drop both razor back and replace them with rhinos, for moving your tacts, or blocking his LOS or tank shocking his Assault squads... the turn before they assault....(insert evil laugh here hahahahaha)

[DarkGuard]

Can you take FnP against dangerous terrain wounds? I believe it negates armor, which would mean it was counted as AP2? Either way have ten+ marines taking dangerous a turn is quite hilarious.

 

No you can't take FnP against dangerous terrain wounds, as it doesn't allow armour saves. Page 75 in the main rulebook if people want to check, as the bottom of the FnP entry in a list with examples. I always thought you did get FnP, but as me and my rather annoyed friend found out you can't, and so he lost 3 of his Death Company after jumping out of cover.

 

So maybe waiting for the 1s which ignore armour and FnP might be as good as lots of S6 hits that allow armour and FnP...

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Hmmmm. That does change the dynamic a bit. And while a TFC still doesn't top my list of anti-Blood Angel units, it certainly does get bonus points and might weasel its way back into an all-comers list soon.

[greatcrusade08]

I use two of the little blighters and they are much cursed by my opponents..

Infact i find they are most useful against marine armies, my favourite tactic is to destroy a rhino and when they disembark all tightly packed i unleash my S6 shot.. its not uncommon to kill over half the squad in a single turn.

[brainwashed]

Thanks for all the great feedback guys. I feel like I have several more options to take than I did before.

 

Despite me liking the looks of the Assault Cannon Termies more, the new rules for the Cyclone Missile Launchers can't be beat - especially with Lysander with the squad using Bolter Drill.

 

I also like the idea of adding Sturmguard over the scouts... But the reason I was using Scouts is that they are scoring units. Maybe Kantor + Strumguard would be a good option.

 

I'm tempted to try TFC's now as well. Those seems like a very flexible platform.

 

Thanks all.

[Brother Xeones]

If they're bringing lots of jump infantry to the table, you might consider a thunderfire cannon. Not only will it wound as well as 4 frag templates (which aint bad even against power armor) and slow down those pesky assault/Vanguard/Sangguard squads bent on getting stuck in with your men, but they'll also have to take dangerous terrain tests too.

 

They would have to take dangerous terrain tests yes, but jump packs can move freely over terrain so it wouldnt slow them down

 

I stand corrected. I double-checked the rules and you are correct that a dangerous terrain test won't slow down jump packers. Oh well...

[Brother_Fatiswon]

Thanks for all the great feedback guys. I feel like I have several more options to take than I did before.

 

Despite me liking the looks of the Assault Cannon Termies more, the new rules for the Cyclone Missile Launchers can't be beat - especially with Lysander with the squad using Bolter Drill.

 

I also like the idea of adding Sturmguard over the scouts... But the reason I was using Scouts is that they are scoring units. Maybe Kantor + Strumguard would be a good option.

 

I'm tempted to try TFC's now as well. Those seems like a very flexible platform.

 

Thanks all.

IMO for bolter drill... i know no one is going to like this, but test play it, thru proxy.. you'll see... is Lysander, x10 sternguard w/ x10 Stormbolters (what?!?)+libby w/ avenger+null in TDA w/SS+ Landraider crusader w/ chronus driving. AV 14, with extra armor/10 re-rolled shots at 24" that hit on 2+ all while moving...x2 SS to take Ap3/2/1 shots, and Bolter drill on 20 shots at 24" on the jump out... or on the move, or pre charge into assault where, the aVenger and the Fist of dorn will KILL, oh did i forget the hood and the forced re rolling of Inv saves? all for what? 900 ish points? i know stupid death star players....

cheap form of this is pod+Lysander+libby+SB weilding 09x sternguard... 600 and take gate instead of avenger to re deploy

[Koremu]

Thanks for all the great feedback guys. I feel like I have several more options to take than I did before.

 

Despite me liking the looks of the Assault Cannon Termies more, the new rules for the Cyclone Missile Launchers can't be beat - especially with Lysander with the squad using Bolter Drill.

 

I also like the idea of adding Sturmguard over the scouts... But the reason I was using Scouts is that they are scoring units. Maybe Kantor + Strumguard would be a good option.

 

I'm tempted to try TFC's now as well. Those seems like a very flexible platform.

 

Thanks all.

IMO for bolter drill... i know no one is going to like this, but test play it, thru proxy.. you'll see... is Lysander, x10 sternguard w/ x10 Stormbolters (what?!?)+libby w/ avenger+null in TDA w/SS+ Landraider crusader w/ chronus driving. AV 14, with extra armor/10 re-rolled shots at 24" that hit on 2+ all while moving...x2 SS to take Ap3/2/1 shots, and Bolter drill on 20 shots at 24" on the jump out... or on the move, or pre charge into assault where, the aVenger and the Fist of dorn will KILL, oh did i forget the hood and the forced re rolling of Inv saves? all for what? 900 ish points? i know stupid death star players....

cheap form of this is pod+Lysander+libby+SB weilding 09x sternguard... 600 and take gate instead of avenger to re deploy

Why use Storm Bolters? You're paying points to make them worse.

[Malthe]

I think he's joking (least I hope so!) ^_^

Probably a comment to the Lysander + 10 termies w. 2xCML suggestion...

That's, what, 660 points? To counter Blood Angels? Not that volume of fire ain't the way to deal with FNP, but seriously, one (most likely two) fast vindicators one the table and this is what you propose..?

Be my guest :P

 

On another note:

Sternguards are great of course, like they are against any other PA army.

Though quite expensive, and once you get FC'ed, they're only one attack per model better than you average Tactical squad. Which is great, but not what you're paying for!

Still, if they are scoring, your BA opponent willl eventually need to go get them, meaning you'll have a decent chance of destroying what ever is closing in on them.

Providing you deploy in cover and back them up with some countercharging anti-armour (that's a Dreadnought, you know)...

That's still alot of points, but very effective.

 

Thunderfire cannons I dislike, versus just about anything.

But that's just my personal distaste against anything static (why I play BA as opposed to codex marines - I hate not being abel to actually move my tanks without losing firepower).

I seams to me that a good player would simply avoid the fireing lines of a static artillery piece (and devastators). Which is only made more easy by fast transports and plenty of jump packs.

Also it dies very quickly once engaged.

Of course the damage output is pretty good, should you get to shoot at something.

 

Personally I'd start with a librarian (you don't want either a blood lance to your raider or that FC assault squad to reroll misses, do you now?) as my HQ.

Then probably some sternguards with mayby some plasma, a rifleman or two (as in 'bye bye rhinos').

For troops I'd take your average two tac squads with multi-melta, plasmagun, powerfist (so many SC not immune to instant death) and rhino.

They can harm just about anything, and really makes your opponent think twice before going close to them. Also they win your games for you, thus making them high priority on your opponents list of targets.

Then perhaps a pair of mm-attackbikes or speeders to flame a possible land raider spam (or the vindicators!), definitetly a typhoon or two as well.

I'd round it off with some vindicators. Yes the BA player's are better than your's, but still - they ignore FNP and PA and TDA, meaning any infantry within range is toast, providing you're not terribly unlucky with scattering.

 

 

Blood Angels are normally just; fast vehicles which you can handle almost like you would mech eldar, except the content of BA vehicles are tougher than eldars and no spirit stones!

Or, razorback spam, which really the Space Wolfs do better... Meaning lots of targets for your typhoons and riflemen.

Or, plenty of very durable jump troops, whom you should pieplate, tarpit, and plasmagun to death.

 

Of course the good BA list has all those elements, thus you really need to be prepared for all of it!

 

But really, so is the case with every codex :D

[Ming]

Imperial Fists and Lysander?

 

I think Lysander is heavy on fists, heavy on heavy weapons. He leads a sledgehammer force.

 

Against BAEQs:

 

Lysander

 

Termie Librarian with spells to make him s6 and I10

 

Termie assault squad 5 to 10, 40-60 on lcs and hammers

 

Termie squad, 5-10, assault cannons for every 5

 

Tac squad, 8 bolters, 1 mg, 1 cmg, PF, rhino or pod, hkm or dwml

Tac squad, 8 bolters, 1 mg, 1 cmg, PF, rhino or pod, hkm or dwml

 

vindie, vindie, vindie

 

going larger:

 

scout squad with beacon, sniper rifles, hb, PW, pp (or 2 squds)

 

x amount of speeder typhoons.

 

going ever larger:

 

Raiders.....

[Bannus]

Let's keep the discussion focused on tactics and not list building.

 

As far as tactics go, a lot of what applies against Necrons (as they are 3+ w/FNP) should also work against the BA.

 

The inexpensive plasma cannon should do wonders against them. :sweat:

[Kapitalist-Pig]

Or you could just try not to counter them and let them walk right through you. LOL j/k

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

5 man dev squad x2 PC add more if desired

 

playtested, approved. turn one lascannon hits rhino explodes, plasma cannons target exposed blood angels, 1 survivor.

 

turn 2 another rhino wrecked, plasma cannons kill second squad outright

 

 

alpha strike gun line them and hope you can cripple them fast enough before they smash into you with a bunch of stuff. it CAN work and it has for me

[brainwashed]

Even more great replies. Thanks all. :)

 

I love the list suggestions and they help but I am looking more for general anti-Fast Vehicle mounted Blood Angel tactics than list help... but the list help is appreciated.

 

I am leaning leaning towards the pop transports then vape the BA's once they are dismounted strategy which does lead towards Plasma Cannons and Vindicators. I'm going to try to ignore their Baals and Vindi's if they bring them which from what I have seen they are bringing them.

 

In the list I have going now I have a Single Vindicator and 3 Plasma Cannons in Tac Squads to try to vaporize the marines on foot and am then using 2x Typhoons and a lone Combi Predator to pop Transports. Two Razorbacks with TL Assault Cannons and 2 more Assault Cannons in the Termies, if I don't change to the appealing Cyclone ML's. I love the Plasma Cannon idea in general and am surprised I didn't consider them. I used to run them quite a bit in 3rd edition and loved them.

 

I am sticking with Land Speeder Storm with 5 CCW Scouts and a Sarge with Combi Melta and Powerfist mainly because I love the model so much, but also becuse it's a great wild card unit and if they counter charge a unit that assaults the Termies the -2 Leadership could be decisive.

 

Thanks for the support and suggestions. Bolter and Chainsword has a great community.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Nonono. You ignore grots and Eldar Guardians. You don't ignore Vindicators. Use drop podding/deep striking meltas to pop those, or long-range lascannon fire from, say, a dreadnought or Land Raider. Their Vindis are Fast, too, so they're going to be in your base killing your dudes on Turn 2 if you don't deal with them quick.

[chapter master 454]

If the guy is rolling sanguinary priest spam (which would be the full 9 they can take) then there will be no dreadnoughts that are rubbish on the field for them (unless he take rifleman dreads which I doubt). If he's spamming foot sloggers, vindicate with extreme force. Take care if lemartes and death company come to the field, lets just say lemartes is a chaplin you can't pick out in CC for the DC (read his rules, he gives them the re-roll to hit and wound bonus but is considered part of the squad. I personally field one 10 man with lemartes whenever I play BA) and even on the recieving charge end of shrike, 3 men with lemartes (they all had power weapons btw at that point, I roll 5 power weapons and 5 normals) wiped out shrikes assault marines and reduced a combat squad to nothing before dying off. In short: you NEVER assault death company. No ifs or buts, not unless your lysander (in that case the death company better hope he ain't the closest target!).

 

As for their tanks: yeah, their faster but it doesn't add much. Preds are more mobile but they should already be in the best firing line, vindicators are still the same bar an extra close helping of 6" extra. Their only buffed tanks are razorbacks and rhinos really. If they had venerable dreadnoughts and master of the forges then I would play them non-stop but they don't so in general I give them 4/10 for the codex (HORRENDEOUS fluff, no venerable dreadnoughts, no master of the forges and they had the nerves to put dreads into heavy support. lost 3 for the fluff, and one from everything else).

 

Back on topic: Just use what you normally use against marines; plasma. Speaking as a nutter of plasma (I personally say it is the best weapon of all time, not even melta can compare to it) I would say just drop plasma cannon blasts after blasts on them until they start glowing. If you have ruins on your table, try and position yourself on the top floor whenever you can, if they have to roll increments of 3 on the dice to get up one level then it means if two levels seperate you tehn they need 6 to charge. That can buy you another plasma blast.

 

As for vechiles: razors carry 6 dudes, rhinos carry 10. Rhinos first, razors second. And remember, frags will do better against MEQs than kraks (however if someone could do the maths, I believe you just need to hit 3 guys with the template to have more result than kraks). In short: spam typhoons and plasma. Not sure but I would believe you can field 9 typhoons for something like...810 points. In a 1750 or even 1500 point game that leaves plenty for tacticals with plasma and your HQ (plasma cannons for 5 points? Oh you just made me smile. Wait why are plasma guns 10 points?)

[DerekLee688]

I'd rather toss kraks from typhoons at FNP MEQ; 3's to hit 2's to wound, instant death. I'll use frags if they're not FNP and in something like deepstrike formation or disembarked.

 

I don't know if it's already been sugested, but PC spam seems practical in larger points. If you have a heavy slot open then you can get 4 PC's that can be meched into position and combat squaded to two units of two cannons, or just 5 guys with two cannons are 140pts. Sternguard can do it in an elite slot for 145pts. Plasma cannons may not be priced efficent for most of what we face but I think FNP MEQ warrants the expense.

[templargdt]

+1 For Kraks against BA infantry. I played a BA last weekend and was consistantly hitting 3 dudes w/ frags. Totally useless between 3+/FNP.

 

Like other guys have been saying, plasma and Vindicators, plus lascannons to kill the transports.

[DarkGuard]

I'd rather toss kraks from typhoons at FNP MEQ; 3's to hit 2's to wound, instant death. I'll use frags if they're not FNP and in something like deepstrike formation or disembarked.

 

I don't know if it's already been sugested, but PC spam seems practical in larger points. If you have a heavy slot open then you can get 4 PC's that can be meched into position and combat squaded to two units of two cannons, or just 5 guys with two cannons are 140pts. Sternguard can do it in an elite slot for 145pts. Plasma cannons may not be priced efficent for most of what we face but I think FNP MEQ warrants the expense.

 

What you mean not price efficient? A 10 man Tactical Squad can take one for 5pts, that's some good firepower for it's points. Sure Devy's cost a lot more, but Sternguard and Dreads get theirs at decent prices. Squeeze as many cheap plasma cannons as you can against BA, really helps with those FnP. In a recent game managed to get 6 out of 7 Death Company who had just jumped out of a Rhino. As I say time again my plasma cannon is a better performer than my Vindicators :).

[DerekLee688]

5pts. for the cannon, 170 for the squad. They dangle cannons that are cheaper than guns, that's how they get you. Rhino is extra, DP is the same but they have to walk back to the house.

 

Now I have to figure out how to fit more plasma cannons in my army that the guard can take in a single tank...

[DarkGuard]

5pts. for the cannon, 170 for the squad. They dangle cannons that are cheaper than guns, that's how they get you. Rhino is extra, DP is the same but they have to walk back to the house.

 

Now I have to figure out how to fit more plasma cannons in my army that the guard can take in a single tank...

 

If you're taking a plasma cannon you don't need a Rhino. I'd much rather have them sitting in cover where they don't get rejected a turns shooting because my Rhino got glanced. Those points I put into a Razorback which I consider a different entity to the squad.

[Br0ther Rafen]

As for their tanks: yeah, their faster but it doesn't add much. Preds are more mobile but they should already be in the best firing line, vindicators are still the same bar an extra close helping of 6" extra. Their only buffed tanks are razorbacks and rhinos really. If they had venerable dreadnoughts and master of the forges then I would play them non-stop but they don't so in general I give them 4/10 for the codex (HORRENDEOUS fluff, no venerable dreadnoughts, no master of the forges and they had the nerves to put dreads into heavy support. lost 3 for the fluff, and one from everything else).

 

I TOTALLY AGREE with you my friend I hate mat ward for making the BA's fluff so terrible <_<

Must say though, they do have some really awsome army choices (DC spam w/Lemartes is awsome) so i'd give a 6/10 for the crap fluff

[thade]

Couple of unanswered points I saw throughout the thread:

- Mephiston is in fact T6; stay AWAY from him. Use long ranged anti-transport to take him down and stay away from him. A librarian can shut him down (Njal is esp good at this) but even without his psychic powers, Meph is still a beast. He is a *melee* beast but not a ranged beast. Nevertheless, he can move 12" in a turn (if he gets the power off...at which he has three chances if he's persistent) and he's fleet, so he can assault 24" if he gets lucky (or you get unlucky). Odds are he'll fall just shy of that...and good thing for you, as 24" is effective marine firing range. Keep your boys outside of 24" from Meph and whittle him down.

- You cannot use Sternguard special ammo with Storm Bolters; this has come up a few times before on the OR board, go post a search there if you're curious as to why not.

 

Dreadnoughts - esp. venerables and iron clads - are not a bad choice for a classic BA list. They rush you with their assault troop spam and - lo' and behold - get tarpitted by a pair of dreads. Now they're banking on a lucky grenade or power fist hit.

 

Sternguard with bolters (and perhaps a combi or two) will give you access to Vengeance rounds; AP3 can be really nice. A command squad with plasma is ever the classic anti-marine device.

 

Vindicators are excellent, but be aware that 1. BA have those two and 2. BA vindis (and any other tank they have that's based on the Rhino chasis) is a Fast moving vehicle and can move 6" more than yours in any circumstance.

 

Devestators, tanks, maybe an assault squad or two of your own to counter-charge...and gun-line. Fortifiy yourself up and open fire as they approach. Ground their transports and use the Vindis to try and pin/wipe out DSing assault squads. Keep your assault team(s) hidden behind your lines and use them to charge into any combat you get mired in. Assault Scouts are actually decent for this; I have more than once successfully used a 90 point scout assault squad to counter charge and save (either by intervention or directly cutting off) my dev squads from a drooling pack of Ork Boyz.