So why on earth should I use speeders at all?

[CrushThem]

Can someone break down the pro's, con's, and general abilities of speeders?

 

 

Regards,

Crush

[HsojVvad]

I am not good rules wise or pros or cons, sorry about that, but having a bunch of speeders would look cool though. How effective that would be, I have no idea. I havn't read any posts of people using multiple speeders, so I don't think it's that good, but just because I haven't read it dosn't mean it's not though.

[Gillyfish]

Well, this is going to be situational and dependent upon your opponent and your own list.

 

Personally, I have found speeders to be very useful mobile weapons platforms, that can often be moved to hit side or rear armour of tanks or simply to add firepower where you need it most. That's in the context of a 'mixed' DA army (i.e. a bit of each of the three 'wings').

 

That said, I try to field armies where the speeder is one of a number of targets - my opponent needs to decide between the dreadnought, the Predator or the speeder. Some opponents will go for the predator as the biggest threat, others will go for the speeder.

 

They are fragile, but if used correctly (constantly moving them and limiting return fire through the use of intervening terrain/miniatures) they can last a surprising amount of time. Their mobility is their key asset and protection. Has your opponent moved lots of units to try and catch your speeder? Then move flat out for a turn and get out of that area.

 

So, they are excellent support units, but don't expect miracles.

 

Does that help you?

[CrushThem]

I was reading up on the rules for them and I saw that they can only move 6 inches if they'd like to shoot all their weapons. I don't get it, I thought speeders were supposed to be "fast"? I'm going to be building a ravenwing army coming up here soon and figured i'd get the skinny before I commit fully.

[Hellios]

I was reading up on the rules for them and I saw that they can only move 6 inches if they'd like to shoot all their weapons. I don't get it, I thought speeders were supposed to be "fast"? I'm going to be building a ravenwing army coming up here soon and figured i'd get the skinny before I commit fully.

 

Depends what weapons they have (and most vehicles have to be stationary), if you have a weapon that can fire at or under S4 like the Tyhoon missile launcher you can fire that in frag mode + a HB or AC after moving 12... and if you are keeping your speeder at far range for light armour duty with the Krak missile then most other weapons won't helpt that much...

 

Another bonys is depending on where you are playing some dark angel speeders are scoring... and can move 24 inches in a turn... hide at the back do a few shots maybe then rush at the end of the game for objectives... to score or contest.

[breng77]

I play with 3 speeders in my list with multimeltas and typhoons ML (ours don't have frag or krak options) This keeps the speeders cheap at 75 points, and allows them to be moblie as often you will not care to shoot both weapons, as a s 5 weapon does little against tanks and a melta does little against infantry. I find them useful for a few reasons: 1.) They are cheap so if they die it is no big loss. 2.) They make a good platform for a multimelta increasing its range to 36" or 24" for 2d6 armor pen. 3.) They are great for late game objective contesting as they can move 24" and fly over terrain and other models to get there. 4.) They are a pretty big distraction as most mech armies will not leave them alone at least until the melta is blown off (though sometimes they get ignored after that which has worked for me in objective missions)

[HsojVvad]

Another bonys is depending on where you are playing some dark angel speeders are scoring... and can move 24 inches in a turn... hide at the back do a few shots maybe then rush at the end of the game for objectives... to score or contest.

Not all DA speeders are scoring. Only the DA RWA speeders are scoring.

[Mystic Lemur]

Another bonys is depending on where you are playing some dark angel speeders are scoring... and can move 24 inches in a turn... hide at the back do a few shots maybe then rush at the end of the game for objectives... to score or contest.

Not all DA speeders are scoring. Only the DA RWA speeders are scoring.

 

Hence the "some" in his post, I would imagine. Thanks for clarifying, though. The same can be said about our Attack Bikes and, honestly, I have found the Multi Melta AB to be more useful than the AC/HB speeder as far as scoring units go. More efficient points-wise, too.

 

I can easily imagine a wedge of speeders being led by Sammy swooping in to destroy the unprepared enemy, and I think it would be fun to play. Honestly, though, I just don't like them.

 

They can be good for armor saturation, but since they are susceptible to smaller arms they sometimes just give your enemy's basic troops something to shoot at when everything else is out of range. Don't expect your opponent to waste too many lascannon or autocannon shots at them if you still have transports/tanks on the table. The biggest advantage, IMO, is their ability to ignore terrain that a bike would have to go around. OTOH, it's hard to get a cover save with a speeder and still be able to fire.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Written for BT players, but I trust you can extrapolate what is of DA use :pinch:

 

LAND SPEEDERS.

 

Our best FAST ATTACK unit.

The cheapest way of getting Multi-meltas onto the table, the most manoeuvrable and not competing with Dreadnoughts or Terminators in the FOC. Brilliant.

 

+++

 

Multi meltas;

They are primarily a vehicle that brings the fearsome Multi-melta to the table. Having a 12” MELTA range and being able to deep-strike or move 12” is a powerful combination. The 24” threat bubble is the term I’ll be using, though I did not coin the phrase.

 

1 shot. 4/6 hit. 5/36 glance & 21/36 penetrate AV 14. 1/6 destroy & 3/6 destroy = 272/1296 or 20.99%

21% is nothing to bank on, but if you think that is a 250+ pt tank gone, that makes it more interesting....

and generally the odds get better from there....

 

This makes the Multi melta Land Speeder a fantastic Anti Tank buy. For so little outlay, you get a potential Goliath slayer.

 

+++

 

Heavy bolters and Assault cannons;

I just don’t think that points wise, they are a good idea for Templars.

A Dakka Pred costs 118 pts (which is expensive, by the way)

2 Preds is 240

5 Speeders cost a similar price.

That’s 4 HB + 2 Auto cannons (in AV 13/11) against 5 HB (in AV 10).

The Predators bring more shots in a tougher shell.

 

How about with Assault cannons?

Assault Cannons are amazing. They can shred Medium Infantry and do better against Armour than Las cannons. Even with such flexibility, they don’t do as well against Armour as a Multi melta does, and when you are paying 15 pts more for the HB + AC combination, I don’t think you are buying something that your force really needs.

 

Of course, there are always exceptions to the general rule.

Dark Eldar do not need the Multi melta grunt, and the Anti Infantry rip that a HB + AC brings, plus being solid against AV 10, will work well against them.

Craftworld Eldar don’t have much in the way of choice Armour targets, and the Wave Serpent ignores MELTA for penetration. They do have lots of expensive Medium Infantry though....

Daemons and Tyranids have such little Armour between them, the torrent of the fire brought by HB + AC is far more useful

 

+++

 

Heavy Flamers;

These do merit thinking about.

A Heavy Flamer is a horrific weapon that incinerates anything not MEq or better. All it needs is one whoosh and whole squads of Aspect Warriors can disappear. One flame from it will kill 2 Marines from 9 consistently. That’s 30 pts from one shot. I have killed 14 Ard boyz in one well placed flame. That’s 14 Neophytes worth!

It’s ability to kill infantry is unquestionable.

 

The harder to answer question is, does it help the Land Speeder?

 

1] The Land Speeder is being bought to pop Armour. Anything that doesn’t contribute another effective gun is a waste of points and dilutes the purpose of the unit. TRUE.

2] The Land Speeder is being bought to pop Armour.... then what? After running out of targets, the Multi melta is quite useless as general purpose gun (although TEq will still be a good choice). For the cost of a Neophyte you turn the one trick pony into a 2-D unit. It is already close to the foe ~ you will already be within 12” to use the MELTA effectively. Being able to switch to Flame as opportunities present themselves is valuable. TRUE.

3] Deploying via deep-strike brings randomness to where the Speeder shows up. Games themselves are chaotic events and your foe and dice do not always follow your carefully crafted plan. It is nice to be able to switch to Flame should you scatter away from that Armour and right next to that infantry squad (who can destroy the Speeder with light-arms fire)

4] Survivability and Function is added with a second weapon. If your foe rolls a gun destroyed against your Speeder, it is nearly useless. If he rolls that result a second time, your Speeder is destroyed. With a second weapon, that is no longer true. If he destroys the Multi melta, you still have the Flamer, which can penetrate AV 10....

 

I am not saying Heavy Flamers are compulsory, but I am saying they are worth thinking about, and seem to have been written off because the complementary nature they have with the Multi melta might not be apparent straight away.

 

+++

 

Deployment;

The real choice when using LS is how to get them into the fray.

 

Deep strike;

They can be deployed via deep-strike much like a kamikaze pilot, in an attempt to destroy that choice target. All or nothing.

This tactic gains tenability in an All Drop Pod army due to safety in numbers.

Roughly 3/6 your army shows up on T2, and another 2/6 on T3.

With so much MELTA turning up on his flank, you’ll be making some kind of a dent on his Armour and reduce returning firepower.

 

They don’t need to be used so rashly, even from deep-strike. Terrain, flank positioning and attack co-ordination are all sound ideas. Just because they can be thrown at the enemy doesn’t mean they have to be.

 

Reserves;

Another option is keeping them as Reserves and then coming on from a table edge. Having that 24” bubble from all valid edges means that you can hit anything that moves into your half of the table. Foes that don’t have a fire-base or deploy as a gun-line (Khorne CSM, new Blood Angels, etc.) will be keen to cross the table to hit you in cc. You don’t have to rely on the scatter dice to get into as good a position because they are already coming to you.

Forces that can deploy via flanking moves (Space Wolf Scouts, White Scars, etc.) also deploy in a very forwards position, making them more vulnerable to your reserves.

By keeping them in reserve, you reduce the incoming fire they will suffer from (especially useful on tables without much terrain)

Thirdly, the Land Speeder can be deployed on the table top from T1. This is safer if you have managed to get the 1st Turn, because you will then be able to move in sweet spots before the enemy gets a chance to gun them down. As long as they have been put in a wise position (behind a Land Raider, terrain, etc.) and can weather any incoming fire because of your wise set-up, you can even use this deployment if you haven’t managed to get the 1st Turn.

 

Set-up in the Deployment Phase;

Deploying on the board has an effect in the same vein as what the Vindicator does, albeit less dramatic, and it’s called perceived threat.

The ferocity of it’s gun can alter your foe’s deployment, how he moves and what he shoots at. Being able to get the most deadly shot against Armour within 24” is something that makes your foe think twice. Winning games isn’t just killing him better or claiming more objectives. It is imposing your will on the game and having it played your way. Killing and objectives are just manifestations of that.

Deploying on the table means you aren’t left waiting for nice reserves rolls to bring the Speeder on. It is probable that they will show up by T3, but when they don’t it can scupper your plans. This is never an issue for the already on table Speeder. All you have to do is put them somewhere safe....

 

+++

 

How to keep AV 10 alive?

 

No squadrons;

It is brittle and even light-arms fire can destroy one in a squadron or that has moved flat-out.

Not using them in squadrons is a solid way of reduce enemy fire from getting good value for their shots. An enemy Predator could kill 3 Land Speeders in a unit, but if they are kept as singles, the Predator will never get that opportunity and only get one kill per volley. That immobilised counts as destroyed (when deployed in squadrons) is pretty savage for these already lightweight vehicles.

 

Safety in the pack;

Another tactic is to run multiple pieces of AV 10-12.

The idea is that your foe will have a mix of guns. As you are running many at AV 10-12, his missile launchers and auto cannons will be overworked trying to bring them down, whilst his melta guns and las cannons will find themselves out of range or not enjoying enough volume of fire to be as effective as they are against AV 14.

You flood him with Rhinos, Razorbacks, Drop pods, Dreadnoughts (though they are perhaps a little too pricey, contextually speaking) and Speeders and give him less obvious choices to gun for.

 

+++

 

Typhoon launcher;

Our 4th ed. Typhoon launcher is sadly not up to Ultra Marine quality and we miss out on the very useful 2 krak missiles a turn. One accurate ‘strong’ frag missile attack contributes little to our shooting when compared to the ferocity of the Multi-melta or Heavy flamer.

 

+++

 

Turbo-boosting and Contesting Objectives;

Turbo-boosting cuts down on the shooting that the Speeder can do, which means it will take more incoming fire because it hasn’t reduced the foes potential. Which is counter-productive to the extra 4++ save the Speeder gets from the move. Unless you have a specific aim or nothing else worthwhile to do, don’t turbo-boost without need.

However, it is a decent ploy though for the last turn of the game. The Speeder appears from 24” away to contest an objective, and the extra save is welcome for keeping it alive.

Ironically, contesting objectives is perhaps the most game winning thing this high-powered tank busting, but flimsy, unit can do.

 

+++

 

These are an excellent unit. Like the Assault squad, Speeders require kid gloves to keep them alive. However, they will far out perform anything else is the FAST ATTACK choices. I believe Crusader squads are excellent TROOPS and do well against their equivalent numbers. What they struggle with is Armour. Speeders are an excellent way of bringing highly mobile and effective AT firepower to a Templar army.

 

Yeah I quoted myself :confused:

 

I hope this helps. :teehee:

[ValourousHeart]

In the past I have written several posts that have discussed both Ravenwing and Speeders.

Here are links to two of them.

 

RW Speeder Help

 

Advice for Starting Ravenwing

 

I hope these help in your decision to build a Ravenwing army.

 

I know my position on speeders used in mass quantities is in the minority, but I feel that anyone who tries one of my lists or plays against me will be pleasantly surprised at the effectiveness and competitive level that speeders can perform at... even if they don't decide to drink the cool-aid.

[CrushThem]

Marshal Wilhelm and ValorousHeart, You both have been immensly helpful.

 

@ValorousHeart, I share your views on speeders after reading your rationalizations for using them. I'll be posting a rough draft of my Ravenwing list here before too long and your input would be most appreciated.

 

@Marshal Wilhelm, your tactical analysis was instrumental as far as influencing my soon to be finished army list and I was indeed able to extrapolate ALOT of useful information from your self quoting. lol.

 

All in all, much obliged gentlemen.

 

One more question I have is about the scouting move and deep striking speeders. How does this work and can Ravenwing landspeeders deep strike? How about the whole flanking thing with bikes? How does that work?

 

I'll apologize ahead of time for all my tedious questions, but in all honesty, I learn most effectively this way. Thus far you guys have been a big help. :P

[Okidus]

Speeders can block, bikes cant.

[ValourousHeart]

Ravenwing speeders can not deep strike... that special rule was left out of the units special rules.

The only Ravenwing unit that can deep strike is sammie.

I don't really see this as being a big loss.

Deep Strike is useful for slow units that can't quickly or reliably get across the board. (IE: TDA squads, tactical squads).

 

Speeders can move up to 24" in a single turn, ignoring terrain... so they can reliably get within weapon range in a single turn to anywhere on the board.

 

Outflanking is quite simple as far as I understand it.

But there was a strong disagreement about this topic when the codex first came out.

It was so bad that the MODS had to close every post in which this topic came up.

Hopefully this doesn't start that mess again...

 

In order to outflank the entire attack squadron must be held in reserves.

This includes the speeder (which can not outflank, as it does not have the scout/infiltrate USR), because of the box on page 27 of C:DA states that they are deployed at the same time.

 

On turn 2+, roll a single die for the entire attack squadron to see if it becomes available.

According to the BRB for units held in reserve each are rolled for separately, however since the codex says that they are deployed at the same time, this seems to trump the BRB, that is why I believe that there is only a single roll made.

 

Roll for outflank side for each element that is making use of the rule. (bikes and attack bike only)

The rules for the squadron only state that they all are to be deployed at the same time, but no mention is made that they all have to be within a certain radius of each other.

As such the side the bikes and attack bike come in from is determined individually.

 

Since the speeder does not have either scout or infiltrate, it may not out flank, it may only enter play via the player board edge.

 

Assuming that you are playing a standard mission from the BRB, your player side will be one of the long board edges.

The outflank roll will determine which short board edge your units will be coming from (Left 12, Right 34, either left/right 56).

[njm3]

Written for BT players, but I trust you can extrapolate what is of DA use :yes:

...

Turbo-boosting and Contesting Objectives;

Turbo-boosting cuts down on the shooting that the Speeder can do, which means it will take more incoming fire because it hasn’t reduced the foes potential. Which is counter-productive to the extra 4++ save the Speeder gets from the move...

 

Where is the "Land Speeders can turbo-boost" rule? Is it in the codex? The BRB lists bikes and jetbikes on 76.

[Firedrake28]

Written for BT players, but I trust you can extrapolate what is of DA use ;)

...

Turbo-boosting and Contesting Objectives;

Turbo-boosting cuts down on the shooting that the Speeder can do, which means it will take more incoming fire because it hasn’t reduced the foes potential. Which is counter-productive to the extra 4++ save the Speeder gets from the move...

 

Where is the "Land Speeders can turbo-boost" rule? Is it in the codex? The BRB lists bikes and jetbikes on 76.

 

They actually can't turbo boost, but they are capable of "moving fast" and get a cover save for the Skimmers Moving Fast rule. Most people just call it Turbo Boost though, despite the rules being different.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

@Marshal Wilhelm, your tactical analysis was instrumental as far as influencing my soon to be finished army list and I was indeed able to extrapolate ALOT of useful information from your self quoting. lol.

 

All in all, much obliged gentlemen.

 

You are welcome. :D

I had gone to the trouble of compiling my theories and experiences, and thought, if they are of use, then share them ^_^

Anything to make my fellow B&Cites even better! :P

 

Written for BT players, but I trust you can extrapolate what is of DA use ;)

...

Turbo-boosting and Contesting Objectives;

Turbo-boosting cuts down on the shooting that the Speeder can do, which means it will take more incoming fire because it hasn’t reduced the foes potential. Which is counter-productive to the extra 4++ save the Speeder gets from the move...

 

Where is the "Land Speeders can turbo-boost" rule? Is it in the codex? The BRB lists bikes and jetbikes on 76.

 

Oops. That is my mistake. A problem from knowing what I mean, knowing what things are, growing up through different editions and such things. ;)

 

Firedrake28 could see that what I wrote was not what I meant at all but something else. ;) You didn't try to read my mind? :P

 

I will edit the original.

 

Grazie chaps ;)

[njm3]

gotcha. p71, shooting at skimmers

 

Was wondering where in the maelstrom that rule was. putting together an army, and it was "bikes or speeders"... "bikes or speeders"... "bikes have turbo-boost, but hey, what happened to speeders getting a save from going real fast like? musta been last edition....". But it isn't, just in a different spot

[breng77]

I can say after a weekend where I won a tourney with had 3 Multi-melta typhoon speeders, they are invaluable in my list. I won 2 out of my 5 games on last turn speeder objective contesting. The key is to have a lot of other seemingly more threatening targets on the board so people do not worry so much about the speeders.

[CrushThem]

Given all the information you guys have bestowed upon me, I concocted a rough draft of a Ravenwing force with all the idea's i've extrapolated (love that word now) from your combined posts. If you gentlemen would be so inclined, i'd like to hear your thoughts on what i've come up with. Any and all constructive criticism is welcome and encouraged.

 

 

 

1500pt Ravenwing Force

 

HQ

Sammail in MoRW speeder

 

TROOPS

Ravenwing Attack Squadron #1 (command squad)

6 bikers, 2 x w/ Plasma guns, Sgt w/ plasma pistol and powerweapon, Apothecary, Attack bike w/Multi-melta, Landspeeder (AC, HB)

 

Ravenwing Attack Squadron #2

6 bikers, 2 x w/ Melta guns, Sgt w/ power weapon, Attack bike w/ Multi-melta, Landspeeder (AC, HB)

 

Ravenwing Attack Squadron #3

3 bikers, 1 x w/Melta gun, 1 x w/Flamer, Attack bike w/ Multi-melta

 

FAST ATTACK

Landspeeder w/ HB and Typhoon

 

Landspeeder w/ Multi-Melta and Heavy Flamer

 

Landspeeder w/ Multi-Melta and Assault Cannon

 

 

 

Army totals out to just under 1500 points. I figured I'd have a nice spread of weapons and plenty of small (very small in fact) zippy units that can all target independently and thus be targeted independently. I plan on flanking with all the bikes, while having the speeders set up behind cover in the deployment zone, ready to move in unison towards the flank I end up coming in at. If i'm not mistaken (please tell me if I am), the idea is to bring the entirety of my force to bear on a small portion of the enemy army, annihilate it, and move away to engage another section. More or less, destroy them piecemeal if possible. Anywho, I'd really love some feedback on this, and I imagine i'll get some interesting and most informative feedback. Thanks in advance you guys. All you guys have been a huge help. Look forward to reading the good word from my fellow Dark Angels.

[CrushThem]

Well, I guess since nobody's said anything, that its good to go from here huh?

[breng77]

Here are my initial thoughts.

 

I would drop the plasma pistol off the command squad it is just over priced.

 

Squad 3 should either be 2 flamers or 2 meltas not one of each. I would be tempted to give them 2 meltas and switch squad 2 to 2 flamers so that they can weaken the opponent more before you assault.

 

I am not a big fan of 100 point speeders, or HF MM speeders, I would probably go with all 3 FA speeders a MM/ Typhoon, It makes them fairly cheap and dual purpose

[Grand Master Raziel]

CrushThem, my main concern with your list is the Speeders with the assault cannons. At 100pts a pop, those things are just too damn expensive for what they do and how fragile they are. They've got less shots than a dakka Pred, which also has far better armor. I recommend dropping the Speeders attached to your Attack Squadrons entirely, and ditch the AC attached to your support Speeder in favor of a heavy flamer or Typhoon launcher. Use the points saved to buy yourself another 3-bike Attack Squadron (I'd give it paired meltas) and another MM AB. Or, get yourself a couple of dakka Preds, for long-range fire support and to give your opponents something else besides Sammael to shoot their heavy anti-tank guns at.

 

I agree with breng77's points on squad comp. If you're going to run a unit in close to flame opponents, it should also be able to charge them to good effect, so it might be a good idea to throw 2 flamers into Squad 2. A unit with 2 meltaguns won't often need to charge their targets, so you can get away with having that unit be small.

 

I disagree with breng77 on the MM+HF Speeders. I really don't much like the Typhoon, but I will say the Typhoon does have a good standoff range, so the only return fire you have to worry about is long-range stuff. If only we had the Codex: Space Marine Typhoon launcher!

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I don't play Ravenwing type lists, and am just slowly getting interested in the full shebang. I can't really critique your list :lol: .... yet ;)

 

Here is a link; 3++ is the new black.

Kirby and a few others go into bike lists and what they can and can't do.

 

There is a search function on the blog, so try "bikes" or "ravenwing" and see how you go.

 

Between 3++ and Yes The Truth Hurts and here, that is where most of my learnt gaming wisdom for 5th ed has come from. Jawaballs and BoLS helped me initially. So it's horses for courses, so to speak :P

 

+++

 

This is my theoryhammer on your list:

Don't take plasma on bikes. You know how you get sad-faced when a Marine dies from his own gun? It is even worse when a Biker does it as he costs much more - Melta gun or Flamer for me.

 

I think the MM AC Speeder might be a bit confused, the AC keeps you out of MELTA RANGE.

I do recommend the MM HF variant - but that is because they are both moving in close and cover one another's weaknesses.

Give the MM AC Speeder a try, after all, if it works for you then it works! But just keep an eye on it (which you should do with all units) and monitor its progress.

[breng77]

My biggest reason for not liking MM HF is that I like my speeders living for most of the game, and getting in flamer range almost guarantees that they will die. The Typhoon is not a great weapon by any means, I just like the ability to keep my speeders back against horde armies instead of getting one HF shot off and then getting scrapped by an assault.

[ValourousHeart]

@ Crushthem,

 

I think the list is good, but I think you would be better served if you either went with 2 TML speeders or 2 HF speeders.... and even though I don't really like the HF speeder I am leaning that way for your list. With two of the same they can better support each other and it also gives you a back up. Some call it spam... I like to think of it as redundancy or insurance. And Like they said in GI Jane... "we work in pairs, 2 is 1, 1 is none."

 

My first bit of advice for how to be successful with RW is to come up with a good target priority list and stick to it. That usually entails busting transports and anything else that is fast, like other speeders. This helps keep your speed advantage.

 

My second bit of advice is to play man defense, not zone. What I mean by this is don't use this or that unit to control this quadrant or even send this 500 pts to deal with that 500 pts.... instead use these 8 models to kill those 8 models. My 1k list has 17 models (2 full RAS + sammie... sometimes the speeders get moved to FA so they can take MM/AC instead) and what I have found is that those 17 models are more than a match for any other 17 models that can be fit into a 1k list. Most lists are going to have more than 17 models just in their 2 required troop choices. So just make sure that you out number him and it will always be a clean sweep.

 

As you move to 1750, expand the 3rd bike squad to 6 and add the HB/AC speeder. And on up from there I would build a 4th bike squad armed like the melta gun bike squad. I would add the speeder to that 4th bike squad as well, but that is up to you if you want that many speeders.

 

 

CrushThem, my main concern with your list is the Speeders with the assault cannons. At 100pts a pop, those things are just too damn expensive for what they do and how fragile they are. They've got less shots than a dakka Pred, which also has far better armor. I recommend

 

@ GM Raziel,

 

Sorry but I have to laugh when someone says oh 100 points is expensive... you should spend 100 points. Not to offend you, but you may have noticed that he is running a pure RW list. If your suggestion is based on the opinion that pure RW sucks and he should therefore run something akin to a White Scar list, then I am afraid that you are greatly mistaken by the power of RW.

 

Speeders are a necessary and useful part of RW. But they require some investment from the player to be successful with them. First off the player has to make the choice that speeders are what they want in the list. By your comments it appears that you would always rather have a dacca pred instead. And it is perhaps due to that preference that you have such a low opinion of speeders. After all it doesn't take a genius to figure out that a speeder can't take the role of a dacca pred... but the reverse is true as well. With a well oiled RW that is designed to be speeder heavy, you will quickly find that the list just doesn't work as well when you try to just exchange the speeders for preds. You have messed up the formula and have to start the list building over with preds in mind, not speeders.

 

In speaking with other members of this forum who claim as you do that speeders (especially AC armed speeders) are too expensive I have found that they have never fielded more than 4 (most haven't fielded more than 2). After speaking with them further I have found that they can't even gather 10 from all the players in their gaming club. (BTW I have 15 in my personal collection, but my birthday is coming up and I plan to get more) From that and my personal experience playing with speeders and against them is that the truth is that people tend not to spend enough on speeders instead of spending to much. One or two speeders will always get torn apart if played aggressively, and at best they will increase the performance of another unit. But they won't look that good when the examination of their own performance is viewed in isolation as opposed to the big picture view.

 

A swarm (I prefer murder) of speeders is a different animal altogether. They can out maneuver and usually out gun whatever they are facing in my experience, especially when applying the model for model rule I mentioned above. And even if I do loose one, what I have lost is minimal in comparison to what I have destroyed.

 

 

I think the MM AC Speeder might be a bit confused, the AC keeps you out of MELTA RANGE.

I do recommend the MM HF variant - but that is because they are both moving in close and cover one another's weaknesses.

Give the MM AC Speeder a try, after all, if it works for you then it works! But just keep an eye on it (which you should do with all units) and monitor its progress.

 

@ Marshal Wilhelm,

 

I am not sure how you get that the AC keeps you out of melta range? The reason I feel that the MM/AC speeder is better than the MM/HF speeder is based on target selection and weapon effectiveness. The MM/HF speeder is faster than the MM/AC speeder, because there is never a reason to go 6" or less a turn because the two weapons are useless against the other weapons targets. The best the HF can do is glance AV11, so it is not at all good for tank hunting. The MM can only ever kill one guy per shot, which is not very good vs infantry... in addition you have to slow down to shoot both and since you will be less than 8" away you are going to get charged by the survivors and you are better off making them hit you on 6's than 4's.

 

The MM/AC is different. There is no need to go fast, unless there is no targets in range... but since you are typically hard pressed to not find a target within 30" of a speeder I usually don't find only moving 6" to be a problem. Both MM & AC can pen av 14, and nothing is stopping you from getting within 12" to get the MM bonus... but by the math and practical experience I find that 5 shots to be more effective than just one. Also the number of shots the AC gets makes the MM actually useful vs infantry... again 5 shots are better than 1. I do understand that the HF can hit more than 5 models, but also consider that the MM/AC speeder is more likely going to get to shoot 2 times to the 1 shot that the MM/HF is going to get vs the named target. So a more fair assessment is to compare the 1 MM shot + 1 flamer template to 2 MM shots + 8 AC shots.

 

I would also like to add that my 3 MM/AC speeders are typically targeted before my HB/AC speeders, sammie, or my attack bikes, and that the AC is always the first weapon destroyed. You would think that they would want to knock out my MMs first... but they don't. Quite telling IMO as to what people see as the real threat.